Trudeau in contempt...

bagofpaper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hejests said:
I have to agree with blackjack here. It's a really slippery slope. If you think about what this boils down to (get past the fact that we all really really dislike trudeau): The goverment in this case is evaluating the content of speech (it's truth quotient) and deciding whether it's legal to speak it or not. The government is basically saying this isn't "true" so you can't speak it. That's scary as all hell. How exactly does the government evaluate truth? (at the time when everyone thought the world was flat, it wasn't "true" that world was indeed not flat...")

Abuses are the costs of freedoms. It's a catch-22 .

Edit: Within reasonable limits... hate speech is a different story IMO

Nobody sold scam products that used that information in informercials. That's the point. Go try and sell "solid gold" chains made of plastic painted with gold colored paint and then tell the judge when you get sued "I have first amendment rights!".. LOL!
 

corvette1340

www.EpawnMarket.com
Silver Member
Do I think KT deserves to rot in prison? Yes.

Do I think KT is a smart man? Yes.

Do I feel sorry for the public that bought his miracle cures and quick fixers? No.

Do I feel sorry for the pool players that bought into another one of his schemes? No.

The bottom line is that KT is a low down conman snake in the grass and has been for years and years. His run ins with the law and FCC are well documented. The fact that he continues to come up with new scams to make money and people still buy them is a testament to how dumb some people really are. I think that if KT actually went into to a legitimate business that was morally correct then he would be a success, but like many people he sees that he can make more money quicker by preying on the less knowledgeable gullible public. Do you think that KT is the only one getting rich off of ridiculous infomercial products? KT started the IPT because he saw a product that hadn't been utilized yet(pool) and thought he could make it into a mainstream sport and make millions. He was wrong, and when he realized this he pulled the plug. Now he is making little payments because his lawyers have advised him to in order to avoid litigation. KT didnt give a damn about any of the players and KT doesn't give a rats ass about little old sally down the street that spent her last $30 trying to find a cure for her canker sores and lose a quick ten pounds after the holidays. I say fry him and go ahead and fry Sally for being dumb. IMO
 

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
As someone mentioned, not everyone has computers.

As someone else mentioned, you have a reasonable right to expect that something being sold to you is not based on lies.

This free speech thing is really throwing me for a loop. I haven't a clue how it's being inserted into this argument. If you buy a PS3 for your kid, he opens the box on Christmas morning and it's a rubber duckie instead, do you have no legal recourse with Sony? Of course you do.

So KT sells ideas instead of products (with this book, anyway). I am quite sure it's the same thing. He is advertising one thing, and giving you another.

If a trick shot artist scheduled an exhibition, with flyers stipulating the general gist of his show, and then he showed a single draw shot, unscrewed, and left, I promise you his "free speech" would not be protected.

I was playing at a tournament a little over a year ago in which KT showed up. One of the ladies working in the convenience store of the hotel was telling me her "hero was in the building". I asked her who, and she told me KT. She just went on and on about his brilliance, and how the world was trying to shun him but he refused to back down, blah blah blah. I am telling you, this poor girl never had a chance. She was working a $6 an hour job, did not seem very educated, but probably owned a television or two. Internet access? Maybe. The insight or forethought to google this very convincing man selling a product she really wanted? No way.

By the way, I do not share this same type of sympathy for people who are scammed with, say, the Nigerian emails. That is a different thing entirely - there is nothing authentic about those scams at all (spelling errors, broken english, a pitch that barely makes any sense, etc...) and any person with an ounce of sense should be able to see that.

KT's stuff, to the average, nondiscerning person, looks very authentic. Do you know how much weight, to a simple-minded person, the term "New York Times Bestseller" carries?

- Steve
 

catscradle

<< 2 all-time greats
Silver Member
corvette1340 said:
.... The fact that he continues to come up with new scams to make money and people still buy them is a testament to how dumb some people really are...

... or how desperate.
 

Gerry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I usually stay out of these kinds of threads but I smell.......a big hooptydo in court....a few slaps on the wrist....a few mergers/bankruptcies...and Mr T back on the tube in a year or so hocking some other snake oil.

as a former super fat ass myself.....just quit stuffing your face, or excersize more....or god forbid do both if you want to slim down quickly! there is NO magic diet or potion....put down the twinky and back away and go for a walk tankass! :D

Gerry
 

hejests

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bagofpaper said:
Nobody sold scam products that used that information in informercials. That's the point. Go try and sell "solid gold" chains made of plastic painted with gold colored paint and then tell the judge when you get sued "I have first amendment rights!".. LOL!
It's a little different though. You can objectively establish that plastic is not gold. Either it's gold or it isn't gold. If it isn't gold, it's fraud.

How do you objectively establish that something is or isn't "easy"? KT's selling an "easy" way to lose weight. Can you really hold someone accountable for misrepresenting "easy" and how do you establish what's "easy" and what isn't? That's my problem with this case. It's not clear fraud at all.

(Hey that's an easy 7 ball run out, table's open, it should be a breeze. C player walks up, pooches position on the second ball and misses the 3rd ball. Walks away from the table and says, dang that would have been a hard run.)
 

Hunter

The King of Memes
Silver Member
Freedom of speech and outright fraud are two totally different concepts. I'm also a huge advocate of free speech, but this has nothing to do with it. It is outright deception and fraud.

Freedom of speech is basically being allowed to express your personal opinion, even if it goes against the mainstream or majority opinion. We are talking ideas here, something that usually isn't quantifiable, who is the better candidate, what do we think of this proposition, etc..

Fraud deals more with a deliberate addition or ommission of facts that would knowingly mislead a prospective buyer.

Being a salesman, I don't believe that the only people that fall for these kinds of scams are stupid or "fish". I truly believe that a lot of otherwise intelligent pool players fell for Kevin's promise of big bucks at the end of the rainbow because they wanted to believe that pool can be a real sport with a payoff similiar to other organized sports. Did this make them stupid? They could have Googled KT and found out what he's done for the world of infomercials.

People want to believe that they can lose weight without effort. They want to believe that you can't say something in print if it isn't true. An unscrupulous salesman learns to prey on the weaknesses of others, and if they have learned their trade well, they become predators that have no remorse for their victims. That's why there needs to be regulation...

Steve
 

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
When he gets out of the shit house he can pen something to the effect of " PAINLESS ANAL SEX IS NOT AN URBAN LEGEND"
 

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Poor Founding Fathers

The fact that the brilliant design of the bill of rights/constitution is being balled up and repeatedly thrown in the trash must be causing the writers to turn in their grave, kicking and screaming. The bill of rights was written a few hundred years ago, when people had simple lives.

Comparison - Does the right to bear arms include intercontinental ballistic missiles? Of course not.

Does the freedom of speech allow you drive around residential neighborhoods at 3 a.m. using a 120 decible microphone advertising your new widget? Of course not. Free speech is not/should not be protected when the method of delivering it (or the message) violates other laws.

I know the founding fathers wanted people to be able to carry weapons, but they could never have envisioned a 21st century weapon. Similarily, they could have never imagined what freedom of speech would be used to protect.

While the consumer should protect themselves, all of the false ads for products should be cause to imprision the CEO of the company selling the product.

I think there should be a constitutional amendment negating and preventing these dubious uses of the 1st amendment in order to justify illegal practices.

I choose to avoid all ads if I can, if and when they start telling the truth, I will watch them.
 

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
Blackjack - by your logic, then all slander and libel laws should be chucked into the trash. After all, printing or speaking complete falsehoods about another party - even if they are damaging - should be considered "free speech" as well.
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
ScottW said:
Blackjack - by your logic, then all slander and libel laws should be chucked into the trash. After all, printing or speaking complete falsehoods about another party - even if they are damaging - should be considered "free speech" as well.


Not really.

Think about it.

Kevin is a charletain. A snake oil salesman. His claims are outrageous. Anybody with limited to average intelligence can figure that out. IMO, he enjoys his colonics a little bit too much to be considered "normal".

Consumers have rights. I understand that. What they are trying to do with Trudeau is silence him, and IMO, that is unnecessary. He'll always find a way to peddle his garbage - if they ban him here - he'll go elsewhere. It's what he does. He targets people that are looking for hope - he reels them in only to disappoint them later. He's a lowest form of scum you'll find roaming the earth.

As I said earlier, I don't support what he's doing, however I don't support what the FTC is doing either. When you start limiting rights - and I don't agree with this judge at all - you will start a snowball effect created by case law.

Is Kevin in contempt? Yes.

Can they do much about it? No.

The FTC has gone after Kevin several times legally - Kevin has never spent a day in jail over it. Why? The FTC knows that they cannot convict him of anything because in doing so they will violate his first amendment rights. Plain and simple. That is why KT keeps getting a slap on the wrist. It's a touchy case, and Kevin tip-toes through the loop holes and laughs all the way to the bank. Like I said, he is the lowest form of scum roaming the earth.
 

wayne

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hejests said:
It's a little different though. You can objectively establish that plastic is not gold. Either it's gold or it isn't gold. If it isn't gold, it's fraud.

How do you objectively establish that something is or isn't "easy"? KT's selling an "easy" way to lose weight. Can you really hold someone accountable for misrepresenting "easy" and how do you establish what's "easy" and what isn't? That's my problem with this case. It's not clear fraud at all.

(Hey that's an easy 7 ball run out, table's open, it should be a breeze. C player walks up, pooches position on the second ball and misses the 3rd ball. Walks away from the table and says, dang that would have been a hard run.)

That is what I was thinking. The judge is determining for example getting 15 colon cleanses in 30 days is not "easy". However, to get a colon cleanse all you do is lie there while a machine sucks everything out of your colon. At the end of it you are no longer full of s__t. (Of course for some, it might not be easy, having a tube stuck up your ....., however, for others it might not be just easy but something they look forward to.)
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where can I buy a book on how to aim using the reflections of the overhead lights on the cue and object balls?
 

cuejoey

25 mm chain guns matter
Silver Member
wayne said:
That is what I was thinking. The judge is determining for example getting 15 colon cleanses in 30 days is not "easy". However, to get a colon cleanse all you do is lie there while a machine sucks everything out of your colon. At the end of it you are no longer full of s__t. (Of course for some, it might not be easy, having a tube stuck up your ....., however, for others it might not be just easy but something they look forward to.)
And just think if you have to borrow alot of money and go into debt for colon cleanses trudeau sells a book to help a person get out of debt..what a guy..:eek:
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Trudeau is a sociopath, plain and simple. He is not concerned in the least about anyone or anything other than himself. He will look you in the eye and lie about anything that will enrich or enhance himself. A man like this has no true friends, only a few employees like Dumbo who are easily misled.

Eventually he will get his comeuppance and it may not be pretty. The jurisprudence system wants this guy and they are going to find a way to bring him down. He may lam it out of the USA before he goes to jail though. That wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'm quite sure he has enough loot hidden away to last a lifetime or two.

Just remember you heard it here first. This is not a guy who is willing to sit in the federal slammer for 50-60 months.
 

MrLucky

Pool Fanatic!!
Silver Member
You are correct...

Steve Lipsky said:
Blackjack, can you elaborate on your position? I am curious how you consider this to be free speech? He is lying to the consumer in trying to get them to buy his products.

Lies are not protected speech as far as I know.

In addition, a couple years ago he signed some kind of document stating he would no longer falsely advertise on TV. I'm sure that document was specifically designed to give more of a legal backdrop to sue him in case he started this crap again.

- Steve
He is in contempt because of his history of false advertising he did sign and agree to certain restrictions on what he could say and advertise over the air in the future! He has blatantly violated that agreement according to the indictment which means he will not slip out of this one!
I agree with Davids stance that there is a Consumer beware issue here also but his settlement with the government will and does override that.

One thing many folks overlook is that when peoples health is poor they will try anything to save their lives and health, my own Mom who is going on 88 this Feb. just had a severe bout with Cancer and she actually bought one of his packages that she heard about through his infomercials :(
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TATE said:
Kudos to Fatboy who called this one right here on AZ months ago and hit the nail on the head.

Chris


TATE said:
Kudos to Fatboy who called this one right here on AZ months ago and hit the nail on the head.

Chris


thank you

its what i do for a living, when its your business you have a deper understanding of it than most people who know more about their professions. I'm c ertainly not the sharpest guy out there but when something comes that I know about, i'm honest about it and share my knowlege, when I dont know about something I'll be the first to admit I dont and I DONT MAKE THINGS UP.

I do believe KT will have some trouble over his new commercial "Debt Cures", That business REALLY crossover with mine and he will catch some heat from that, I think he might have his hands full, the real question here is the First Amendment, you can write anything in a book you want (almost) but going on TV and promoting the book is a gray area of the law, Larry Flynt tested the waters with alot of porn and to quote him "all you can convict me of is bad taste" or something close to that,

Kevin told me personally that that he firmly believes that what he says on TV to promote his books and using exerpts from his books is protected under the First Amendment and by extension the TV commercial. This is untested waters as far as I know there is no case law on this, he is frede to state his opinion "its easy" SVB thinks running 5 racks of 10 ball is easy, well its the same thing and yes both statments are protected, but what about TV? We dont know, and we wont for along time it will be appealed to a higher court, it could go as high as the supreme court-this is a very important case if there is no case law-in court case law is everything.

As far as the FTC lady talking about consumer redress for the people who bought the books thats a dream, aint gonna happen, in his Stipulated Order and Judgment(I read the whole thing) he is permitted to write books it says so clearly and conspicously, Kevin made sure that language was there when he negoitated that, I negoated my order 10 years ago and havent violated it, its a bi-lateral deal between me and the Govt. Same with KT or anyone else. Consumer redress funds never reach the victims of the crime,,,,ever the recovered $$$ is awalys "used" to cover the cost of the investigation, thats a line of shit the FTC uses to look good.


If KT wins this, it will be good for pool because KT will be making tons of $$$ and I know he will be back and has a plan and dosent need the players trust, just remember I said this, i will not elaborate on it.


The down side is the Southern Distruict of Ilionios is the WORST place in the country for marketers to get busted, I have a friend who just got 13 years Fed time and another looking at 17-175 years he was endited 4 yrs 10 months after the civil case was resolved, he has a $104,000,000 judgement aginst him. He thought he was done and the Southern District of Ill popped him criminaly and he will never see daylight, the guy who got 13 years cooperated and was looking at 3-14 and for cooperating he got 1 year off, thats rough. So KT is in hot water because of the venue, he will file a motion to change venues like anyone in their right mind would, if he gets that he'll be fine, if not it will be a tougher road.


In summary he has a legitamate First Amendment case in a tough jurstiction, he has great lawyers, the Natural Cures book will not be troublesome, the Diet Book might be the Debt Cures book will cause him sever penalitys if he dosent win the Freedom of Speech case, he believes he will and saw it comming, he is very smart. It is short sighted to wish bad on him, because he fully intends on doing something with pool and make amends which will take alot of $$$ so he needs to win this case for that to happen, and even looking past him, if people cant go on TV to advertize under the first Amenbdment there will be alot of troubles stemming from that, but back to KT, he wins pool will win-he told me. I also know why what happened happened and it was bad for everyone, you can get mad at the people who outlawed on-line gaming. That was the death of KT's pool venture.

mark my words, if i'm wrong i'll be the firstto admit it, but i'd bet on this one, he'll probably win.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Blackjack said:
The FTC has gone after Kevin several times legally - Kevin has never spent a day in jail over it. Why? The FTC knows that they cannot convict him of anything because in doing so they will violate his first amendment rights. Plain and simple. That is why KT keeps getting a slap on the wrist. It's a touchy case, and Kevin tip-toes through the loop holes and laughs all the way to the bank. Like I said, he is the lowest form of scum roaming the earth.


the FTC only deals in cival matters and dosent have the enforcement to put anyone in jail, they can take away all your $$$, the have to form whats called a multi-force task team and get the FBI, State Attorny Generals offices, Postal Inspectors(worse then the FBI) then your case goes criminal and you get locked up, the FTC cant do it alone. Just like city cops cant put you in the Fed camps just city jail, a juroy puts you oin state prison and the feds put you in a fed camp.


I read this thread and I'm not knocking anyone but there are alot of misconceptions here about how the system works, etc. This is what I do for a living I have been around this since 93, I might make a mistake because i'm not a Lawyer but i'm 98% sure of my above post and this one as well.


Also please understand I AM NOT ON ANY SIDE HERE I'M ONLY CLEARING UP SOME OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS HERE as I would hope anyone would set me straight if I was confused about something, i'm not trying to be a smart ass or know it all, i dont but this is my businessand I know alot of guys locked up and poured over their cases, so I wouldnt get locked up. KT has too, some of my clients, friends, foes etc are sitting in jail for way to long, one frind lost $16,000,000 and didnt do anything to far outside the lines, the punishment dosent fit the crimes ever since Enron.


At the end of the day its due process and the Govt is bound by laws and case law when any case goes to trial, it dosent matter if the defendant is a good guy or a bad guy, a liar , his charcter is not what is at trial it is his trade practices, compliuance with previously negoitated deals made with the government, and if he is in willful disreguard of the law that is suppost to be applied evenly to all of us, selective enforcement against some one because he/she isnt liked wont stick in court defence laywers will eat that for breakfast. C ivil cases are tougher to defend than criminal cases because of the standards of proof and reasonable doubt are different than in crimianl matters, I could go on but this is AZ billiards not the Fatboy School of Law,,,,LOL i'm not even a lawyer, I just read alot and I might have a couple things wrong here but not much. I just want to see pool do good, action happen, new players come into the game, and most importantly I want to play better. ;)
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Fatboy said:
the FTC only deals in cival matters and dosent have the enforcement to put anyone in jail, they can take away all your $$$, the have to form whats called a multi-force task team and get the FBI, State Attorny Generals offices, Postal Inspectors(worse then the FBI) then your case goes criminal and you get locked up, the FTC cant do it alone. Just like city cops cant put you in the Fed camps just city jail, a juroy puts you oin state prison and the feds put you in a fed camp.


I read this thread and I'm not knocking anyone but there are alot of misconceptions here about how the system works, etc. This is what I do for a living I have been around this since 93, I might make a mistake because i'm not a Lawyer but i'm 98% sure of my above post and this one as well.


Also please understand I AM NOT ON ANY SIDE HERE I'M ONLY CLEARING UP SOME OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS HERE as I would hope anyone would set me straight if I was confused about something, i'm not trying to be a smart ass or know it all, i dont but this is my businessand I know alot of guys locked up and poured over their cases, so I wouldnt get locked up. KT has too, some of my clients, friends, foes etc are sitting in jail for way to long, one frind lost $16,000,000 and didnt do anything to far outside the lines, the punishment dosent fit the crimes ever since Enron.


At the end of the day its due process and the Govt is bound by laws and case law when any case goes to trial, it dosent matter if the defendant is a good guy or a bad guy, a liar , his charcter is not what is at trial it is his trade practices, compliuance with previously negoitated deals made with the government, and if he is in willful disreguard of the law that is suppost to be applied evenly to all of us, selective enforcement against some one because he/she isnt liked wont stick in court defence laywers will eat that for breakfast. C ivil cases are tougher to defend than criminal cases because of the standards of proof and reasonable doubt are different than in crimianl matters, I could go on but this is AZ billiards not the Fatboy School of Law,,,,LOL i'm not even a lawyer, I just read alot and I might have a couple things wrong here but not much. I just want to see pool do good, action happen, new players come into the game, and most importantly I want to play better. ;)

Thanks Fatboy for all this good information. I just have one question for you. Howya hittin' 'em? :)
 
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