Too Much Emphasis on Mechanics?

[softshot]

If everyone gets actively invoved, this could turn into a 'drag out'.:wink:

Maybe someone should define certain vernaculars & parameters:

'Follow through' vs. finishing the stroke

This is the entire crux of the misunderstanding.

Follow Through = what the tip does continuing forward after contact

Finish = what your body does when you reach the end of a range of motion

A pendulum stroke "Finishes" when the hand reaches the chest. Follow through is irrelevant to a pendulum stroke. you either finished or you didn't

same with a 3 or 4 point snooker style eventually the range of motion stops or you lose one of your cue contacts

in a piston style stroke ( most self taught players fall into this category) the end of the range of motion (finish) is a fencing style thrust with the arm fully extended .. like some pro's at the end of a break shot.. this is where the Idea of controlling your follow through comes from. this is the only school of thought where it's even an option.. the merits of which could be debated.

there I hope I separated some of the Apples from some of the Oranges

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is the entire crux of the misunderstanding.

Follow Through = what the tip does continuing forward after contact

Finish = what your body does when you reach the end of a range of motion

A pendulum stroke "Finishes" when the hand reaches the chest. Follow through is irrelevant to a pendulum stroke. you either finished or you didn't

same with a 3 or 4 point snooker style eventually the range of motion stops or you lose one of your cue contacts

in a piston style stroke ( most self taught players fall into this category) the end of the range of motion (finish) is a fencing style thrust with the arm fully extended .. like some pro's at the end of a break shot.. this is where the Idea of controlling your follow through comes from. this is the only school of thought where it's even an option.. the merits of which could be debated.

there I hope I separated some of the Apples from some of the Oranges

Thanks for that.

But see, I doubt that many would refer to 'follow through' as what the tip does. I think most would consider it an action of the shooter not the tip. Vernacular?

Thanks again for attempting to sort out the apples vs. the oranges.

Regards,

 

[One Pocket John]

Question for the instructors and high level players.

For the different level players, beginner, intermediate, advanced, what aspect of their game is typically weakest ? What aspect of their game should they spend practicing most to see the most and quickest improvement ?

I know everyone is different, but I imagine experienced instructors see a general pattern after working with different students over the years.

The original question on this thread. Is it mechanics, CB control, patterns, mental, strategy, etc. ?

The fundamentals (pre-shot routine), visualization and quiet eyes.:wink:

John

 

[ronscuba]

[/B]


The fundamentals (pre-shot routine), visualization and quiet eyes.:wink:

John

For all level of players ?

Makes sense for beginners. I would think intermediate and advanced players would need less emphasis on these things ?

 

[softshot]

But see, I doubt that many would refer to 'follow through' as what the tip does. I think most would consider it an action of the shooter not the tip. Vernacular?
,

I don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion..

Q:what is following? A:the tip

Q:what is the tip following? A: it's initial trajectory

Q:what is the tip following it's initial trajectory through? A: The space occupied by Cue Ball

Analysis: the tip follows through the cue ball..

what does the shooter follow through?

 

[CJ Wiley]

the difference is the{shots} still go in the pocket.

Could you explain this further? I am curious if it is backed up by science or if this is your opinion.

Thank you

Ken

It is certainly backed up by obvious results, so yes, that would be classified as science, and it's easily demonstrated on the table.

When it comes to pool, if something is effective I use it and if it's not {effective} I don't use it. When you play pool for a living it stops being a "scientific experiment," and the only thing that matters is playing the game as well as possible. Many things that are commonly taught don't hold up under the scrutiny of competition. It may "look good" on paper, however, that "paper" and a dollar will still only buy a cup of coffee. (it used to be a quarter)

Hal Mix (Nick Varner's old coach) is the one that pointed out the things I'm sharing about follow through. It made a great impact on my game because he showed me an example that summed it all up. I still use the EXACT same shot in my lesson to prove the same point.

Extended follow through amplifies the spin after contacting the cue ball. This also (from my experience) amplifies errors, and that is not something anyone will find useful, especially under pressure. Even the greatest players in the world miss shots, the difference is the{shots} still go in the pocket. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

when competing, after all, you want your opponent to miss as much as possible

Well, like you said, CJ, different strokes.... I know I can make some very low percentage shots with lots of spin with an extended follow through, and it never ceases to amaze me how much easier it is, so I'm definitely confused as to why someone would want to extend their follow through to give the impression that they're an inferior player. I'd be looking to hide something like that as an ace in the hole.

My extended follow through shots do mostly require a shoulder drop. Oops....did I say a bad thing? (That wasn't meant for you, CJ)

Just to be clear, I don't purposely extend my follow through "to give the impression that I'm an inferior player".....it's when I'm giving a spot (handicap), so they definitely know I'm the superior player. I extend my follow though because I know they are studying me, looking to "pick up something" to use against me.

I just supply the wrong "something" and hope they follow suit (which they ultimately do) and start following through further as well. What they don't notice is I'm doing it after the fact.....I'm accelerating through the cue ball, THEN extending my follow through. It's very "miss" leading, and purposely so......when competing, after all, you want your opponent to miss as much as possible. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion..

Q:what is following? A:the tip

Q:what is the tip following? A: it's initial trajectory

Q:what is the tip following it's initial trajectory through? A: The space occupied by Cue Ball

Analysis: the tip follows through the cue ball..

what does the shooter follow through?

You are loooking at it from a different perspective than what I would think most people would 'look' at it & understand it. One does not tell the tip that you are not following through & one does not tell the tip to follow through.

One usually speaks to the shooter within those terms. When a golfer has an abbreviated 'finish' to their swing. A golf teacher might tell them to 'follow all the way through, don't stop when your hands are here, bring them all the way to here'. An instructor does not speak to the club head or the tip.

As I said it is a difference in perspective & the associated vernacular. Much of the argumentative 'discussion' on AZB is due to vernacular.

You perceive it as finishing the stroke so the tip follows through. Others might perceive it as them 'following through' with the stroke so the tip extends through.

Apples & oranges? Or...just a diferent way of saying the same thing?

Regards,

 

[Neil]

Question for the instructors and high level players.

For the different level players, beginner, intermediate, advanced, what aspect of their game is typically weakest ? What aspect of their game should they spend practicing most to see the most and quickest improvement ?

I know everyone is different, but I imagine experienced instructors see a general pattern after working with different students over the years.

The original question on this thread. Is it mechanics, CB control, patterns, mental, strategy, etc. ?

Beginner- mechanics, aiming, cb control, patterns, mental, strategy.

Intermediate- mechanics, cb control, strategy, mental, patterns.

Advanced- mental, mechanics, cb control, strategy, patterns

 

[CJ Wiley]

Hitting every shot like it is a "stop shot" isn't a bad idea

To the extent that the cue stick arrives in the same place and at the same speed, etc. what happens to the cue stick after the cue ball leaves the cue tip cannot have any effect whatsoever. Imagine a sniper who shoots off your ferrule just after the ball has left the tip. Shrapnel aside, the destruction of your ferrule cannot have any effect.

Developing a smooth, consistent stroke and avoiding snipers has other advantages.

"To the extent that the cue stick arrives in the same place and at the same speed, etc."

Playing in a real competitive situation, you will rarely find yourself following through to the same place, at the same speed, unless you're hitting a "stop shot".

Hitting every shot like it is a "stop shot" isn't a bad idea (when possible) and there's not much tenancy to extend follow through on a "stop shot". Acceleration is the key to consistency, so if you do extend your follow though, it's best used on the break shot.

 

[Neil]

It is certainly backed up by obvious results, so yes, that would be classified as science, and it's easily demonstrated on the table.

When it comes to pool, if something is effective I use it and if it's not {effective} I don't use it. When you play pool for a living it stops being a "scientific experiment," and the only thing that matters is playing the game as well as possible. Many things that are commonly taught don't hold up under the scrutiny of competition. It may "look good" on paper, however, that "paper" and a dollar will still only buy a cup of coffee. (it used to be a quarter)

Hal Mix (Nick Varner's old coach) is the one that pointed out the things I'm sharing about follow through. It made a great impact on my game because he showed me an example that summed it all up. I still use the EXACT same shot in my lesson to prove the same point.

Extended follow through amplifies the spin after contacting the cue ball. This also (from my experience) amplifies errors, and that is not something anyone will find useful, especially under pressure. Even the greatest players in the world miss shots, the difference is the{shots} still go in the pocket. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I suggest you read post # 58 again.

 

[Slasher]

After much reading on AZ and soul searching I now use smoke and mirrors, I'm on the road to success :thumbup:

 

[Okie]

It is certainly backed up by obvious results, so yes, that would be classified as science, and it's easily demonstrated on the table.

When it comes to pool, if something is effective I use it and if it's not {effective} I don't use it. When you play pool for a living it stops being a "scientific experiment," and the only thing that matters is playing the game as well as possible. Many things that are commonly taught don't hold up under the scrutiny of competition. It may "look good" on paper, however, that "paper" and a dollar will still only buy a cup of coffee. (it used to be a quarter)

Hal Mix (Nick Varner's old coach) is the one that pointed out the things I'm sharing about follow through. It made a great impact on my game because he showed me an example that summed it all up. I still use the EXACT same shot in my lesson to prove the same point.

Extended follow through amplifies the spin after contacting the cue ball. This also (from my experience) amplifies errors, and that is not something anyone will find useful, especially under pressure. Even the greatest players in the world miss shots, the difference is the{shots} still go in the pocket. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Thank you for sharing your opinion!

Ken

 

[Okie]

To the extent that the cue stick arrives in the same place and at the same speed, etc. what happens to the cue stick after the cue ball leaves the cue tip cannot have any effect whatsoever. Imagine a sniper who shoots off your ferrule just after the ball has left the tip. Shrapnel aside, the destruction of your ferrule cannot have any effect.

Developing a smooth, consistent stroke and avoiding snipers has other advantages.

That is exactly what I have learned through various threads here. We had the good thread talking about contact time which I felt really clarified the impact of the cue to the cue ball.

We might need to investigate the effects of a sniper a bit further though. I really think the shrapnel could have a substantial influence on the cue ball!

Excellent information! Thank you!

Ken

 

[CJ Wiley]

Thank you for sharing your opinion!

Ken

Your welcome :thumbup:

 

[ronscuba]

Beginner- mechanics, aiming, cb control, patterns, mental, strategy.

Intermediate- mechanics, cb control, strategy, mental, patterns.

Advanced- mental, mechanics, cb control, strategy, patterns

Surprised on mechanics being ahead of CB control for intermediates. I consider myself beginner/intermediate.

For myself and others at my level, it seems like mechanics and pocketing are not perfect, but solid and CB control would be the area that needs the most improvement. Maybe this is just my inaccurate perception of myself. It's not always easy to self evaluate.

 

[randyg]

Surprised on mechanics being ahead of CB control for intermediates. I consider myself beginner/intermediate.

For myself and others at my level, it seems like mechanics and pocketing are not perfect, but solid and CB control would be the area that needs the most improvement. Maybe this is just my inaccurate perception of myself. It's not always easy to self evaluate.

Ronscuba

Mechanic control the cue ball.

Until a student of the game can control the white ball they must learn to control the stick.

randyg

 

[ronscuba]

Ronscuba

Mechanic control the cue ball.

Until a student of the game can control the white ball they must learn to control the stick.

randyg

I guess I mistakenly link mechanics only with pocketing. I tend to think of CB control being associated with CB speed control by feel and CB direction control by knowledge of english, collision angles, etc.. I've never considered that stroke mechanics can have a big affect on CB control.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I guess I mistakenly link mechanics only with pocketing. I tend to think of CB control being associated with CB speed control by feel and CB direction control by knowledge of english, collision angles, etc.. I've never considered that stroke mechanics can have a big affect on CB control.

If you are trying to draw the ball and you don't hit the right distance below center, there is little hope of drawing back to the right place. Similarly, if you are trying to spin a little off the cushion and your stroke hits a lot off-center, the cue ball will not go where you want.

For draw in particular, it is impossible to get any feel for the force necessary if you never hit the same height twice.

I think that even for simple, rolling follow shots, if you don't set up consistently -- for example with the same bridge length and grip position -- for a specific shot, it is very difficult to control the distance accurately.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is a true statement, Randy

Ronscuba

Mechanic control the cue ball.

Until a student of the game can control the white ball they must learn to control the stick.

randyg

This is a true statement, Randy, when a player isn't connected to the cue consistently they have little chance of controlling the cue ball consistently.