Top Ten Pool Players

It is just possible that two of the three best all-around players of all time failed to get onto the list.

Nick Varner was a world champion at banks, one pocket, straight pool, eight ball and nine ball. I'd put Nick's career on a par with the likes of Sigel and Lassiter.

Harold Worst owned world championships in both pool and three cushion billiards, and is one of the best cueists ever.

Ronnie Allen doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Nick and Harold.
 
I disagree, I think in the older days the pockets were buckets. Now you have tighter pockets in most of the tournaments. Also, most of the Taiwan top pro players don't even use low squirt shafts so that's a non issue.

I think the competition today is much higher and the safety game has evolved a lot more than what it used to be.

So again, I think new players of today would smoke old players except games like 1 pocket and straight pool and such, Although, Thorsten Hohmann would most likely beat anyone at straight pool in the old days as well. The truth is that pool evolved and the competition got a lot more fierce. If you win a world 9 ball in 2015 I have much more respect for that than winning it in 1990 because you have to beat a lot of better players in 2015 than you would in 1990. Sure there were some good players too in 1990 but no where near as many as today with the invasion of the asian players who learns how to play pool from the time they are a child and have pool classes in their schools and the government pay the pro players... It's big over there, it's like their main sport almost and it's only normal that they are dominating and has become the best players ever.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen, I have seen the old school matches and I have seen these Asian monsters play, they run like 9 packs pretty often with ease.


Totally disagree here. Put today's top Straight Pool players on the equipment we played on in the 70's and 80's and let them play Mizerak, Sigel, Hopkins, Varner and Rempe and I would wish them a lot of luck. Everyone wants to say they played on "buckets" because it sounds good and makes for a better argument. Truth be known many tournaments were played on 4.5" pocket Gold Crowns with straight cut pockets. Definitely not buckets! Al Conte set up all the World Championships that way for years. The Biltmore Hotel event in 1987 was played on Peter Vitalie tables that were far tougher than any tables used today. Sigel beat Buddy in the finals.

Greenleaf was a legend, still revered decades after he died. Mosconi controlled the cue ball as good or better than Efren or anyone else for that matter. He shot straight too! Efren and Worst played all games well, including Three Cushion and Snooker. Who can do that today?

No one today this side of Larry Nevel and Mike Massey has a powerful stroke like the Miz had (with perfect control). And Steve had an equally soft touch too. Sigel never lost if he got to the finals (won eleven finals in a row at one point in his career). Parica was unbeatable for the cash. Even Buddy ducked him. The Parica of 20 years ago would have to spot all of today's champions, giving games on the wire playing Ten Ball.

Both Efren and Parica would run over anyone today at full rack Rotation, including all the Taiwan whiz kids. They knew the game better than these guys. I've seen all this with my own eyes. Lassiter wouldn't miss a ball for hours! Caras and Crane would tie you up in knots! These guys were the real deal. Not to say that today's players are inferior, because they're not. But today's best players are NOT all better than the legends of the game. I still have yet to see anyone who plays Ronnie's speed at One Pocket, with only Efren in the same league.
 
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It is just possible that two of the three best all-around players of all time failed to get onto the list.

Nick Varner was a world champion at banks, one pocket, straight pool, eight ball and nine ball. I'd put Nick's career on a par with the likes of Sigel and Lassiter.

Harold Worst owned world championships in both pool and three cushion billiards, and is one of the best cueists ever.

Ronnie Allen doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Nick and Harold.

I agree, Nick belongs somewhere. I'll add him to my honorable mention, or I could just add him to my Philippine list since he went over there and beat everyone he played, including Efren! :rolleyes:
 
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... The IPT's break and run out percentage was around 15). ...

The B&R percentage for the top players in the IPT was way above 15%. Two things to be careful of when comparing the IPT results to others.

1. The IPT was not just the top players.

2. The IPT calculated B&R results for each player on two bases. One was the number of B&R games divided by the total number of games played. The second was the number of B&R games divided by the number of games won. Neither of these measures is what we normally think of, i.e., the number of B&R games divided by the number of games in which the player was the breaker. Under the winner-breaks rules, the IPT's second measure is close to the normal measure, but their first measure is much different and much lower.

Example: In the 2006 North American Open and the 2006 World Open, combined, Rodney Morris played 572 games, won 321 of them, and had 127 B&R games. So his B&R% was calculated as 22% based on total games and 40% based on games won. I don't know the number of games in which he was the breaker, but it would have been very close to the 321 number, because it was a winner-breaks format. So sometimes people were mistaking B&R numbers like Rodney's 22% as a normal kind of B&R%, and thinking the IPT equipment was producing real low B&R %'s.

I don't know the source of the 15% figure you quoted, but I do doubt that it was typical of the top players or comparable to figures we are used to from other events involving top players.
 
Totally disagree here. Put today's top Straight Pool players on the equipment we played on in the 70's and 80's and let them play Mizerak, Sigel, Hopkins, Varner and Rempe and I would wish them a lot of luck. Everyone wants to say they played on "buckets" because it sounds good and makes for a better argument. Truth be known many tournaments were played on 4.5" pocket Gold Crowns with straight cut pockets. Definitely not buckets! Al Conte set up all the World Championships that way for years. The Biltmore Hotel event in 1987 was played on Peter Vitalie tables that were far tougher than any tables used today. Sigel beat Buddy in the finals.

Greenleaf was a legend, still revered decades after he died. Mosconi controlled the cue ball as good or better than Efren or anyone else for that matter. He shot straight too! Efren and Worst played all games well, including Three Cushion and Snooker. Who can do that today?

No one today this side of Larry Nevel and Mike Massey has a powerful stroke like the Miz had (with perfect control). And Steve had an equally soft touch too. Sigel never lost if he got to the finals (won eleven finals in a row at one point in his career). Parica was unbeatable for the cash. Even Buddy ducked him. The Parica of 20 years ago would have to spot all of today's champions, giving games on the wire playing Ten Ball.

Both Efren and Parica would run over anyone today at full rack Rotation, including all the Taiwan whiz kids. They knew the game better than these guys. I've seen all this with my own eyes. Lassiter wouldn't miss a ball for hours! Caras and Crane would tie you up in knots! These guys were the real deal. Not to say that today's players are inferior, because they're not. But today's best players are NOT all better than the legends of the game. I still have yet to see anyone who plays Ronnie's speed at One Pocket, with only Efren in the same league.

I agree. If you can control that white ball...pocket size don't mean much. That's 75% of the game...control the little white bastard. I would like to see slower cloth on tables today. In most cases the harder you have to hit the CB, the more chance of missing. Johnnyt
 
Both Efren and Parica would run over anyone today at full rack Rotation, including all the Taiwan whiz kids. They knew the game better than these guys. I've seen all this with my own eyes. Lassiter wouldn't miss a ball for hours! Caras and Crane would tie you up in knots! These guys were the real deal. Not to say that today's players are inferior, because they're not. But today's best players are NOT all better than the legends of the game. I still have yet to see anyone who plays Ronnie's speed at One Pocket, with only Efren in the same league.

i disagree, I don't think Efren or Parica today would be able to beat Ko Pin Yi at 10 ball. But that's not fair, Ko Pin Yi is probably the best 10 ball player that lives right now. Although of course he would get crushed at 1 pocket and such since he doesn't play it.
 
i disagree, I don't think Efren or Parica today would be able to beat Ko Pin Yi at 10 ball. But that's not fair, Ko Pin Yi is probably the best 10 ball player that lives right now. Although of course he would get crushed at 1 pocket and such since he doesn't play it.

Put Ko Pin Yi on slow cloth against Parica and it's a different game. The balls are not flying in on the break and you have to really move the cue ball around. Parica would be the favorite. On the newer fast cloth it's a toss up imo. Parica did have a very strong break in his younger days.
 
i disagree, I don't think Efren or Parica today would be able to beat Ko Pin Yi at 10 ball. But that's not fair, Ko Pin Yi is probably the best 10 ball player that lives right now. Although of course he would get crushed at 1 pocket and such since he doesn't play it.

Ko may very be playing the main rotation games at the highest level ever (although we have no way of measuring and quantifying that idea), but that doesn't mean today's players are generally better overall, as you stated earlier.

Take it from Jay, who's sweated them all in long gambling sessions, including the modern Taiwanese and Filipino stars, where you can actually see a player hit their high gear. And he's not one for nostalgia, either. He was calling Si Ming Chen the best women's player ever when she was only 17 and he raved about Wu Chia Ching.

Some reasons I think the players today are a hair below the standard of players of yesteryear:

- Most of today's top players are tournament stars, used to the pristine and predictable conditions of tournament play. Back in the day, pool players, especially the road gamblers, had to adapt to all sorts of unpredictable environments, from bucket pockets to triple shimmed, from clean balls to dirty balls, beat up felt to new felt, Brunswick Gold Crowns to some shitty no name table, etc, etc. And the road player was playing the hometown star in his backyard, where the hometown guy would know his home table like the back of his hand. We don't see that anymore. Even "challenge" matches are set up like a tournament.

Not that I'm complaining, conditions should be favorable and fair, but players of the past had to develop more of an all around game that could play in a variety of nice or terrible conditions, on a variety of tables from like 50 manufacturers. Now they all play on either Gold Crowns or Diamonds.

- Most of today's top players are specialists in one or two games. Same as above, the old roadies of the past had to be adept in all games, because your opponent might switch it up on you, "Okay, you beat me playing 9 ball, let's play banks now and raise the bet." If the road player wanted to stay in action, he needed to know all games.

- Players of the past were tested more in the formative years. Read CJ's (or any other road player) about being 17 and playing another champion for 20 hours straight for 10 or 20K. And they had to do this nearly every day. No tournament on Earth compares with that kind of pressure and grind. Today's "superstars" were trained by instructors and cut their teeth in structured junior tournaments and such. Sure, the players of today have better fundamentals, but 90% of this game is between the ears, and the environments older players traversed were much, much more mentally demanding and better prepared a player for performance under pressure.

Incidentally, this is why your Filipino and Taiwanese favorites are the best overall players in the world, since they still gamble like this, while the Europeans, Chinese, and even American Juniors learn from instructors and work on their fundamentals and practice drills more than they play pool.

I'm relatively younger, and grew up watching tournament pool, and believed the players on the pro tour were "the best players in the world," and I think this mentality still remains with modern pool fans. It was a shock for me to discover that tournament champs weren't that respected in the old days (unless of course they could also gamble), but I have to agree. I'm not celebrating gambling over tournament competition, I simply think those long 8-10 hour sessions, sometimes played over week between two top players, are a better test of ability than these short race tournaments.

And then the next week, the player in question had to go play another champ for hours or days at a time.

This is why many pool fans highly regard Parica as possibly the best ever (even over Efren), despite Jose never taking down a major title, because he was unbeatable "when it really counted."
 
Ko may very be playing the main rotation games at the highest level ever (although we have no way of measuring and quantifying that idea), but that doesn't mean today's players are generally better overall, as you stated earlier.

Take it from Jay, who's sweated them all in long gambling sessions, including the modern Taiwanese and Filipino stars, where you can actually see a player hit their high gear. And he's not one for nostalgia, either. He was calling Si Ming Chen the best women's player ever when she was only 17 and he raved about Wu Chia Ching.

Some reasons I think the players today are a hair below the standard of players of yesteryear:

- Most of today's top players are tournament stars, used to the pristine and predictable conditions of tournament play. Back in the day, pool players, especially the road gamblers, had to adapt to all sorts of unpredictable environments, from bucket pockets to triple shimmed, from clean balls to dirty balls, beat up felt to new felt, Brunswick Gold Crowns to some shitty no name table, etc, etc. And the road player was playing the hometown star in his backyard, where the hometown guy would know his home table like the back of his hand. We don't see that anymore. Even "challenge" matches are set up like a tournament.

Not that I'm complaining, conditions should be favorable and fair, but players of the past had to develop more of an all around game that could play in a variety of nice or terrible conditions, on a variety of tables from like 50 manufacturers. Now they all play on either Gold Crowns or Diamonds.

- Most of today's top players are specialists in one or two games. Same as above, the old roadies of the past had to be adept in all games, because your opponent might switch it up on you, "Okay, you beat me playing 9 ball, let's play banks now and raise the bet." If the road player wanted to stay in action, he needed to know all games.

- Players of the past were tested more in the formative years. Read CJ's (or any other road player) about being 17 and playing another champion for 20 hours straight for 10 or 20K. And they had to do this nearly every day. No tournament on Earth compares with that kind of pressure and grind. Today's "superstars" were trained by instructors and cut their teeth in structured junior tournaments and such. Sure, the players of today have better fundamentals, but 90% of this game is between the ears, and the environments older players traversed were much, much more mentally demanding and better prepared a player for performance under pressure.

Incidentally, this is why your Filipino and Taiwanese favorites are the best overall players in the world, since they still gamble like this, while the Europeans, Chinese, and even American Juniors learn from instructors and work on their fundamentals and practice drills more than they play pool.

I'm relatively younger, and grew up watching tournament pool, and believed the players on the pro tour were "the best players in the world," and I think this mentality still remains with modern pool fans. It was a shock for me to discover that tournament champs weren't that respected in the old days (unless of course they could also gamble), but I have to agree. I'm not celebrating gambling over tournament competition, I simply think those long 8-10 hour sessions, sometimes played over week between two top players, are a better test of ability than these short race tournaments.

And then the next week, the player in question had to go play another champ for hours or days at a time.

This is why many pool fans highly regard Parica as possibly the best ever (even over Efren), despite Jose never taking down a major title, because he was unbeatable "when it really counted."

Not sure how much of that is actually relevant.

One thing i am sure about; modern day players miss a lot less than older players. Blame equipment if you want but they missed because they had horrible mechanics imo. Not saying they weren't great players but they were limited by their technique.
 
One thing i am sure about; modern day players miss a lot less than older players.

That may be true, but I'd like to see the evidence. Do you have the statistics that show this?

I know Mike Sigel had entire tournaments where he shot a .900 or better TPA.
 
Not sure how much of that is actually relevant.

One thing i am sure about; modern day players miss a lot less than older players. Blame equipment if you want but they missed because they had horrible mechanics imo. Not saying they weren't great players but they were limited by their technique.

Relevant to what?

Anyhow, like the other guy said, provide some evidence older players missed more. The guys in the know on here who sweated these guys and who also sweat modern stars (not just in these short race tournies, but over 8 hours or more longer sessions) will tell you that older players didn't miss more.

Furthermore, the modern Filipino players (most of them don't pause during the backstroke, have overly long bridges, too loose grip hands) and many modern Taiwan players (Wu Chia Ching has a chicken wing elbow, and many of them stroke like the Filipinos) can be said to have "horrible" technique compared to the snooker inspired mechanics many Euros have, and every Euro would need a spot against the top Asians.

Anyhow, other than McCready, I'm not sure what past top player could be said to have had "bad mechanics?" Buddy Hall is pretty much textbook, Earl is solid as a rock, Rempe, CJ, Varner, all solid.
 
While it is admirable to be a great gambler and there is certainly a lot of pressure involved, it doesn't mean that there is more pressure in a gambling match than a prestigious tournament- the notoriety of the title, the crowd, less room for error (shorter races than most gambling sets), etc.
 
While it is admirable to be a great gambler and there is certainly a lot of pressure involved, it doesn't mean that there is more pressure in a gambling match than a prestigious tournament- the notoriety of the title, the crowd, less room for error (shorter races than most gambling sets), etc.

I actually think there is more pressure in a world championship final than in any gambling match. In a world championship final you just get one chance, and the title of world champion is on the line. There's very little room for error, and you have to perform your best right that moment. In a gambling match you can play for as long as you, or someone backing you, can put up the money. If we learned that Phil Mickelson beat Tiger Woods gambling at golf there's no way we would think Mickelson was the better golfer.
 
While it is admirable to be a great gambler and there is certainly a lot of pressure involved, it doesn't mean that there is more pressure in a gambling match than a prestigious tournament- the notoriety of the title, the crowd, less room for error (shorter races than most gambling sets), etc.

I suppose that does depend on what a specific player values more, but the older mentality did value who was the best "backroom" player more than who was the tournament champ. The prevailing thought being anyone can win a short race tournament and you don't get a guy's best game over that short of a period. Yes, less room for error, but much, much more room for luck.

On a side point, gambling matches drew larger crowds than tournaments.

Again, this is relative to the player's own psychology, but I think it's much more mentally straining to play another top player over 10, 20, sometimes 40 or more hours than to play a tournament. A single match lasts no longer than 2 hours most of the time, and you can rest and mentally reset after each match. If you lose, you're only out your entry fee and there's another tournament next week. Imagine being up 50K after 15 hours of play and then giving it back over the next few hours.

Then the next week, you gotta do it again.

The Hustler provides good insight into the old school mentality. Eddie wanted to beat Fats to the point where Fats would quit him. It wasn't enough to just beat him over a few hours. That meant nothing. It was obvious in the film that Fats had a Parica-like stamina and the only victory Eddie would feel satisfied with was to beat Fats at his best, over a long, long session.
 
I actually think there is more pressure in a world championship final than in any gambling match. In a world championship final you just get one chance, and the title of world champion is on the line. There's very little room for error, and you have to perform your best right that moment. In a gambling match you can play for as long as you, or someone backing you, can put up the money. If we learned that Phil Mickelson beat Tiger Woods gambling at golf there's no way we would think Mickelson was the better golfer.

I point here to Efren vs. Earl. No one cares that Earl beat Efren for a World Title (I also think Earl has a winning record against Efren in 9 ball tournies, maybe AtLarge can confirm), but the defining match those two players had was the Color of Money challenge match. It's Efren's ace in the hole vs. Earl as far as their rivalry is concerned.

We obviously have no idea if Earl felt more pressure against Efren in the World final or the Color of Money challenge match, but if it were me, blowing a 20 game lead against my rival, the player whose shadow I'm always in, at my game (9 ball) for 100K would make me want to kill myself (figuratively speaking, of course :wink:).

And I don't think Earl ever got another chance at prime Efren in a long challenge match. Yet, he got a few more chances at a World title, even winning another.
 
I point here to Efren vs. Earl. No one cares that Earl beat Efren for a World Title (I also think Earl has a winning record against Efren in 9 ball tournies, maybe AtLarge can confirm), but the defining match those two players had was the Color of Money challenge match. It's Efren's ace in the hole vs. Earl as far as their rivalry is concerned.

We obviously have no idea if Earl felt more pressure against Efren in the World final or the Color of Money challenge match, but if it were me, blowing a 20 game lead against my rival, the player whose shadow I'm always in, at my game (9 ball) for 100K would make me want to kill myself (figuratively speaking, of course :wink:).

And I don't think Earl ever got another chance at prime Efren in a long challenge match. Yet, he got a few more chances at a World title, even winning another.
I understand that the Color of Money match was very meaningful, but I don't think that it necessarily means that Efren was a better 9 ball player. Earl's 5 US Opens and World Titles do indicate that he was the better 9 ball player overall.

Gotta give credit to Efren though for playing great on that final day. It was mostly Efren playing great, but Earl played somewhat of a role in his own demise by melting down at the very end.
 
I understand that the Color of Money match was very meaningful, but I don't think that it necessarily means that Efren was a better 9 ball player. Earl's 5 US Opens and World Titles do indicate that he was the better 9 ball player overall.

I agree. If you poll the pool community about who was the greatest 9-ball player ever, I suspect Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, and Luther Lassiter might all get more votes than Efren. I'm pretty sure Strickland, Sigel, and perhaps Varner all have winning records against Efren at tournament 9-ball. And wasn't it Varner who went over to the Philippines and beat Efren?

Efren, of course, was a great 9-ball player, but Efren's status as perhaps the greatest player of all time doesn't just rest on his credentials at 9-ball, it rests on his overall game, where he is arguably the greatest ever at rotation, one-pocket, and 8-ball, and great really at just about every game.

All-around ability is why I'd put Efren, Sigel, and Varner (all roughly contemporaries of Earl) ahead of Earl in the pantheon of pool legends.
 
I understand that the Color of Money match was very meaningful, but I don't think that it necessarily means that Efren was a better 9 ball player. Earl's 5 US Opens and World Titles do indicate that he was the better 9 ball player overall.

Gotta give credit to Efren though for playing great on that final day. It was mostly Efren playing great, but Earl played somewhat of a role in his own demise by melting down at the very end.

The two things that resonate with me resulting from this match is how phenomenal at nine ball Earl really was back then. He was MUCH the best over Efren through 80 - 90% of the match, IMO. The second notable thing is how he went super nova there toward the end. The way he mentally broke down, it was obvious he was giving himself no shot to close the deal. It is an interesting study in sports psychology IMO.
 
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