It's easy to get religion and spirituality mixed up. One is by man and the other by a higher being. To think the human mind is the beginning and end of everything seems to be very limited.Russ Chewning said:There's an idea that given two choices between highly improbable events, the simpler is much more often statiscally going to be true.
1. God was always in existence, and there is nothing that caused him to be in existence. Then, he created the universe with the power of will.
2. The universe was always in existence, and there is nothing that caused it to be in existence.
I can see which one has the extra, more complicated step in it. Can you? Of course, this does not "prove" anything. I am only asking the question:
If "God" has to be accepted as always having been in existence, with no cause...
Why can't the universe be accepted as always having been in existence, with no cause?
And I will discuss one more question I have for mainly Christians:
(Note, I am NOT against Christianity, I just have certain question about Christian beliefs)
Christians, or at least certain denominations, believe in Hell as a final place of punishment, with eternal torture, blah blah, rey rey.
When asked, "What justifies Hell? And eternal punishment?" The answer is almost always the same.
You made the personal choice to deny God/Jesus Christ, so you made the choice yourself.
Nice try, but no ceegar for you!
Here's why that doesn't work. Christian belief structure attributes three core properties to God:
Omniscience: Knows Past, Present, and Future
Omnipresence: Is Present all throughout time, everywhere.
Omnipotence: He can do anything, i.e. all powerful.
Every Christian I ever talked to acknowledges these fundamental properties.
Well, unfortunately, "free will" cannot existence within the construct of a universe with this being.
Here's why: Before God "created" you, he knew everything you would ever do in your life. Therefore, if he knew you would "sin" and would not ask forgiveness, and he created you anyway, then he is directly responsible for your actions. His mere act of creation condemned you to Hell. Furthermore, he creating you to be the being you would be, all your actions are preordained.
You can't have "free will" in a system where everything you ever do is preordained.
Just an interesting discussion. I normally wouldn't discuss this stuff on here, but you guys started it!
FWIW, I lean much more towards agnosticism than atheism. Reading the Bible all the way through three times in high school has given me a solid foundation on what the Christian religion consists of, however. Just keep that in mind if anyone wishes to debate me on this.
Russ
True Believer's Syndrome
- Thread starter Dr. Dissent
- Start date
av84fun said:
Actually, I am not talking about proof/nonproof of God's existence. I am talking about what MUST be fundamental properties of the universe both with, and without an initial creator. The question remains, which you've conveniently ignored.
If "God" has to be accepted as always having been in existence, with no cause... (By those who believe in him as defined in various religious documents)
Why can't the universe be accepted as always having been in existence, with no cause?
Sorry, but if you refuse to answer this question, everything that follows is suspect.
I don't know "why" a serial killer kills people, either, but I still know it's wrong. If God is defined by religion as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, IT FOLLOWS that all actions of all beings he creates are his direct responsibility, since he knew the result before he created the being.
Would you agree that it is wrong to torture somebody for eternity for something YOU made them do? By the mere act of his creating you, he preordained everything you would ever do. This is a necessary fact brought about by his omniscience and omnipresence. There is no way around this. Are you getting my argument here? Please, if you are going to respond, respond to my "specific" arguments. Don't use the common tactic of making blanket responses.
I am not trying to explain his actions. Again..(And I'll keep saying it as long as you keep ignoring it) I am simply defining the universe within the constraints of the Christian belief structure. I am sorry that universe doesn't make sense, but I didn't make the rules.
WOW, do you warp the math!! By your math, there is a 50/50 chance ANYTHING, or ANY GOD does/does not exist in this world.
Now I'm REALLY gonna jack up your argument. This same "logic" can be used by some podunk little tribe in the depths of the Amazon. They have a little evil spirit named Buju Banton (sic). They have a religion built around Buju Banton that says every three months, they have to pray to Buju Banton, and have to monetarily support his spiritual human representative on Earth, the tribal chief.
Some tribal members are thinking they are getting ripped off here, so they say so. The tribal leader responds with "Whether there is or isn't a Buju Banton is a 50/50 proposition and what is your risk of betting there is no Buju Banton vs. your reward for betting that there is? If there is, and you don't pay, he will torture you after you die for all eternity. If there isn't, and you do pay, you haven't really lost anything of consequence. Any Hold 'Em player worth his ticket to Vegas would go all in on a bet that there is."
Does this seem familiar? Basically, any religion on earth can use this logic. Some of those religions directly conflict with Christianity on what gets you to "heaven" instead of "Hell".
So, since you have done wierd monkey math to arrive at your odds, let me change them a little, to make them more accurate.
Every religion on earth just about has a different "salvation" plan. Just about every one says their plan is right, and all others are wrong, and that you go to hell or something like it if you don't follow the right plan.
So.. we straight so far? There are at LEAST 3,000 religions/sects/cults/belief structures on earth. Assuming one of them IS right, this give you roughly a 1 in 3000 chance that the one YOU picked is right.
Now if you accept that only one religion can be completely right, you are taking enormously long odds that you've picked the right one. This is what you seem to have done by choosing the one that espouses a belief in the Christian Hell. Gosh, I sure hope yer right, because the consequences are dire if yer not.
I, on the other hand, tend to lean towards a belief that NONE of the religions, if God in fact does exist, have it right, and furthermore, they are attributing things to the universal view that are just not in existence, i.e. Hell.
Dude... Seriously. You need to take a logic class. I can't believe you just said the odds are 50:50. That truly was funny.
Russ
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jay helfert said:
Ok Jay, so what's outside the ONE living organism? And is it sitting on someting?
Island Drive said:Ok Jay, so what's outside the ONE living organism? And is it sitting on someting?
Billions of other similar organisms, in parallel Universes if you will.
And they're all sitting on the rail of your pool table. So, GET 'EM OFF!
jay helfert said:
I
think I'm gonna go nowRuss...<<WOW, do you warp the math!! By your math, there is a 50/50 chance ANYTHING, or ANY GOD does/does not exist in this world.>>
Chill bra. I was respectful of your remarks but you seem to feel the need to escalate it into a bitter controversy...so I'll take a pass on any further debate about religion and just comment on the math issued you raised.
My math is not warped in the slightest. In calculating odds you must determine the number of possible outcomes of a give event and then modify that raw data to account for extrinsic forces that might affect the raw math.
For example, the roll of the dice is PURELY statistical. One and only one of eleven numbers must come up in a legal throw. There are no extrinsic forces.
On the other hand, it is true that the Tigers must either win or lose the World Series...but that does not make betting for or against the Tigers a 50/50 proposition due to all kinds of extrinsic forces that might come into play.
But those who bet successfully will confirm that adjusting the odds up or now from the purely STATISTICALLY possible outcomes takes KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCE. Best you not bet on the Tigers because you were born in Detroit or because you think there is a chance that their ace pitchers will all have headaches.
Pure speculation has no place in handicapping bets.
All I am saying is that we all can have hundreds of THEORIES about God or no God but no one has anything other than purely speculative theories about such things and therefore, the odds MUST be calculated on purely statistical grounds...just like dice throws or coin tosses.
But hey man...believe what you want and I won't even say I don't care what you believe because I do...in the sense that I support your right to believe whatever you want.
Nor harm...no foul.
Regards,
Jim
Chill bra. I was respectful of your remarks but you seem to feel the need to escalate it into a bitter controversy...so I'll take a pass on any further debate about religion and just comment on the math issued you raised.
My math is not warped in the slightest. In calculating odds you must determine the number of possible outcomes of a give event and then modify that raw data to account for extrinsic forces that might affect the raw math.
For example, the roll of the dice is PURELY statistical. One and only one of eleven numbers must come up in a legal throw. There are no extrinsic forces.
On the other hand, it is true that the Tigers must either win or lose the World Series...but that does not make betting for or against the Tigers a 50/50 proposition due to all kinds of extrinsic forces that might come into play.
But those who bet successfully will confirm that adjusting the odds up or now from the purely STATISTICALLY possible outcomes takes KNOWLEDGE, INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCE. Best you not bet on the Tigers because you were born in Detroit or because you think there is a chance that their ace pitchers will all have headaches.
Pure speculation has no place in handicapping bets.
All I am saying is that we all can have hundreds of THEORIES about God or no God but no one has anything other than purely speculative theories about such things and therefore, the odds MUST be calculated on purely statistical grounds...just like dice throws or coin tosses.
But hey man...believe what you want and I won't even say I don't care what you believe because I do...in the sense that I support your right to believe whatever you want.
Nor harm...no foul.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Jim,
Just curious...what do you fly? (I am guessing you do based on your user name)
av84fun said:
Sorry Jim,
I guess I get a little emotional on this topic. I do get angry when fundamentalist Christians use "math" like this to denigrate the choice of others who choose not to believe, or who choose not to care about the question.
In my mind, it is far from a 50:50 question. In actual reality, the odds are 1:0 on one side or the other. Either there is, or is not a Christian God and Christian Hell. Now, when making a choice on "what" to believe, there are more than two choices. Many, many, many, many more than 2 choices. Your "50/50 odds" statement makes it seem like one has only two choices to make.
Every fundamentalist Christian I have ever discussed this with has invariably lost the argument based on logic, and then almost ALL of them have resorted to the "what do you have to lose?" question.
Well, it is an arrogant question. It assumes their religion out of the thousands out there is right. I am not so arrogant to say that I am right. But I have made my decisions based on the fact that there are thousands of religions, all of them say the way to "heaven" is different, and that different things will earn eternal punishment. God can't possibly expect us to pick the exact right religion to follow, even if it is out there somewhere. Being human, we can't possibly know the right one to pick.
I take exception to anyone who passes judgement on a logical approach to building a worldview, that may not include religion. And then goes on to say something like "You should 'believe' just in case."
To anyone who has ever come to a non religious or agnostic worldview through logic, someone telling them in one form or another that they should believe "just in case" is about the most offensive thing they could possibly say.
People think atheists and agnostics somehow believe in God, but choose not to follow him. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have searched, and searched, and searched. All I found was evidence of man's manipulation of man.
One last essay, and I will finish up. Religion has had an interesting "evolution" of it's own. First, in the days of cave men, it is assumed from anthropological studies of current non-advanced small tribes that the general religious structure was that of the tribal chief, with attributed power to either affect nature itself, or to talk to the gods for the tribe.
The tribal chief, or "witch doctor" form of religion is not efficient at retaining followers. If the witch doctor or chief is not successful at curing diseases or growing crops, he is replaced.
From here, religion evolved into a "pantheon" of gods, i.e. multiple gods. We see this in Greek and Roman mythology. This was better at retaining converts. People could pick a god they identified with, i.e. Zeus, Aphrodite, etc. Some cities insisted on tithing to multiple gods, some that you tithe to at least one god. Still not efficient at retaining converts, because a new god could always be made up by someone from another district to take followers away from another god. Would you rather give money to Ares, the god of War, or Dionysius, the god of wine?
This slowly evolved to a singular god over a few centuries, such as YahWeh, God, Allah, etc. This was much better at gaining and holding converts! With fewer choices, and other choices being from lands generally geographically far away. This is where Catholicism comes in.
Catholicism was very good at telling followers that rewards were to be gained in the next life, and tithing in this life would help to save more people. Hell was not such a horrible idea, because only the truly horrible people went straight there. Others had a chance to atone for sins in Purgatory. Hence, for almost anyone who died with sin on their soul, Hell was not a definite.
THEN, we have the final evolution of religion. That would be the modern Christians who believe dying with sin on your soul sends you directly to Hell, don't stop at GO, and no way out.
This is one of the most effective ideas for gaining people to the religion, and KEEPING them there. Eternal reward for following the religion, eternal torture in any other case. The idea of an eternal Hell for the majority of sinners is a fairly new invention. Don't believe me? Do your research.. I have.
It just kind of irks me that I know fundamentalist Christianity MUCH better than most of the actual followers, and they try to convince me I am silly or stupid for believing what I believe, even though they have never looked at any other choice. They believe what they believe because that is what their parents or friends believe. No capacity for critical thinking to at least TRY to see something beyond their beleif system.
Don't get me wrong. My moral/ethics system does derive from the Christian society I was raised in. I don't believe in abortion, but for different reasons. i believe in nothing more than personal responsibility. I believe if you don't want the child, give it up for adoption if there are no medical issues. Simple as that. Religion has nothing to do with it.
In closing, I'm sorry if I offended you. But you might want to look at how you come across to someone who doesn't believe the same as you. Often religious people debate the topic as if they are totally right, and it should be automatically accepted that that is the way the world REALLY is.
A lot of people don't agree with even your simplest "truths", and have done much more study on the topic than you might have.
Russ
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A Bit Off Topic But...
This thread has become about as interesting as watching PBS...
Anyone who thinks evolution is NOT flawed hasn't met my brother-in-law...
I was making love to my wife the other night and I said, "Honey, you've got no tits and a real tight hole." She said, "Max, get off my back!"...
I called in sick to work the other day. My boss asked what was wrong and I said, "I have anal glaucoma." He said, "Anal glaucoma?" And I said, "Yeah, I just don't see my a$$ coming in today."...
Bumper stickers I saw today that made me chuckle:
"Feeling guilty for no reason? You're Catholic."
"Last time somebody listened to a Bush, folks wandered around in the desert for 40 years."...
This thread has become about as interesting as watching PBS...
Anyone who thinks evolution is NOT flawed hasn't met my brother-in-law...
I was making love to my wife the other night and I said, "Honey, you've got no tits and a real tight hole." She said, "Max, get off my back!"...
I called in sick to work the other day. My boss asked what was wrong and I said, "I have anal glaucoma." He said, "Anal glaucoma?" And I said, "Yeah, I just don't see my a$$ coming in today."...
Bumper stickers I saw today that made me chuckle:
"Feeling guilty for no reason? You're Catholic."
"Last time somebody listened to a Bush, folks wandered around in the desert for 40 years."...
Hi Shane...I am a Private Pilot with Single Engine, Multi-engine, Commercial and Instrument ratings. I have owed several machines...the largest of which was a Cessna 340 (twin) but I have checked out in ships as large as a King Air B90. I have about 1200 hours of total time. I don't own an airplane at the moment due to a lack of time to stay current.
Actually, I owned a 1/4 share of a Lear 25...for less than a week. We bought it well and flipped it. I never set foot in the beast!! (-:
Regards,
Jim
Actually, I owned a 1/4 share of a Lear 25...for less than a week. We bought it well and flipped it. I never set foot in the beast!! (-:
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
I am also Commercial Multi Engine Instrument Rated and Private Single (trained at Flight Safety in Vero Beach, FL) My goal is to own a nice twin one day and maybe a Pitts (have about 10hrs in a Pitts...now THAT is fun flying!)
Str8PoolMan said:
I had a friend of mine 20 years ago call into work and said to the dispatcher" Tom I can't come into work today cause I'm having optical difficulties".
Tom" What do you mean you're having optical difficulties?"
Friend" I just can't see coming into work"
Tom " You're fired"
Friend " Good, cause I think I was going to have optical difficulties tomorrow too!"
no-sho
Where is every one comming from. Theory, Facts what do you realy think these words mean? What we are looking for is the truth. Lets look at the simple truth or theory of what goes up must come down. Although we believe this to be true we also know that it is not true once we are no longer in the reach of the gravitational pull of the earth. If that object reaches the gravitational pull of another planet is the object still going up or coming down? My point is one persons truth is another persons theory, its all subject to our individual interpetation of what we hear and or read.
av84fun said:
Rats ass, that's one phrase you can take to the bank, like a good friend of mine said, 'I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS' and he was right every time he said said it.
Shane...<<have about 10hrs in a Pitts...now THAT is fun flying!)>
I have only about 6 hours of aerobatic dual...mostly in a decathlon. But, roger that...As for the old aviation saying..."Keep the shiny side up"...I say...WHY????????????
And by the way...a fact that is not as widely known as it should be is that....PILOTS STAY UP LONGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(-:
I have only about 6 hours of aerobatic dual...mostly in a decathlon. But, roger that...As for the old aviation saying..."Keep the shiny side up"...I say...WHY????????????
And by the way...a fact that is not as widely known as it should be is that....PILOTS STAY UP LONGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(-:
Now this has got to be the most interesting thread I've read in a while. It has everything...comedy, drama, science fiction, conspiracy theories, religion, airplanes, and pool!! Who says you can't have everything? Now if only we can get someone to throw in snakes, as well.....