trading and dealing with the big dealers....

scruggsinhand

scruggsinhand

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Silver Member
hello azers...

i dont know if this is in the right forum or not, but here it goes..

i wont mention any names or really detailed specifics either, so please dont ask...but i would like to have some feedback/opinions of others who have had the same thing or something of the like happen to them...

at the derby i was trying to do some trading with a dealer. i showed a couple of cues that i was willing to trade with and was trying to get cue from a different just as respectable cuemaker. not really an upgrade, but a sideways trade of sorts.

he shows interest in a cue that if ordered new would cost about $3.5k (pointed cue w/ 72 ivory inlays and ivory/gold rings) per that cuemaker. this cue is approximately 15-18 yrs old and was refinished by the original maker over 10 years ago. cue is signed and dated (even rarer) by the maker, which is uncommon on his cues unless they are 1/1's. cue is at 90% condition, grading on the lowside, straight as an arrow and both original shafts @ 12.8mm. comparable/similar designed cue without signature and no gold in another booth at the derby is at $3k. moving on....

i say ok, where are we at?

now please keep in mind, i got this cue from this exact dealer about 4 years ago for $1800 used. currently, he has a cue from the same maker as i am trading in. 4 points, silver rings--your standard 4 pt cue- asking $1500 used but minty.

i am thinking in my head about $300 difference and then he offers me $1200 on trade :eek: towards a $2800 cue ($1600 difference!!)....i am so stunned i just put the cue back in my bag and walk away shaking my head.
to me, it was like someone offering $150 for a scruggs sneaky pete:rolleyes: but on a more ridiculous scale. everyone loves a good deal just as i do, but lowballing to that extent was really offensive to me.

now i might be venting, but i have had a couple days to think about it and i am still reeling :(

anyone else want to chime in and does this make sense or just call me crazy :p

fyi, it wasnt joesalaretail

thanks for listening and may the rolls be with you!! ;)
 
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I might not understand... he was offering you a fantastic deal and you turned him down????

or....?

I don't understand :)
 
From what I have seen, and this is both baseball card traders and cue dealers, they ALWAYS try to lowball you. ALWAYS. If they say they are not, they are liars. What you are suppose to do is haggle with them. That is always part of the game and if it's a rare item that someone or everyone would want, then you got a good item to haggle with. Sounds like if you would of stood your ground, been polite, and maybe shifted the deal back the other way, you may could of worked it out with him. If the dealer won't budge, then you should of done what you did. You got to keep in mind that dealers want to come out on the positive side in EVERY deal they do...this may be more than a hobby to them, it may be putting food on their table.

Shorty
 
i would have been more understanding of a lowball of $1k difference....not $1600!!

maybe i should have acted like it was a joke and laughed to his face like i see some others do, but that is not me. this is also, IMHO, not how you should treat someone you know and that you have done business with a few times before. he was serious. he wasnt smiling and trust me, neither was i.

i guess i just expect them to have more couth and/or respect than that...maybe that is my mistake in the matter?

let me use this analogy...'i will you offer you $1200 for that $3500 searing on trade for my $2800 hercek.' does that put it in perspective a little more?

i have no problem with a dealer making some money on a deal....but that was plain insulting and ridiculous.
 
scruggsinhand said:
hello azers...

i dont know if this is in the right forum or not, but here it goes..

i wont mention any names or really detailed specifics either, so please dont ask...but i would like to have some feedback/opinions of others who have had the same thing or something of the like happen to them...

at the derby i was trying to do some trading with a dealer. i showed a couple of cues that i was willing to trade with and was trying to get cue from a different just as respectable cuemaker. not really an upgrade, but a sideways trade of sorts.

he shows interest in a cue that if ordered new would cost about $3.5k (pointed cue w/ 72 ivory inlays and ivory/gold rings) per that cuemaker. this cue is approximately 15-18 yrs old and was refinished by the original maker over 10 years ago. cue is signed and dated (even rarer) by the maker, which is uncommon on his cues unless they are 1/1's. cue is at 90% condition, grading on the lowside, straight as an arrow and both original shafts @ 12.8mm. comparable/similar designed cue without signature and no gold in another booth at the derby is at $3k. moving on....

i say ok, where are we at?

now please keep in mind, i got this cue from this exact dealer about 4 years ago for $1800 used. currently, he has a cue from the same maker as i am trading in. 4 points, silver rings--your standard 4 pt cue- asking $1500 used but minty.

i am thinking in my head about $300 difference and then he offers me $1200 on trade :eek: towards a $2800 cue ($1600 difference!!)....i am so stunned i just put the cue back in my bag and walk away shaking my head.
to me, it was like someone offering $150 for a scruggs sneaky pete:rolleyes: but on a more ridiculous scale. everyone loves a good deal just as i do, but lowballing to that extent was really offensive to me.

now i might be venting, but i have had a couple days to think about it and i am still reeling :(

anyone else want to chime in and does this make sense or just call me crazy :p

fyi, it wasnt joeretail...

thanks for listening and may the rolls be with you!! ;)
Click to expand...

Well it wasn't us, cause we are not there. But before I can give you a comment, I need to know the cues in question, because yes it is important. Is the cue you have an the cue he has interest in the same cue? The cue you bought from him for 1800? Your story is a bit confusing. Limit it to this..

Your cue, what you paid for it from the dealer, (not what you think its worth), condition
His cue, his asking price, condition.

In general though, if you are a repeat customer, and you have a cue WE sold you, we have a trade in guarantee, thats in writing on the site.

I also won't lie to you, like any dealer, baseball cards, jewlery, autos, its the dealers job to get the cue whether its a trade or a buy, as low as possible. Just as YOU the consumer are also entitled to try and get a break on the price. The funny thing to me has always been, when a dealer offers you a lower than normal price its called "lowballing", when a buyers offers you a lower than normal price its called "haggling".

Joe
 
scruggsinhand said:
let me use this analogy...'i will you offer you $1200 for that $3500 searing on trade for my $2800 hercek.' does that put it in perspective a little more?

i have no problem with a dealer making some money on a deal....but that was plain insulting and ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Ok.. now maybe I am getting this..

you paid 1800 for a 3500 cue? Right? And now you want this dealer to give you more than you paid in credit to another cue? If this is true, you should ask that this thread be deleted immediately.

Unless you are talking about a super hot cuemaker, like a Searing, or maybe one or two others, than the cuedealer should take into account the rise in price. But thats up to the dealer and thats why its called "dealing".

Joe
 
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iconcue said:
is this true joe??? :eek:
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Jeff,
Why do you constantly change your posts?? First it was "Spanky", then me because I am viewing the thread.. if Bill was viewing the thread would you have changed it to him?.. or to Sean??? Give it a rest.

Joe
 
Hey its just like buying a new car and trading in youre old one , the dealer never gives you what you want for youre trade right?? So thus you have to "haggle" for the right price that you want........... I think maybe you valued these people you where dealing with as friends therefore maybe expected what you payed or more for the cue you where trading in for the new cue????? In my opinion that was youre mistake, valueing these people as "friends"............. When in business dealings you have no friends........
 
classiccues said:
Jeff,
Why do you constantly change your posts?? First it was "Spanky", then me because I am viewing the thread.. if Bill was viewing the thread would you have changed it to him?.. or to Sean??? Give it a rest.

Joe
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joe
i don't constantly change my posts. i did on this occasion because spanky was here when i was posting but had left when i finished. then i saw you were here so i changed it to your name. didnt think it was that big of deal.
guess you awoke in a mood?
 
classiccues said:
Ok.. now maybe I am getting this..

you paid 1800 for a 3500 cue? Right? And now you want this dealer to give you more than you paid in credit to another cue? If this is true, you should ask that this thread be deleted immediately.

Unless you are talking about a super hot cuemaker, like a Searing, or maybe one or two others, than the cuedealer should take into account the rise in price. But thats up to the dealer and thats why its called "dealing".

Joe
Click to expand...

hey Joe,

at the time i got the cue for 1800 it was about a 2200 retail cue. this makers prices have gone up to where now the same cue is an easy 3500...so yes i should be able to expect more for what i invested. i paid $800 for a new inlaid omega from john wright(RIP), are you telling me its not worth at least 2k now???

so again, if i were to follow your logic....if i were to buy a southwest for $1200 approx. 5 years ago (which could have been easily done), then i should not expect 2200 solid trade money today...i dont think so and that is what my point is....how about one that is hand signed and dated???....how much more would it be worth?

i am not going to give the exact cuemaker name...but the names here are in the same league/ballpark. these cues i speak of are highly desirable on both ends and have always went up in value over time.

call it haggling/lowballing/stealing/bulldoggin...its the same thing...not tryin to shake anyones tree. we call it lowballin,,,,no matter what side you are on.
 
pooldogue said:
Hey its just like buying a new car and trading in youre old one , the dealer never gives you what you want for youre trade right?? So thus you have to "haggle" for the right price that you want........... I think maybe you valued these people you where dealing with as friends therefore maybe expected what you payed or more for the cue you where trading in for the new cue????? In my opinion that was youre mistake, valueing these people as "friends"............. When in business dealings you have no friends........
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so if i walked into a dealership and tried to trade in my 04' GTO...i should expect them to offer me 10K for it...get real

be more realistic and think about what you are saying....i know they arent my friends, i am not that naive, but there is a thing called customer courtesy and if someone did offer me 10k for my GTO,,,i would do the damn same thing......walk!

i will try another analogy.........
"hey, i see you have an inlaid southwest with the inlaid southwest logo,,,oh, and it is signed and dated!!! i will offer you 1500 for it"....you would either walk away or laugh.....can you agree to that? :rolleyes:
 
This is why I don't trade anymore. There isn't such a thing as a sideways trade. Someone always has to come out a head. If a dealer has a cue I want I think I'm better off selling a cue to an individual then taking the cash back to get my cue. Services are a differnt story though. I've helped guys set up and covered the display while they got a bite to eat or something and gotten a new wrap or tip etc.

Andy
 
DawgAndy said:
This is why I don't trade anymore. There isn't such a thing as a sideways trade. Someone always has to come out a head. If a dealer has a cue I want I think I'm better off selling a cue to an individual then taking the cash back to get my cue. Services are a differnt story though. I've helped guys set up and covered the display while they got a bite to eat or something and gotten a new wrap or tip etc.

Andy
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GOOD POINT ANDY>

cash is king>>this is probably some good advice and what i will end up doing also...thanks andy!

and i didnt have a problem with the dealer coming out ahead.....WITHIN REASON!!!!!!

so what is a reasonable percentage for a dealer to make on a cue????...i know what i will get for an answer...as much as possible...no shit...how about an intelligent answer...
 
I have a lot of "junk" that I have inherited from my parents. Everyone tells me that the stuff is worth a lot of money. It may be but try and get it.

I was in a bank in Canada. I exhanged $100 US for Canadian. I got about $150. I asked the cashier before I left that if I gave her the $150 back how much US would I get. She said $96. I said but I didn't leave the window. She just smiled.

Put yourself in the dealers situation. He has all the expenses of traveling, cost of the booth, plus the hassle of securing his products. I don't think anyone would go to all of this trouble just to trade cues on a even basis. I know that you feel insulted and I would be too. Sometimes I think the dealers do this to discourage trades. They make it so unreasonable that if someone does trade it they know that it can be sold fast for a little profit. If you look at the dealer's sites they mostly deal in new cues unless it is a very hot cue in demand that is in almost perfect condition.

If you think that your cue is worth $3500 then sell it outright and use the cash to deal for that $2800 cue. Post it here. Get your money, buy the cue you want and have some spare money.
 
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Brian, I understand your frustration. You are now seeing how the 'wholesale' and 'retail' world works... I was caught in the same trap when I speculated on a cue earlier this year. I made a little money on the deal and ended-up buying a cue that I will go to the grave with, but I know how hard it is to wheel and deal a cue.

Your best bet is to sell directly to an individual and then buy from a dealer if they have a cue you can't live without. If you are willing to wait... then you can buy from Ebay when a good cue comes up. You will get more for your money on Ebay, but will take a bigger risk of getting burned.

I have not made any money deals with the cuebrokers, but have spoken and e-mailed a few of them and found them to be quite nice and willing to talk about all aspects of cues and the current (tough) cue market. And they even gave me good advice on what was best for me to do with my cue.
 
Up until a few years ago, when I traded a cue, I felt I was treated very fairly. The market has changed since then. While the retail value of your cue may have increased since your purchase, the market is soft, and cues, in general, are not commanding the prices on the secondary market they did just a few years ago.

I sold a cue here a few months back. And while the retail value of the cue had risen on it, I sold it for much less. Cue was in awesome condition. Of course i would have like to have had more, but it was what the market would bear currently. As a rule, you're going to do less well on a trade vs sale anyway. The dealer can only take so much of a hit on a cue in a trade deal. And sometimes, they break even or lose on the resale of the trade. It can be a bit of a crap shoot for them. For some of these dealers it's a full-time job.

You did the right thing for you. You declined to take the hit on your cue. I would have done the same...1600.00 is a bit much to choke down. So, you go to another dealer, sell the cue outright and either order from the cuemaker or, wait for a similar to come available, or lastly...keep the cue.

Finally, some dealers are just easier to deal with than others. Decide on what is an acceptable bottom-line price on your cue, and find a dealer that is a bit more accommodating.

Lisa
 
I have dealt with several of the cue brokers over the last several years at these events. Yes, they always want to come out "ahead". Usually, they will make some type of deal if you throw cash into the deal, but they have, in my opinion, become much more difficult to deal with recently. You can say it is the "soft" cue market, but I don't truly buy into that. I think that many cuemakers have been hyped up and prices for their cues are artificially overblown...I am not referring to Szamboti, S/W or those types, but some newer makers that you all are aware of. The brokers also know this and, while they may have and will sell their cues at the inflated prices right now, they are unwilling to take the risk that the market for these cues will become saturated, etc. Truthfully, I had one of the bigger guys offer me $1400 for a Southwest 6 pointer last year at SBE....he said "I know that is what you paid for it because I have 2 on order now." I said "True enough, but I also waited for 7 years to get it. I will give you $1500 for each of yours when they arrive." Then I looked at his $2300-2500 6 pointers. Greed plays into the equation a little bit, also.
 
scruggsinhand said:
GOOD POINT ANDY>

cash is king>>this is probably some good advice and what i will end up doing also...thanks andy!

and i didnt have a problem with the dealer coming out ahead.....WITHIN REASON!!!!!!

so what is a reasonable percentage for a dealer to make on a cue????...i know what i will get for an answer...as much as possible...no shit...how about an intelligent answer...
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Brian, don't know if you are referring to us up at the Derby and it appears you are getting some advice and answers to your question. Hopefully this information will help you and others better understand things from a dealer's persepective. This is not an all-inclusive list and might not apply to your specific issue. Just a few things regarding cue-dealing at these shows that immediately comes to mind (from our perspective):

1) The "Cash is King" saying is sad but true. When you lay out several thousand dollars or more for booth fees, travel expenses, food and lodging, etc. just to do a show like the Derby, cash intake in essential. Even trades don't pay for your expenses....plain and simple. If you don't take in cash, it makes it real hard to continue doing shows.

2) Whatever your cue is valued at by the cuemaker rarely will equate to the same value on the secondary market. Used cues and 'production' cues always bring less and the design/style and condition also affects the subsequent sell-ability. If you get a perceived low-ball offer, that doesn't automatically mean that they are trying to screw you....maybe it is a fair offer based on what the dealer sees as the cue realistically bringing in today's market.

3) Dealers really do not like to take used cues in on trade (vs a brand new cue) that require refinish and shaft replacement/work. That should not be too hard to comprehend because the dealer a) probably paid cash for the brand new cue and B) then there is additional money needing to be spent for the used cue to make it ready even for sale. There's another old saying that applies here......."Time (and effort) is money".

4) Any buying or selling where haggling is prevalent....you usually start any negotiation process a little high or low with some room to meeting in the middle.

5) When you get to a point that have over 400 cues in stock, you really don't want to take more in unless it's a real special piece. Your primary focus is selling.

6) Just as you say that 'laughing in someone's face isn't you'....likewise that also is not us. You wouldn't believe some of the outlandish figures that people want us to pay for their cues or give them in trade value. So, we either say we can't allow that in trade, give a lowball offer as cordially as possible, or say we're not interested at all.

7) Dealers can't always please everyone with trades. You have something you want to get rid of and they have something you want.

8) Likewise, you are friends with some of your customers and even though you try your best to accomodate them, you always have to remember that expenses have to be paid.

9) While a dealer should try to be as fair as possible, trade offers sometimes might not be perceived as fair. Feelings should not be hurt because you have to realize that any one or more of the above situations probably apply when a consumer initiates a trade offer.

Hope you're having a good time at he Derby. Although it has been a bad show for sales, I'm looking forward to getting back up there for the conclusion of the tournament.

Sean
 
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Dealers

Dealers serve an important purpose. They help move cues, they have a lot of knowledge, and hopefully they act as quality control agents in the deals.

My feeling about dealers is:

- I might go to them when they have a cue I really want. I will work hard with them to get it. In this case, I expect to pay retail. I will haggle, offer trades, etc - whatever, but I don't take price issues personally. I work with the dealers who work with me.

- Once a relationship is established, they will come to me with inventory they don't want to put on their site. They liquidate trades at wholesale too. They maybe even have cues that need repair they don't want to deal with. I have a number of dealers who call me up now and I'll buy cues for parts, shafts, etc. and just sell those kinds of cues to me cheap.

- Trades - I think we need to take into account that a trade involves two separate transactions to a dealer. They are going to want to make a profit on both cues, or at least end up with a situation that will make profits more likely. Otherwise, why bother to trade?

Dealers have to come out ahead on a trade because now they are dealing with two profit margins. Here's an example:

Dealer buys a cue for $1500 and lists it for 2200.00, hoping to get at least $2,000 = 33% gross mark up over cost before expenses. They consider that profit "in the bank".

Customer wants to trade in a cue the dealer thinks he can list for $1700 and maybe get $1500. The customer thinks the cue is worth $1800. The dealer thinks he can move it for $1500 and needs to buy that cue for about $1100 to continue with his margin. Or, if nothing else, know that he can sell the cue right away at a little better than wholesale and bank the profits immediately.

So there you have it. There is a large difference between your percieved value of $1800 and the wholesale/trade-in value of $1100. The dealer wants to make a profit on the original sale and wants to make a profit on the trade. It makes sense to me that they should.

Instead of thinking badly about this dealer, or taking it personally, the easy and right thing to to is put a big line right though their name on your phone book.

Chris
 
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