Tournament Rules that are Completely ****ed!!!

[lorider]

Another rule change for this year. BIH anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break.

And for those of you that think that it has always been open after the break, that's not so. The rule changes seem to be made to speed the game up.

When eight ball was "you got what you made" it presented a challenge to your skills of eight ball. Make a solid and you have no run out then you have to employ eight ball skills to give yourself a chance to win that game. The game has evolved to highly favor the big break. A fair player with a good break can win many matches with the game the way it is now.

In years past you needed to really understand the beauty of eight ball to win games. It was rare to see a string of 5 or 6 games on the barbox with the rules the way they used to be. Now it's fairly common. Skills learned after fifty years of playing this game are now useless.

you have the best post on this thread imo. i played strictcy in bars for 30 years. never played in a league til a few years ago. first league i joined was bca. i didnt like all their rules but since i quit going to bars and wanted to continue playing pool i adapted knowing that every body was playing under the same rules. i dont care for open table, 8 spotted if made on break or made out of turn.
bca is not here anymore, now its apa or tap. i currently play in both. i have nothing but good to say about tap.
i dont like slop in apa but i will say i hardly ever see any slop from a skill level 4 or above. hell i have seen pros make a slop shotin 9 ball, they will give you a im sorry look but they will keep shooting. you cant do that under bar rules. you win on skill alone, no slop,no spotting the 8,no 2nd chances.

 

[lorider]

I don't see any problem with any of those rules except the 8 having to go clean. That's a stupid rule to me. Why be penalized for a good shot into a called pocket.

im not sure about this rule either. any bar i ever played in you called your shot. if your opponent had a ball partially blocking a pocket you were attempting to make the 8 in you could either call it clean or off his ball. i lost 500.00 on a game one time where i called the 8 off his ball and it went in clean.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Another rule change for this year. BIH anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break. ...

Well, yes, but... that's BCAPL which is different from BCA/WPA/World Standardized Rules which is what I was talking about.

 

[rackem]

Eight ball clean is an absolute ridiculous rule.

If you are playing call ball and pocket why should the rules change for the 8?
If you are playing call shot why shouldn't you be able to call it to kiss off another ball if that is your best option.
Pool should not be a game of block the pocket.
If you want to play defense there are other ways.
Sinking the cue when shooting the 8 should be a loss whether or not you make the 8.
Missing a good hit on the 8 should not be a loss but rather ball in hand to your opponent.
I prefer you got what you make on the break. If you make a least one of each it should be still opened. But no cross combos should be allowed.
Now if you are playing ball in hand in the kitchen instead of anywhere you need to have a spot rule.
If the only ball you have to shoot at is also in the kitchen you can spot it.
That will eliminate most of your opponent scratching on purpose just because you would have to kick at it.

 

[Baxter]

I couldn't get halfway through this thread before my head started hurting.

I don't pay money to play under anything other than BCA/World Standardized rules. Simple as that. I'll take some money playing "bar rules", but I don't pay any lol.

 

[OUSooner]

Wow the bar bangers are out in force. Never in the history of pool was there a written set of bar rules. Bar rules are a hustle by the locals to keep the outsiders from taking their money and the original coin op players to make the game last longer. They have no use in pool.

 

[lorider]

Wow the bar bangers are out in force. Never in the history of pool was there a written set of bar rules. Bar rules are a hustle by the locals to keep the outsiders from taking their money and the original coin op players to make the game last longer. They have no use in pool.

wow ! do you really believe what you typed ? bar rules are based on straight pool. it is call your shot which tests your skill . it eliminates LUCK !

hustle to keep outsiders from taking their money ? if i was playing you in a bar and you screwed up and made the 8 out of turn do you think im going to spot the 8 and give you a 2nd chance to beat me ? ant no way ! call it a hustle if you want to but in imo you not getting a 2nd chance, unless you putting up more money.

bar rules have no use in pool ? the same could be said about most leagues. every league gives a player a 2nd chance when they screw up a shot. apa has slop. bca spots the 8. in bca you break an make a stripe and if you aint good enough to bank or kick to get your next ball you get to shoot at solids. to me thats giving a mediocre player a 2nd chance to keep shooting. leagues adding new rules darn near every year. the bulk of new rules being added are to help less skilled players.

i was a bar banger for 30 years and have played leagues for the last 4.

 

[OUSooner]

Yeah I actually do. Straight pool is a call pocket game, not call shot. You don't call kisses and ticks. If you pocket a ball that wasn't called you forfeit your turn.

The 8 out of turn is a loss in any league. 8 ball rules do eliminate luck. Most major tournaments play BCA 8 ball which is call pocket, ball in hand rule. That eliminates just about any luck. The premise of the scratch on 8 giving a "second chance" is that you can't win or lose the game on one shot. I don't necessarily agree with it. But in games against decent players or better if you scratch on the 8 you're very unlikely to get to shoot at the 8 again.

The original game was invented by Brunswick and without numbered balls and was very similar to the British version of the game as played today. Straight pool was separate and distinct then as it is now. The 8 ball bar pool game you so fondly remember came about with the invention of the coin op bar table and patrons trying to make the game last longer.

wow ! do you really believe what you typed ? bar rules are based on straight pool. it is call your shot which tests your skill . it eliminates LUCK !

hustle to keep outsiders from taking their money ? if i was playing you in a bar and you screwed up and made the 8 out of turn do you think im going to spot the 8 and give you a 2nd chance to beat me ? ant no way ! call it a hustle if you want to but in imo you not getting a 2nd chance, unless you putting up more money.

bar rules have no use in pool ? the same could be said about most leagues. every league gives a player a 2nd chance when they screw up a shot. apa has slop. bca spots the 8. in bca you break an make a stripe and if you aint good enough to bank or kick to get your next ball you get to shoot at solids. to me thats giving a mediocre player a 2nd chance to keep shooting. leagues adding new rules darn near every year. the bulk of new rules being added are to help less skilled players.

i was a bar banger for 30 years and have played leagues for the last 4.

 

[OUSooner]

And open after break certainly favors the stronger player. Make it take it was a variation to equal the playing field and keep players from running out from the break as often so the players paying the quarters would actually get a shot.

 

[lorider]

Yeah I actually do. Straight pool is a call pocket game, not call shot. You don't call kisses and ticks. If you pocket a ball that wasn't called you forfeit your turn.

The 8 out of turn is a loss in any league. 8 ball rules do eliminate luck. Most major tournaments play BCA 8 ball which is call pocket, ball in hand rule. That eliminates just about any luck. The premise of the scratch on 8 giving a "second chance" is that you can't win or lose the game on one shot. I don't necessarily agree with it. But in games against decent players or better if you scratch on the 8 you're very unlikely to get to shoot at the 8 again.

The original game was invented by Brunswick and without numbered balls and was very similar to the British version of the game as played today. Straight pool was separate and distinct then as it is now. The 8 ball bar pool game you so fondly remember came about with the invention of the coin op bar table and patrons trying to make the game last longer.

darn ! you know more about the history of pool than i ! gotta hand it it to you.
all i know about pool is to shoot my best an try to win the game no matter what rules im playing under. still like bar rules best although i quit the bar banging and currently play in both apa and tap.

 

[trustyrusty]

And open after break certainly favors the stronger player. Make it take it was a variation to equal the playing field and keep players from running out from the break as often so the players paying the quarters would actually get a shot.

You might have that a bit backwards - the open after the break VARIATION is intended to speed up the game....for leagues and tourneys. It does NOT always favor the stronger player. It does favor the person breaking who makes a ball and can correctly determine which suit is better to take.

 

[sfleinen]

And open after break certainly favors the stronger player. Make it take it was a variation to equal the playing field and keep players from running out from the break as often so the players paying the quarters would actually get a shot.

OUSooner:

I have to agree with you on all accounts, that:

• "Call everything" (every combination [and every contact in that combination], every carom, every tickie, every cushion that either the cue ball or object ball touches, etc.)
  
  
• "Take what you make" (off the break that, is)
  
  
• "Cue ball scratches [scratch in a pocket, that is] result in ball-in-hand only in the kitchen for the opponent, forcing the opponent to have to shoot the cue ball outside of the kitchen" (this is where the garbage tactic of intentionally shooting the cue ball into a pocket when the opponent is on the 8-ball, and that 8-ball is in the kitchen, started from)
  
  
• "Complete misses of the object ball [or of complete misses of the player's object ball category] by the cue ball, results in the cue ball staying where it stops -- i.e. the opponent has to shoot the cue ball where it lies" (i.e. no ball-in-hand upon a technical scratch, resulting in the garbage tactic of the player rolling the cue ball to an inaccessible spot on the table, or up against his own ball, without any ball contacting a cushion)

...are merely attempts by people -- lower-level players, to be sure -- to extend the game, and try to buy some incarnation of a chance against a better player. It's sort of a built-in "spot" or "handicap" that favors the lower-level player, or at least give him/her a chance of getting to the table. Many establishments actually encourage these rules, because they don't want unhappy patrons when a good player walks in, puts his/her quarters up, "earns" the table with a superior skillset, and is not easily knocked-off the table.

It's understandable players of old may groan and complain about how league play may have "poisoned" what they consider to have been rules that encouraged "skill" -- e.g. the ball-in-hand-anywhere-on-the-table stuff, vs. taking ball-in-hand behind the line, and "taking what you make on the break." However, I vehemently disagree with the notion that the above "rule handicapping" bullets encourage "skill." They do not. They are merely "spots" for the lower-level player. I.e. an attempt to try to level the playing field for your average bar patron.

Me personally? I don't care. By putting my quarters up, I've read the house rules, accept them (I am a guest in your house, afterall), and fully challenge any player using any ruleset in place. And I'll play to my opponent's skill-level -- because my purpose on that barbox is to have fun, afterall. If the player's not any good, I might throw good 8-ball sense/caution to the wind, and go for crazy shots -- again, in the spirit of having fun, and to give my opponent a chance or two if I miss. But on the other hand, know this -- if I see you're a good player, you will get a very stiff game from me, because I will do my best to take the table away from you. The rules will have nothing to do with it, I guarantee you that.

-Sean

 

[lorider]

OUSooner:

I have to agree with you on all accounts, that:

• "Call everything" (every combination [and every contact in that combination], every carom, every tickie, every cushion that either the cue ball or object ball touches, etc.)
  
  
• "Take what you make" (off the break that, is)
  
  
• "Cue ball scratches [scratch in a pocket, that is] result in ball-in-hand only in the kitchen for the opponent, forcing the opponent to have to shoot the cue ball outside of the kitchen" (this is where the garbage tactic of intentionally shooting the cue ball into a pocket when the opponent is on the 8-ball, and that 8-ball is in the kitchen, started from)
  
  
• "Complete misses of the object ball [or of complete misses of the player's object ball category] by the cue ball, results in the cue ball staying where it stops -- i.e. the opponent has to shoot the cue ball where it lies" (i.e. no ball-in-hand upon a technical scratch, resulting in the garbage tactic of the player rolling the cue ball to an inaccessible spot on the table, or up against his own ball, without any ball contacting a cushion)

...are merely attempts by people -- lower-level players, to be sure -- to extend the game, and try to buy some incarnation of a chance against a better player. It's sort of a built-in "spot" or "handicap" that favors the lower-level player, or at least give him/her a chance of getting to the table. Many establishments actually encourage these rules, because they don't want unhappy patrons when a good player walks in, puts his/her quarters up, "earns" the table with a superior skillset, and is not easily knocked-off the table.

It's understandable players of old may groan and complain about how league play may have "poisoned" what they consider to have been rules that encouraged "skill" -- e.g. the ball-in-hand-anywhere-on-the-table stuff, vs. taking ball-in-hand behind the line, and "taking what you make on the break." However, I vehemently disagree with the notion that the above "rule handicapping" bullets encourage "skill." They do not. They are merely "spots" for the lower-level player. I.e. an attempt to try to level the playing field for your average bar patron.

Me personally? I don't care. By putting my quarters up, I've read the house rules, accept them (I am a guest in your house, afterall), and fully challenge any player using any ruleset in place. And I'll play to my opponent's skill-level -- because my purpose on that barbox is to have fun, afterall. If the player's not any good, I might throw good 8-ball sense/caution to the wind, and go for crazy shots -- again, in the spirit of having fun, and to give my opponent a chance or two if I miss. But on the other hand, know this -- if I see you're a good player, you will get a very stiff game from me, because I will do my best to take the table away from you. The rules will have nothing to do with it, I guarantee you that.

-Sean

you sir have a way with words. you put it better than i could have. i completely agree with your last paragraph. i am one of the players of old you speek of. i run into a few road players back in the 80s that cleaned me out whenever i come across them . one in particular i remember like it was yesterday. he made the 8 in 5 breaks in a row. i never asked to spot the 8 or to get ball in hand or for weight. at the end of the night i thanked him for the lesson knowing i would win my money back down the line from some one else. i played in bars for 30 years and never had a problem playing by those rules.

i may come on here and voice my opion about leagues and their rules . thats all it is , my opinion. i play apa and tap now. i have no problem playing by those rules because every player i match up with is under the same rules. i had a problem with the handicapping system in apa a lil while back and even started a thread on here about it. thanks to some fellow az ers that posted and gave me advice i am quite happy playing in both leagues now.

 

[OUSooner]

Ditto. You said it better than I could have or had time to.

OUSooner:

I have to agree with you on all accounts, that:

• "Call everything" (every combination [and every contact in that combination], every carom, every tickie, every cushion that either the cue ball or object ball touches, etc.)
  
  
• "Take what you make" (off the break that, is)
  
  
• "Cue ball scratches [scratch in a pocket, that is] result in ball-in-hand only in the kitchen for the opponent, forcing the opponent to have to shoot the cue ball outside of the kitchen" (this is where the garbage tactic of intentionally shooting the cue ball into a pocket when the opponent is on the 8-ball, and that 8-ball is in the kitchen, started from)
  
  
• "Complete misses of the object ball [or of complete misses of the player's object ball category] by the cue ball, results in the cue ball staying where it stops -- i.e. the opponent has to shoot the cue ball where it lies" (i.e. no ball-in-hand upon a technical scratch, resulting in the garbage tactic of the player rolling the cue ball to an inaccessible spot on the table, or up against his own ball, without any ball contacting a cushion)

...are merely attempts by people -- lower-level players, to be sure -- to extend the game, and try to buy some incarnation of a chance against a better player. It's sort of a built-in "spot" or "handicap" that favors the lower-level player, or at least give him/her a chance of getting to the table. Many establishments actually encourage these rules, because they don't want unhappy patrons when a good player walks in, puts his/her quarters up, "earns" the table with a superior skillset, and is not easily knocked-off the table.

It's understandable players of old may groan and complain about how league play may have "poisoned" what they consider to have been rules that encouraged "skill" -- e.g. the ball-in-hand-anywhere-on-the-table stuff, vs. taking ball-in-hand behind the line, and "taking what you make on the break." However, I vehemently disagree with the notion that the above "rule handicapping" bullets encourage "skill." They do not. They are merely "spots" for the lower-level player. I.e. an attempt to try to level the playing field for your average bar patron.

Me personally? I don't care. By putting my quarters up, I've read the house rules, accept them (I am a guest in your house, afterall), and fully challenge any player using any ruleset in place. And I'll play to my opponent's skill-level -- because my purpose on that barbox is to have fun, afterall. If the player's not any good, I might throw good 8-ball sense/caution to the wind, and go for crazy shots -- again, in the spirit of having fun, and to give my opponent a chance or two if I miss. But on the other hand, know this -- if I see you're a good player, you will get a very stiff game from me, because I will do my best to take the table away from you. The rules will have nothing to do with it, I guarantee you that.

-Sean

 

[Black-Balled]

I can see how a coin-op table requires the offending player to lose if the 8 is made out of turn or in an uncalled pocket. If the ball is gone, it is gone...but generally, I do not think a player should be able to win without making all his suit and then the 8. Can't even think of another game where one can win without active participation, billiard or otherwise.

I played the event Mr. James is talking about and it seemed bizarre that the same offense was penalized differently, depending on the point of the game.

 

[Keith Buck]

hustle to keep outsiders from taking their money ? if i was playing you in a bar and you screwed up and made the 8 out of turn do you think im going to spot the 8 and give you a 2nd chance to beat me ? ant no way ! call it a hustle if you want to but in imo you not getting a 2nd chance, unless you putting up more money.

You keep mentioning this "8-ball out of turn gets spotted" rule as if it's standard in a lot of places.

The four or five times you have mentioned it in this thread were the first four or five times I have heard of it, lol.