Top english change to draw after bounces of bottom rail

ENGLISH! said:
Sorry to disagree, but a rolling ball does not 'convert' to Engish over spin after a collision.
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Yes, in fact it does - that's what follow is. Overspin means it "peels out" on the cloth like a tire peeling out on pavement. When a rolling CB hits an OB full its forward momentum is stopped (transferred to the OB) and the only thing that then carries it forward is its overspin.

It is not difficult 'for me' to put overspin english on a cue ball.
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Yes, in fact it is (without hitting something like an OB or rail to kill the CB's forward momentum). It's physically difficult for anybody because the upper miscue limit on the CB is a very small distance above the "natural roll" contact point, and any small amount of overspin is quickly worn off by friction with the cloth.

Here's one of Mike Page's excellent videos that explains in more detail:

"Is maximum topspin overspin?"

pj
chgo
 
Maybe someone can try this & video it & post if you can do it & it works. I don't have the capability to video at this time & besides I'm a tech idiot. I would probably send it to the alien inside of the cue ball.

If I were going to purposely attempt to shoot this shot, I think I might try it like this. I would shoot HARD into the rail with maximum low draw stroke english. The draw going away from you is 'top spin' when looked at from the other side of the table. The OP had a little difficulty differentiating some things in the OP.

If there is angle on the shot, shooting hard low will reduce the rebound angle. Shooting hard alway makes it more dificult, at least for me, to get the correct hit on the OB. But I think this might be an option.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, in fact it does - that's what follow is. Overspin means it "peels out" on the cloth like a tire peeling out on pavement. When a rolling CB hits an OB full its forward momentum is stopped (transferred to the OB) and the only thing that then carries it forward is its overspin.


Yes, in fact it is (without hitting something like an OB or rail to kill the CB's forward momentum). It's physically difficult for anybody because the upper miscue limit on the CB is a very small distance above the "natural roll" contact point, and any small amount of overspin is quickly worn off by friction with the cloth.

Here's one of Mike Page's excellent videos that explains in more detail:

"Is maximum topspin overspin?"

pj
chgo
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WOW. We agree for the 2nd. time. BUT... the scenario that we're 'talking' about HERE is FORCED follow. SO now, you're implying that I am a liar again & you're implying that I can't hit a FORCED follow shot. I've been playing pool for 45 years & shooting with ENGLISH from day ONE(1).

On the second matter we again disagree. Have you NEVER seen a breakshot hit the head ball, dead center, stun or even recoil a little & then SPIN thru the rack area?

I'm going to ask you again, How many years of pool playing experience do you have? Or, do you even play pool at all? Or, are you simply enrolled in a billiards 'school'?

Like some others on here, you're either incomplete or inaccurate in certain aspects of your replies & then you draw an appropriate conclusion based on the 'scene' you've set up. If this... then this. You then appear 'knowledgable'. But you are incomplete in your knowledge which makes you LACKING in knowledge! Or... you just try to 'stir up' an argument ON PURPOSE. I don't know you & you certainly do not know me. If I'm wrong about you I apolgize. If you are truly knowledgable, then I think you should choose your words more carefully so that you do not mis-lead the less knowledgeable & imply things that quite simply are not true.
 
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dr_dave said:
FYI, here's another video (with super slow motion video evidence):

and more info and resources on this topic can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
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Dave, do you have a HSV of a cue ball hit hard with follow after it contacts a rail fairly straight on (i.e. full without benefit of having already picked up over-spin from contacting an OB)? I'd be curious to know how that compares to the over-spin created when hitting an OB full. The question of course, is can there be enough "draw" spin coming off the rail to produce a significant amount of draw off a ball being kicked at?
 
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ENGLISH!:
...a rolling ball does not 'convert' to Engish over spin after a collision.
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Me:
Yes, in fact it does - that's what follow is. Overspin means it "peels out" on the cloth like a tire peeling out on pavement. When a rolling CB hits an OB full its forward momentum is stopped (transferred to the OB) and the only thing that then carries it forward is its overspin.
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ENGLISH!
...the scenario that we're 'talking' about here is FORCED follow.
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"Force follow" is nothing more than a follow shot hit harder.

ENGLISH!:
It is not difficult 'for me' to put overspin english on a cue ball.
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Me:
Yes, in fact it is (without hitting something like an OB or rail to kill the CB's forward momentum). It's physically difficult for anybody because the upper miscue limit on the CB is a very small distance above the "natural roll" contact point, and any small amount of overspin is quickly worn off by friction with the cloth.
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ENGLISH!:
...Have you never seen a breakshot hit the head ball, dead center, stun or even recoil a little & then SPIN thru the rack area.
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That's force follow, otherwise known as "a [fast] rolling ball converting to overspin after collision". (Note my qualifying comment in blue above.)

We're having some trouble with terminology, but you're also simply mistaken about one or two things.

pj
chgo
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Dave, do you have a HSV of a cue ball hit hard with follow after it contacts a rail fairly straight on (i.e. full without benefit of having already picked up over-spin from contacting an OB)? I'd be curious to know how that compares to the over-spin created when hitting an OB full. The question of course, is can there be enough "draw" spin coming off the rail to produce a significant amount of draw off a ball being kicked at?
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The following video includes this case:

With typical conditions, a ball rolling into the rail comes out with stun.

Here's an example shot where this effect is used:

However, with really slick cloth and/or a Silicone-sprayed CB, the CB will retain some of the topspin into the rail, which acts like bottom spin off the rail.

Other videos on this topic can be found at the bottom of the following resource page section:

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
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Pic for clarity

Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

kickshot.jpg

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, here's another video (with super slow motion video evidence):

and more info and resources on this topic can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
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Thanks Dr. Dave. I don't know when you did your fricton strip / wax paper 'experiment', but I think you will probably agree that those items 'changed' the perameters from what is the reality. A cue ball on a piece of friction paper on a piece of wax paper is not a cue ball on a 'tight' 'felt' cloth . I also believe if you look closely at that video, the cue ball is launching into the air a little. Probably due to you 'bridging' on the rail & hitting hard with a slight downward stroke, a mini jump shot.

I particularly enjoyed the 2nd. video. Thanks again.
 
ENGLISH! said:
dr_dave said:
FYI, here's another video (with super slow motion video evidence):

and more info and resources on this topic can be found here:
Click to expand...
Thanks Dr. Dave.
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You're welcome.

ENGLISH! said:
I don't know when you did your fricton strip / wax paper 'experiment', but I think you will probably agree that those items 'changed' the perameters from what is the reality.
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It sounds like you are referring to Mike Page's video. I didn't use wax paper in my video. Regardless, the message of both videos (with or without wax paper) is the same: overspin off the tip is not very likely. Although,overspin is quite common off an object ball with a follow shot.

ENGLISH! said:
... if you look closely at that video, the cue ball is launching into the air a little
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The CB usually hops on follow shots, even with a near-level cue, due to slight cue elevation required to clear the rails. Downward squirt also contributes to the effect. For more info and demos, see:

ENGLISH! said:
I particularly enjoyed the 2nd. video. Thanks again.
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You're welcome. I'm glad you liked it.

Regards,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

View attachment 233879

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
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Read the thread. I've already explained what I thought he meant as a means to try & clarify his meaning. Your diagram is certainly not he same as I took him to mean. If you had the ability to diagram it , why didn't you do a long time ago in an attempt to clarify it, as I tried to do?

PS Please see the 2nd. video of Dr. Daves recent post in this thread. Also please see my observations regard his 1st. video.
 
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There was a thread 5 years ago which is, I think, relevant. I don't remember how to give a direct link to a specific thread, but search for the title "Check out this shot...for the out" by ericyow.
 
dr_dave said:
You're welcome.

It sounds like you are referring to Mike Page's video. I didn't use wax paper in my video. Regardless, the message of both videos (with or without wax paper) is the same: overspin off the tip is not very likely. Although,overspin is quite common off an object ball with a follow shot.

The CB usually hops on follow shots, even with a near-level cue, due to slight cue elevation required to clear the rails. Downward squirt also contributes to the effect. For more info and demos, see:

You're welcome. I'm glad you liked it.

Regards,
Dave
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Apparently we do not completely concur. It is probably due to semantics or defininition or MISdefiniton. I can not believe that you are saying that a cue ball 'developes' more ' top spin' by a coilision with a statationary OB of the exact same mass & diameter. Yes the 'OVERspin' is 'in place' briefly due to the collission (Is that what you mean by 'OVERspin'?) before the spin & friction interact & the ball then spins forward as they interact. BUT... the cue ball is obviously doing a combination of rolling & 'top spinning' or a degree of 'OVERspinnig' relative to the roll rate of spin as it moves across the table. If that is not your perception, please explain how you perceive a cue ball 'developes' any 'more' spin relative to itself by a coilision with an OB of equal mass & diameter. No, never mind, I get it you're not saying that. It IS all in the vernacular. I'm 'talking' POOL TALK & physics & you're talking only PHYSICS. I've been out of college TOO long. However, I believe that I can put 'top', 'over' spin on a cue ball. AND if I believe that I can, I can. EVEN IF I ACTUALLY CAN NOT DO IT OR ONLY MAYBE DO IT A VERY LITTLE BIT. Again, thanks. Now I have to go apologize.
 
dr_dave said:
The following video includes this case:

With typical conditions, a ball rolling into the rail comes out with stun.

Here's an example shot where this effect is used:

However, with really slick cloth and/or a Silicone-sprayed CB, the CB will retain some of the topspin into the rail, which acts like bottom spin off the rail.



I hope that helps,
Dave
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Thanks, Dave. What I conclude from your video (HSVB15) is that under normal conditions you can't really convert any follow into significant draw coming off the rail. Same when hitting into the rail with draw under normal conditions - the backspin coming off the rail is slight at best. Even with unusually or artificially slick conditions, the amount of backspin on the cue ball seems fairly low.

Essentially, under normal conditions the rail seems to convert the cue ball to stun, more or less to a small extent.

Appreciate it! :grin-square:
 
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ENGLISH!:
Your diagram is certainly not he same as I took him to mean. If you had the ability to diagram it , why didn't you do a long time ago in an attempt to clarify it, as I tried to do?
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Now it's my fault you misunderstood the whole thread? Naji's description was pretty clear to me.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

View attachment 233879

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
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Thanks for the picture.

I think the ball is to far the rail to get it to come back,stop maybe with high.
Now if you can get the ball to bounce off the rail just right like when attempting to get over a ball you might get lucky once in a 100 tries to land just rite and very near the ob ,the cb then might get back to the rail.
And the only reason this would happen because the top spin is on the cb still.Looks like its drawing off the ball but its not draw at all.
 
Public apology to patrick johnson

To: Patrick Johnson
Fm: English, the tech idiot & THE COMMUNICATIONS IDIOT

I believe, no, I know I owe you an apology & I hereby sincerely do so. I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE.

Please see my reply to Dr. Dave's recent post on this thread. I got it. I understand that we have been speaking two(2) somewhat different languages or vernaculars. In your language, that I now understand to be of PURE physics, I HAVE ON OCCASSIONS BEEN WRONG. I have been talking a hybrid physics-pool vernacular. It is obvious that I have MIScommunicated & did what we should never do, I ASSUMED that I was the good guy & that you were the bad guy. I did this due to MIScommunication, not realising that we were 'speaking' two(2) dififerent vernaculars. Again, I APOLOGIZE & ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS. I HOPE YOU CAN FORGIVE ME.

BUT now, I have a question if you are willing to consider it. IF I, with 2 years high school & 2 semesters of college physics did not fully understand, due to my MISunderstanding of the proper PURE physics language being applied to pool, misunderstood your meaning, how many here or coming in here will be totally confused by it, if it is not always declared to be PURE physics 'talk'?

Again, I apologize & sincerely hope You can forgive me.

PS BUT... I have seen the shot, even though I may not have explained it in absolutley pure technically correct physics vernacular.

PSS Now I apologize for the NON caps in the title portion. I wanted to correct them but I don't know how. As I said I'm a tech idiot.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
I can not believe that you are saying that a cue ball 'developes' more ' top spin' by a coilision with a statationary OB of the exact same mass & diameter.
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Nobody is saying that. When the cue ball's forward motion is stopped by the collision, most of the topspin remains creating the overspin effect.

ENGLISH! said:
Yes the 'OVERspin' is 'in place' briefly due to the collission (Is that what you mean by 'OVERspin'?) before the spin & friction interact & the ball then spins forward as they interact. BUT... the cue ball is obviously doing a combination of rolling & 'top spinning' or a degree of 'OVERspinnig' relative to the roll rate of spin as it moves across the table.
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That is correct. The overspin causes the CB to accelerate forward until the CB develops natural forward roll, at which time there is still topspin, but no longer any "overspin."

ENGLISH! said:
However, I believe that I can put 'top', 'over' spin on a cue ball. AND if I believe that I can, I can. EVEN IF I ACTUALLY CAN NOT DO IT OR ONLY MAYBE DO IT A VERY LITTLE BIT.
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You can believe anything you want to believe, especially if it helps your game. However, the videos prove quite convincing that overspin is very difficult to achieve off the tip. Even with a well-struck force follow shot, the cue ball is simply just rolling (albeit with lots of speed and spin) when it strikes the object ball.

ENGLISH! said:
Again, thanks. Now I have to go apologize.
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You're welcome.

Regards,
Dave
 
However, I believe that I can put 'top', 'over' spin on a cue ball. AND if I believe that I can, I can. EVEN IF I ACTUALLY CAN NOT DO IT OR ONLY MAYBE DO IT A VERY LITTLE BIT.

The above was my attempt to be facetious. I guess I failed. I figued it out through the help of your video. It is not 'top spin' like in tennis. It is forward roll that would 'roll out' well past the length of the table if it did not hit anything. Again, maybe said in the wrong vernacular, but I got it.

PS Do you have a video of a ball, with 'back spin' hitting a rail perpendicalar or on a slight angle to the rail?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

View attachment 233879

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
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If that actually is the shot that Mr. Naji is talking about, Then I agree with you. I've never done that & I've never seen that. We were talking about two(2) TOTALLY DIFFERENT SHOTS. I think the confusion may have come from Mr.Naji's difficulty to fully relay the shot. One or more of us is thinking of the wrong shot. It may well be me... or not. Mr. Naji. Is that the shot?
 
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