triangles

[jondrums]

Its really hot right now to talk about "looking for triangles" as an end rack sequence. I have read several straight pool books and never seen this mentioned. I have to admit I'm kind of confused about the whole concept. Can someone enlighten me a little more?

Any three balls make a triangle right? As long as they aren't in a line, ok that makes sense - you don't want your last three in a line. Ok, got that.

So I should keep a triangle of three balls for the end. But which triangle?? When I look at a newly broken rack, I can find lots of nice looking triangles with a break ball. Is this helpful?

To me it seems that it is much more useful to find two or more balls that form a stop-shot sequence to get position on the desired break ball. Yes, those last three end up forming a triangle which is great, but that seems like fairly superfluous information.

can someone set me straight on the whole triangle business?

 

[3andstop]

I have to admit I'm kind of confused about the whole concept. Can someone enlighten me a little more?

Any three balls make a triangle right?

jondrums ... myself and a few pretty good players I play with are in the same boat as you .... LOL. Yep, that's the way we see it too. Any three balls make up a triangle.

I do believe the idea is to find your break shot, find your key ball and find your setup ball to the key. These three balls, in good proximity to each other for easy stop shots will make up an ideal "triangle". Balls in a line or distant from each other will not provide a good visual conceptual triangle. I believe it's more a way of referencing and picturing your last three.

Beyond that, I dunno ...

 

[TheWizard]

Hi Jondrums, I think that it would be worth while for you to watch the video that Blackjack did with spiderwebbcomm, there is a thread on it in here with links to the video

In the video, Blackjack mentions about the tirangles set up in general and I think that it may give you a better idea of what to look out for when working your way through the rack

EDIT - Here is the link to the thread and the video links are in Blackjack's initial posting

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=103622

I hope that this is of some help buddy, good luck

Willie

 

[jondrums]

Thanks TheWizard - I have seen that video, and enjoyed the information. But frankly - that video and the latest John Schmitt dvd are talking about triangles and not really explaining how to find them. Only that once you get there it looks like a traingle. Maybe I'm reading too much into the triangle thing.

That's why I say it seems like "its really hot right now"

ps. I found lots of good ideas here but more like "y" and "h" which actually makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[john schmidt]

hi

yes 3 balls form triangle but after i break rack i see this triangle and try to work backwards without disturbing it.it doesnt always work that way but you want your last few shots to be stop shots and that will usually be a nice little triangle. i would say 30 percent of time end of rack will be stop shot triangle stuff etc.

 

[TheWizard]

Hey Jondrums

I'm always happy to help if I can, we're all pool players after all

Hey John

I would look at a rack in a different way, than most players, but weith the same priciple in mind.

After my break shot, I look to find a KB and BB that I like and then I'll play through the rack a little untill I find 1 or 2 suitable set up balls, but I try not to limit myself to looking for the same triangle each time as it's not always available, sometimes the triangle has to be developed from a cluster. or if the KB is a little higher up table, then I'll try to leave a set up ball, that will get me the best shape possible on the KB

I was wondering how you find the rack pattern techniques nowadays, compared to what you would have seen from the legendary players like Carras, Mosconi, Crane, Butera, Rempe, etc?

If you have any copies of your latest DVD available in the UK, be sure to let me know

Willie

 

[elvicash]

Schmidt talks the triangles however it has made the books. Read some of the Johnny Holiday "Position play for straight pool", I believe he talks about this very thing.

 

[CueAndMe]

I was confused about the triangles for the same reason. I now realize that one extra step clears it all up.
The leg of the triangle that contains the key ball and its setup ball have to point to a pocket. That was the lightning bolt that cleared up end patterns for me and why I started the thread you linked to.

You don't have to go so far as drawing the "y","q", or "p" like I do. You just have to start with the break ball find a good key ball and then draw a line from the key ball's pocket through the key ball and beyond to locate the 3rd ball for an "end pattern worthy" triangle.

But since then I've realized that although this works beautifully for stop shot end patterns, there are many other key balls that are perfectly useful that shouldn't be excluded just because they require a little cueball movement. So really you should start with the break ball, find a useful keyball, and then draw a line from the key ball's pocket to the key ball and stop, then be willing to bend the line ALONG the perfect angle for that particular key ball to locate the perfect setup ball for that key ball.

I do have a slight issue with calling the three balls a "triangle" though. I may be missing something, but I don't see a reason to connect the setup ball to the break ball. So the 3rd leg is sort of superficial. Though if it helps you to retain the 3 balls in your memory better, maybe it's a good enough reason to fully form the triangle.

Anyway, here's an example of what I referred to above about bending the line to accomodate non-stopshot key balls:

CueTable Help

 

[mullyman]

I was confused about the triangles for the same reason. I now realize that one extra step clears it all up.
The leg of the triangle that contains the key ball and its setup ball have to point to a pocket. That was the lightning bolt that cleared up end patterns for me and why I started the thread you linked to.

You don't have to go so far as drawing the "y","q", or "p" like I do. You just have to start with the break ball find a good key ball and then draw a line from the key ball's pocket through the key ball and beyond to locate the 3rd ball for an "end pattern worthy" triangle.

But since then I've realized that although this works beautifully for stop shot end patterns, there are many other key balls that are perfectly useful that shouldn't be excluded just because they require a little cueball movement. So really you should start with the break ball, find a useful keyball, and then draw a line from the key ball's pocket to the key ball and stop, then be willing to bend the line ALONG the perfect angle for that particular key ball to locate the perfect setup ball for that key ball.

I do have a slight issue with calling the three balls a "triangle" though. I may be missing something, but I don't see a reason to connect the setup ball to the break ball. So the 3rd leg is sort of superficial. Though if it helps you to retain the 3 balls in your memory better, maybe it's a good enough reason to fully form the triangle.

Anyway, here's an example of what I referred to above about bending the line to accomodate non-stopshot key balls:

CueTable Help

But your example is a triangle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Personally, after watching John's 165 ball run DVD, and listening to him explain, and showing the triangle patterns, my end patterns have improved so much. I'll agree with you that it doesn't necessarily have to be stop/stop/stop though. I have no problems swinging around 2 or 3 rails if I have to. I think the stop/stop/stop theory is probably the best *IF* you can get that each time, but if not.....Mike Sigel really likes the 2 rail position shot so it can't be all bad.
MULLY

 

[BWTadpole]

Breaking news!

Any three balls on a pool table will form a triangle!

Haha, but I think David put up either a post on the CueTables or a few examples from his book in regards to these letter patterns. Does somebody have the link?

 

[CueAndMe]

But your example is a triangle. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Personally, after watching John's 165 ball run DVD, and listening to him explain, and showing the triangle patterns, my end patterns have improved so much. I'll agree with you that it doesn't necessarily have to be stop/stop/stop though. I have no problems swinging around 2 or 3 rails if I have to. I think the stop/stop/stop theory is probably the best *IF* you can get that each time, but if not.....Mike Sigel really likes the 2 rail position shot so it can't be all bad.
MULLY

I agree that there's a triangle that can be formed by the 3 balls, but I would argue that the balls only represent points in space. These same 3 balls can also lie within the shape of an arrow, a circle, a "y", a Ferrari, or a lollipop.

My point is that only after an appropriate set of 3 balls is found can you call it a triangle...or a Ferrari.

But the main goal is to actually find these 3 balls. And the way you do it can't be by solely looking for triangles because, as others have posted, every 3 balls on the table that don't lie in a straight line form a triangle. I'm not a statistician, but if 14 balls are on a table and no 3 balls lie in a straight line, I believe the number of 3-ball combinations is 14!/3!(11!) which equals 364 possible triangles.

So we need a way to eliminate the bad triangles. Adding break balls to the requirement eliminates a lot of them but not enough. To completely eliminate the bad ones while still retaining all potentially good ones we need a method. The method adds pockets and angles.

When a good player finds triangles, I think much more has gone on subconsciously before they've decided on an appropriate one. They're not wrong about seeing triangles. But they're finding them by subconsciously going through a process that involves pockets and angles without realizing that there is such a process going on since it has become intinctive for them.

 

[Blackjack]

This is actually a very simple principle that will help you to get on the break ball much easier...

Here is a diagram that I have posted before that illustrates the basic principle that John Schmidt and I both teach.

If I have a break ball develop (at any time in the rack) I look for a ball that is directly parallel and in line with that break ball. This is my key ball - and its location is where I want my cue ball to be to pocket that designated break ball. So I draw a line from the break ball (in the above illustration it is the 3 ball) directly to the 9 ball - that is one line.

From there, I look any ball on the table ball that I could use as a the cue ball to shoot that 9 ball in with a stop shot. In this illustration - I have the 12 ball. So I draw a line from the 12 to the 9 ball.

Now - I hear everybody saying why do we need the 3rd line?

We need the 3rd line (from the break ball to the set up ball) because we need to plan our position to the set up ball. By drawing a line from the 3 to the 12, I give myself a general idea of where I want to be for my last few shots, and in this case, I want stop shot position for every shot.

Like John said earlier, this won't always develop, and each situation will be different and will have different factors that you will need to weigh out.

I am providing this diagram just to give the basic explanation, but in my classes, I go backwards through the rack - (example - which ball connects to the 12 ball - and so on)...

I highly recommend any of John's DVD's as well as the new DVD that Danny Harriman is coming out with - there is a TON of great 14.1 information that is going to be available for everybody. Take advantage of all the information you can get from all of the great players - and keep an open mind about everything they are teaching, because it does work.

 

[TheWizard]

This is actually a very simple principle that will help you to get on the break ball much easier...

Here is a diagram that I have posted before that illustrates the basic principle that John Schmidt and I both teach.

If I have a break ball develop (at any time in the rack) I look for a ball that is directly parallel and in line with that break ball. This is my key ball - and its location is where I want my cue ball to be to pocket that designated break ball. So I draw a line from the break ball (in the above illustration it is the 3 ball) directly to the 9 ball - that is one line.

From there, I look any ball on the table ball that I could use as a the cue ball to shoot that 9 ball in with a stop shot. In this illustration - I have the 12 ball. So I draw a line from the 12 to the 9 ball.

Now - I hear everybody saying why do we need the 3rd line?

We need the 3rd line (from the break ball to the set up ball) because we need to plan our position to the set up ball. By drawing a line from the 3 to the 12, I give myself a general idea of where I want to be for my last few shots, and in this case, I want stop shot position for every shot.

Like John said earlier, this won't always develop, and each situation will be different and will have different factors that you will need to weigh out.

I am providing this diagram just to give the basic explanation, but in my classes, I go backwards through the rack - (example - which ball connects to the 12 ball - and so on)...

I highly recommend any of John's DVD's as well as the new DVD that Danny Harriman is coming out with - there is a TON of great 14.1 information that is going to be available for everybody. Take advantage of all the information you can get from all of the great players - and keep an open mind about everything they are teaching, because it does work.

I have also noticed that there is another "Triangle" lay up for the KB and BB, (#1 for the SUB, #13 KB and #3 as the BB) which I persoanaly would prefer to shoot this kind of layout because it keeps the CB a little closer to my work

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree though wholeheartedly that there is so much to learn out there that is worth taking the time to learn about

Willie

 

[CueAndMe]

That triangle is surely one of the ones I like to see at the end of my rack. As is TheWizard's. But they are only 2 of the many that are worth considering and I think that only looking above the break ball and parallel to it is too limiting.

How about these end patterns that all work for the 3-ball break shot:
9,13,3
13,9,3
13,12,3
13,6,3
9,6,3
5,15,3
5,13,3
14,13,3
11,15,3
11,13,3
10,13,3
2,13,3
8,13,3
8,12,3
1,12,3
14,12,3
15,12,3
10,12,3
4,12,3
6,12,3
11,12,3
2,12,3
5,12,3
1,14,3
11,10,3
2,10,3
8,10,3
11,4,3
2,4,3
9,5,3
8,5,3

There are probably just as many for the other 3 or 4 break balls available on this layout. This begs the question, "what determines a good key ball?" I propose that unless the keyball is too close and beneath the break ball what makes for a good keyball is the position of the setup ball before it.

Is the 5-ball a good keyball in this layout? Yes, but only because of the location of the 8-ball setup. And going a little further, the 8-ball is even better for the setup because the 12-ball is in a perfect position for the shot before.

 

[TSW]

I agree that there's a triangle that can be formed by the 3 balls, but I would argue that the balls only represent points in space. These same 3 balls can also lie within the shape of an arrow, a circle, a "y", a Ferrari, or a lollipop.

My point is that only after an appropriate set of 3 balls is found can you call it a triangle...or a Ferrari.

But the main goal is to actually find these 3 balls. And the way you do it can't be by solely looking for triangles because, as others have posted, every 3 balls on the table that don't lie in a straight line form a triangle. I'm not a statistician, but if 14 balls are on a table and no 3 balls lie in a straight line, I believe the number of 3-ball combinations is 14!/3!(11!) which equals 364 possible triangles.

So we need a way to eliminate the bad triangles. Adding break balls to the requirement eliminates a lot of them but not enough. To completely eliminate the bad ones while still retaining all potentially good ones we need a method. The method adds pockets and angles.

When a good player finds triangles, I think much more has gone on subconsciously before they've decided on an appropriate one. They're not wrong about seeing triangles. But they're finding them by subconsciously going through a process that involves pockets and angles without realizing that there is such a process going on since it has become intinctive for them.

I think bluepepper hit the nail on the head. "Triangle" end patterns is a misnomer - what people really mean is "a triangle-shaped pattern that also fulfills these other implicit criteria." John Schmidt and Blackjack et. al. eliminate the many imperfect end patterns automatically because they see these good patterns so well.

It's great to look for perfect stop-stop-stop end patterns. Hell, it's great to look for "stop shot drill" style runs where you clear the entire rack with nothing but perfect stop shots. For us weaker players, it would be great to have some clearly defined parameters of what makes a good key ball and secondary key ball. Because when things (inevitably) go wrong, parameters such as that make it much, much easier to recover.

I think there's still a lot of work to be done in defining such parameters. Straight pool players have spent a lot of time focusing on what makes a good break ball and very subtle differences between break shots. This is just taking that same process and rolling it back a couple of balls, which of course adds much more complexity.

 

[jondrums]

After reading blackjack's post, things are becoming a little more clear.

I think what blackjack and js mean to say is that you pick a bb, find a ball where you wish you cb would be for the break. Then find a ball THAT MAKES A NICE LOOKING TRAINGLE with the bb and kb.

A NICE LOOKING triangle would be something close to an equilateral triangle or maybe as far out as a right triangle.

I think this is probably useful as a very simple rule of thumb. But I feel like bluepepper's advise to find a ball on the line between the kb and its pocket is way more useful!

thanks for ALL the replies, I'm understanding a lot better some of this stuff - although I think I'd heard/read it already under different terms.

I will definately check out Johnny Holiday's book - thanks!

 

[CueAndMe]

I think bluepepper hit the nail on the head. "Triangle" end patterns is a misnomer - what people really mean is "a triangle-shaped pattern that also fulfills these other implicit criteria." John Schmidt and Blackjack et. al. eliminate the many imperfect end patterns automatically because they see these good patterns so well.

It's great to look for perfect stop-stop-stop end patterns. Hell, it's great to look for "stop shot drill" style runs where you clear the entire rack with nothing but perfect stop shots. For us weaker players, it would be great to have some clearly defined parameters of what makes a good key ball and secondary key ball. Because when things (inevitably) go wrong, parameters such as that make it much, much easier to recover.

I think there's still a lot of work to be done in defining such parameters. Straight pool players have spent a lot of time focusing on what makes a good break ball and very subtle differences between break shots. This is just taking that same process and rolling it back a couple of balls, which of course adds much more complexity.

I agree that there's still work to be done. I don't think there's much more that can be done in finding end patterns though. The list of end patterns in my previous post was to be exhaustive, but even so it only took about 6 minutes or so to do because of the through-the-pocket/"y,p,q" technique. As long as you know that what makes for a good key ball is the position of the ball before it, you have an easy road map to find them. With a 45 second shot clock, of course you can't go nuts like I did. Unless you can think really fast.

But I think what would help would be to come up with a rule for deciding which of the many, and there are many, easily workable end patterns are the best to save for a particular layout of balls. I'm talking about choosing the best end pattern that allows for easy maneuvering to run the rest of the balls without disturbing that end pattern. The pattern you choose should also allow for easy entry into it once the rest of the balls have been run. With these things in mind, it may be wrong to save the prettiest end pattern if it gets in the way of running the rest of the balls. Fortunately, as you can see, there are usually a bunch to choose from.

Just thinking about it now, maybe what we should be looking for is the most isolated/out of the way end pattern. In the Blackjack layout, his triangle of the 12,9,3 happens to be what I think would be the perfect choice here. None of the 3 balls are blocking pockets or cueball paths for the others, and it would be very unlikely that you'd disturb it while running the rest of the rack. So not only is it pretty, it's probably the right choice of the many available, especially since you can get to the 12 easily after pretty much any of the other balls.

 

[mullyman]

Looking at BlackJack's diagram and reading what the original poster wrote about how we go about finding the triangle pattern made me think about how I would look at that layout if it was presented to me.

Ok, for myself, looking at this layout, I would choose possible patterns out of there. The reason I would do that is that my control is such that I have the very high possibility that I could get out of line going to my end pattern so I want something else to fall back on in the event that happens. I like Dave's triangle and then I have the red pattern as a back up. It's a lot tighter but if I fall on it correctly then there is very little CB movement....and like I said, it's a back up. The blue pattern is one of my triangles to the break ball but not having the break ball inside the triangle. 3 key balls if you will.

I don't know if this is the right way to go about it or not but I don't like to limit myself to one pattern and this seems to be working for me.
MULLY

 

[Dan White]

I think maybe you guys are overthinking the triangle idea a little. You want to look for a triangle pattern that gives you a stop-stop sequence on the break ball. If you can't find a triangle that gives the stop-stop, then you aren't in one of the 30% situations John mentioned. So do something else. Lou over in RSB noticed in one of John Schmidt's videos that he ended up with a key ball in the rack area frequently. I've been using this lately, either stunning over to break ball position, or going off the side rail. It works great if you know the speed and angle. So if you don't have a good stop-stop triangle, use a ball in the rack and a set up ball that gives you a good angle on that ball, for instance (it's a pretty consistent shot once you know the right speed):

CueTable Help

 

[CueAndMe]

Mully, I see what you mean about back up. I'm curious though. At some point you have to decide to pick off the back ups. In this case are you just keeping all 5 balls until last and deciding then?

I don't think you would be alone in that thought, because I don't think most of the pros think that far ahead. And chances are, if the balls are spaced nicely and grouped together and out of the way like they are here, you'll probably be fine to land on the break ball properly.

Oh yeah, and what about the 15-ball. Are you concerned about it being in the midst of your triangles?