Try This Shot Ten Times

JoeyA said:
.

That's a whole lot of squerve that you are getting with that low squirt cue. I'm not making fun of you or it, just that a whole ball is a lot of squirt.

JoeyA
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I'd like to see the shot in slow motion to verify. My belief is that on the shot you described at the speed needed to move the cue ball 4 rails there is lots of squirt and very little swerve. My 314 shafts are all 3rd generation production from 1996-97. I don't believe that 314-2 or OB-1 shafts have significantly less squirt. I tried out the OB-1 at Valley Forge and it played almost identical to my 314. It did have a better feel and more feedback, which I like. I would own the OB-1 except for the fact that I retip my own cues, without a lathe. I was afraid of using hand tools to trim a tip, fearing that I would nick the wooden ferrule.

best regards..........Paul
 
JoeyA said:
I started looking at the edge of the ball which is where my cue stick was aiming. The results were far better than in the past.
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Joey, at which edge of the object ball are you looking? If you're aiming the shaft at the LEFT edge of the OB, then the squirt is moving the CB to the OB contact point. If you're looking at the RIGHT edge of the OB, then --since that would amount to more than a half ball hit-- the CB is swerving left into the contact point. Either that, or the extreme left spin is throwing the OB to the right, which is compensating for the over-cut.

Either way, the speed is going to influence this shot. Buffalo's tables are fast, due to the A/C being on 24/7. If you tried the shot at, say, Two Sisters, where the tables are extremely slow, you'd have to hit the shot a lot harder to get the CB around the table. That would undoubtedly change the aim point.

I can't get to a table until Saturday. I'll try the shot then, and give you my results.

Doc
 
Flex said:
Joey, I'm really happy for you that you've got this shot down pat. As far as aiming at the edge of the cue ball, be advised that that specific aim point is working well for you with your cue and stroke and all of that stuff. When you switch tables, however, your results may not be the same. Slightly slower or faster cloth will change the amount of swerve on the cue ball, and you'll need to compensate perhaps differently, or maybe keep the same aim line but compensate by changing how much power you put into the shot. Also, different cue balls may require that you further adapt. Just think about a worn out, undersized red circle cue ball versus a new Centennial blue circle...

Flex
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Flex,
I appreciate the thoughts and will keep them in mind and try the shot on other equipment.

I've always told people that pool players from New Orleans can't play squat. NOLA is like a gasoline station for roadies. They can always pump up here because of the lack of good quality players. I just lost another tournament last night. :D


JoeyA
 
JoeyA on the square the check is in the mail if I can get to7/10. where the hell do I need to aim for this shot, i know I sound like a C-- player and on this shot I am, its 100% my all time weakest shot, gimme me some lessions and i'll fire out a check to who ever you like if I can make it work, i might be able to play 15-20 minutes today my back is 50/50. I'm dead serious the help would be much appericated.

thanks

FB
 
Fatboy said:
JoeyA on the square the check is in the mail if I can get to7/10. where the hell do I need to aim for this shot, i know I sound like a C-- player and on this shot I am, its 100% my all time weakest shot, gimme me some lessions and i'll fire out a check to who ever you like if I can make it work, i might be able to play 15-20 minutes today my back is 50/50. I'm dead serious the help would be much appericated.

thanks

FB
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Save the $50. Hang on to it. I might need a stake horse against Jay. :D

Use 11:00 English but no more than one tip of left side and one tip of high. (You may have to use 1/2 of a tip of side spin instead of a whole tip depending on your cue's squirt factor) Aim the center of the cue tip at the LEFT edge of the object ball. Shoot it a few times making sure to hold your eyes on the LEFT edge of the object ball and as you stroke, follow through toward the left edge of the object ball. Any eye movement (or body movement except for forearm) toward the actual contact point will probably make the shot end up in failure. If you're over-cutting the ball, aim the right edge of the cue tip at the left edge of the object ball. If you're consistently hitting the object ball too fat, aim the left edge of the cue tip at the left edge of the object ball.

Slow backswing, smooth, very smooth, STRAIGHT, follow through on the last stroke.

Good luck. Let me know if it helps. If I was there, I could jell you up on this shot fairly quickly as long as your stroke is straight. The slow back swing and even a small pause, combined with a smooth, straight accelerating final forward stroke gets the job done.

Believe me, I had LOTS of trouble with this shot until I finally started to get it. You can do this shot and can so can anyone else. It's all about facing your fears and be willing to hang in there until you get it right.

I'm a hard head, a natural jar head and I refuse to let any shot get the best of me and I will practice it until I finally get it. Because I am a hard head, it sometimes takes me a bit longer to get it. :D

I think anyone who has a decent stroke can make this shot 7 out of ten times. It may take some practice. ONe thing that seemed to help me was finally when I started to get it, I quit placing the cue tip so finitely on the cue ball at the start of the shot and simply concentrated on stroking the cue stick straight and aiming the center of the cue tip at the edge of the object ball. My pre-shot routine was altered for this shot and it worked for me. I normally LOCK ON the contact point at the beginning of my pre-shot routine when I get down on the ball without any cue movement. You may have to experiment until you find what clicks for you. Moving the cue stick under one eye or the other could change your alignment and help you with consistent potting also.

Another tip: Only change ONE THING every few shots because changing multiple things at one time will only get you to wonder what the real epiphany was.

If that doesn't do it, we'll work on it at the DCC or some other tournament down the road.

Good luck.
JoeyA
 
Warmed up about 30 shots, no attempts at the intended shot. Used doughnuts. Tried the shot shown in the first drawing with the ob 1 1/2 balls off the rail with the cb on the headstring 1/2 way between the spot and the next diamond over.
Made it 7 out of 10 with perfect postion. 1 miss totally off. 2 misses undercut slightly with cb position perfect. Used BHE.
9' Brunswick, 860 worn, Schuler w/ 314~2 / Moori shaped to a nickel, aramith bar cb with the green mark on it. Used that cb because thats whats used in alot of the bar tourneys I play in. I'll probabley try it later on a bar box and maybe with the measles or red circle cb's.
Its a tough shot that makes you stroke straight.
 
I was up at the pool hall early last night before league and I was trying this shot, it's definitely a lot harder then I first thought. I scratched the first few times until i adjusted and then I got 2 in the triangle and then the rest fell short of the triangle and ended up more towards the middle :D
 
Fatboy said:
JoeyA on the square the check is in the mail if I can get to7/10. where the hell do I need to aim for this shot, i know I sound like a C-- player and on this shot I am, its 100% my all time weakest shot, gimme me some lessions and i'll fire out a check to who ever you like if I can make it work, i might be able to play 15-20 minutes today my back is 50/50. I'm dead serious the help would be much appericated.

thanks

FB
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(I'm not Joey.)

It depends on your stick. If it's a low-squirt stick like a Predator or OB-1, and if you're putting maximum high left on the CB (1/2" from center at about 10:30 o'clock), then you might need to aim your stick at about the same spot on the OB.

If your stick is high-squirt, you'll need to aim your stick farther to the left, maybe somewhere off the edge of the OB.

These are estimates and very approximate - your actual aim depends on exactly where you hit the CB plus how hard you hit the shot, how level your stick is, how old the cloth is, etc. In other words, use these suggestions as starting points and adjust to actual by trial and error.

You can send the $50 to Joey - Jay might make him post up.

pj
chgo
 
This shot is a cue identifier IMO...Identify if I like it for my game or not that is....

I have 3 different cues. some notes from this shot (for me anyway)

depending on the CB (since I saw two different reference points)

The shot for me is easier to make if the CB is left of the spot....(more in line with a perfect 1/2 ball AIM)

Getting around the table is similar on both shots...The CB on the spot requires some follow...The CB left of the spot really only required inside english...

IF you miss the OB by overcutting it slightly the CB will "easily" make it around three rails...any miss this way...the shape should be thrown out IMO...

What I find is that some cues are much easier to pocket the ball and harder to get the shape around table....other cues are super easy to get around table, but hard to controle the deflection to pocket the ball.

I use BHE to make shots of this type, but from this distance and the stroke being applied to the ball, it is beyound the distance where BHE works without further adjustment (either by lengthening the bridge aka:pivot point, or adjusting by feel)...The lower deflection shaft you have in this case the easier it is to pocket the ball....IMO

I am sure that some will want to jump on and say the cue makes no difference...its that archer not the arrow......but in my case...the cue makes a difference......It may make much less difference in many other shots...but this is one of those shots that identifies to me that it does make a difference....

For reference I play on a rather slow GCII with double shimmed pockets that will accept balls, but if you catch any part of the rail (at speed)...you can pretty much forget about the ball going in...

OF my cues...

I had one that I can pocket the ball almost every time...and get three rails past the side pocket but nowhere near the triangle.

I had another cue that I can get all the way through the triangle and bounce off off the end rail...but I have a very hard time actually pocketing the ball.

I have my playing cue that I can both pocket the ball and get into the triangle and touch the 4th rail...a couple times it got to the 5th but never rebounded.

Now if I over cut the OB just a hair...I could go all 5 rails.....but that does not count...

Granted...for the money...I am probably going to play the draw shot.....but if the draw lane is blocked...this is a good shot to have in the bag...;)
 
Forgot to mention that I used my Starkey cue when I shot last night.

If I had a Deno special, Im sure that I could have made it 2-3 times more!!!

:D

Russ.....
 
BRKNRUN said:
This shot is a cue identifier IMO...Identify if I like it for my game or not that is....

I have 3 different cues. some notes from this shot (for me anyway)

depending on the CB (since I saw two different reference points)

The shot for me is easier to make if the CB is left of the spot....(more in line with a perfect 1/2 ball AIM)

Getting around the table is similar on both shots...The CB on the spot requires some follow...The CB left of the spot really only required inside english...

IF you miss the OB by overcutting it slightly the CB will "easily" make it around three rails...any miss this way...the shape should be thrown out IMO...

What I find is that some cues are much easier to pocket the ball and harder to get the shape around table....other cues are super easy to get around table, but hard to controle the deflection to pocket the ball.

I use BHE to make shots of this type, but from this distance and the stroke being applied to the ball, it is beyound the distance where BHE works without further adjustment (either by lengthening the bridge aka:pivot point, or adjusting by feel)...The lower deflection shaft you have in this case the easier it is to pocket the ball....IMO

I am sure that some will want to jump on and say the cue makes no difference...its that archer not the arrow......but in my case...the cue makes a difference......It may make much less difference in many other shots...but this is one of those shots that identifies to me that it does make a difference....

For reference I play on a rather slow GCII with double shimmed pockets that will accept balls, but if you catch any part of the rail (at speed)...you can pretty much forget about the ball going in...

OF my cues...

I had one that I can pocket the ball almost every time...and get three rails past the side pocket but nowhere near the triangle.

I had another cue that I can get all the way through the triangle and bounce off off the end rail...but I have a very hard time actually pocketing the ball.

I have my playing cue that I can both pocket the ball and get into the triangle and touch the 4th rail...a couple times it got to the 5th but never rebounded.

Now if I over cut the OB just a hair...I could go all 5 rails.....but that does not count...

Granted...for the money...I am probably going to play the draw shot.....but if the draw lane is blocked...this is a good shot to have in the bag...;)
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Ken, you do you readily have shaft specifications on your three shafts that you used for this shot in order as above? If not, no biggee. I am curious about the shaft tapers, shaft size and type of shaft that you have on all three cues including their weight.
Thanks,
Joey
 
a cue identifier?? I'm sure anyone good whos been playing with the same shaft / cue for awhile can drain this shot quite often. I use this shot to help me adjust to new cues. All you have to know is how much to compensate for.

Theres a lot of inside english shots that will help you lock in with your cue really quickly.

I would never get rid of a new cue that felt great and hit great just because I hadnt adjusted to it yet.
 
JoeyA said:
Ken, you do you readily have shaft specifications on your three shafts that you used for this shot in order as above? If not, no biggee. I am curious about the shaft tapers, shaft size and type of shaft that you have on all three cues including their weight.
Thanks,
Joey
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I can tell you in general terms that each shaft (except for my Jacoby shaft) has what is considered along the lines similar to a pro taper (I guess)...Meaning that the if the tip diamiter is 12.75...if you measure up the first 6-8 inches you would still get a 12.75 reading......I could not tell you the exact "stretch" of each shaft, but I would assume they are similar in the 8-12" range.....The Jacoby had a "conical" taper...meaning as soon as you got off the tip...it was already getting thicker...

1st - Mcdermot 19.3 with a mis-matched shaft of unknown origin...I loaned this cue out to a friend and got it back with a different shaft that does not match up size wise at the joint...(that is how I knew it was different)...The shaft is super skinny...(has been customized by someone)..probably in the 12.1 range...The issue I have with this cue is not really the shaft, but more the size of the butt of the cue...I have short fingered square hands and the cue feels like a log in my hand.

2nd - Phoenix Custom Cue (sneaky pete) 18oz...cues are no longer made..stock PCC taper (whatever that is) about 12.75 range...This cue is great in the CB spin area...However...I don't like using it on anthing but a bar box...because seemingly as the shot gets longer...it get harder to pocket the ball with this cue....great cue for bar box banger tournaments that you can just walk into the bar with just a cue and no case....

3rd - I call it my JMT cue 19.2oz...It is a Jacoby Butt / BCM (Bryan Mordt) Shaft / and a Dale Teague modification to the handle section...(When I got the cue the handle came out just a bit bigger than I like to fit my hand...I gave it to Dale Teage and he did some modifications to the handle section..(although you would never know it to look at it)...that made the handle section thinner and completly changed the way it plays and feels in my grip hand...I use a stock BCM taper shaft 12.75...It plays totally different than the stock Jacoby shaft since they use a different taper...BTW...If I switch the the Jaboby shaft the weight of the cue is 19.0oz

For what its worth...there it is...
 
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BRKNRUN said:
What I find is that some cues are much easier to pocket the ball and harder to get the shape around table....other cues are super easy to get around table, but hard to controle the deflection to pocket the ball.

OF my cues...

I had one that I can pocket the ball almost every time...and get three rails past the side pocket but nowhere near the triangle.
Click to expand...

Just for fun...

I'm guessing this one is high squirt. My theory is that you've learned that your aim is off when you use lots of spin, so you unconsciously hit closer to center to compensate.

I had another cue that I can get all the way through the triangle and bounce off off the end rail...but I have a very hard time actually pocketing the ball.
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I'm guessing this one is a high squirt cue that you're less familiar with. My theory here is that you haven't learned how to compensate for the high squirt but you also haven't yet learned to be afraid to spin the ball.

I have my playing cue that I can both pocket the ball and get into the triangle and touch the 4th rail...a couple times it got to the 5th but never rebounded.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing your playing cue is low squirt (process of elimination based on my reasoning above).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Just for fun...

I'm guessing this one is high squirt. My theory is that you've learned that your aim is off when you use lots of spin, so you unconsciously hit closer to center to compensate.



I'm guessing this one is a high squirt cue that you're less familiar with. My theory here is that you haven't learned how to compensate for the high squirt but you also haven't yet learned to be afraid to spin the ball.



I'm guessing your playing cue is low squirt (process of elimination based on my reasoning above).

pj
chgo
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You are fairly close...except for the familiarty part since I have had these cues for some time...(The first since 1993).

I think my second post may have helped clear up some of the reason.

The 1st cue is too thick in the Butt section for my hand......I can't get a "true" reading on this shaft...unless I was able to screw it on another butt.....I don't like big butts...on this I can not lie....but...baby's got rack...

The 2nd cue is VERY high squirt...I use this cue on bar boxes all the time...but try to avoide anything other than center ball...(meaning center axis)...so yes and no on this one...I have never been able to get "consistently" comfortable with the high squirt...but I have learned to stay away from it when using that cue...;)

The third cue has a BCM shaft that is probably considered a "medium to low medium" squirt..(just my guess anyway)....I can verify that the shaft maker Bryan Mordt...(a very very good player before he made cues) has stated the quote..."some deflection is a good thing"......Thus he would probably design his "stock" taper to his style of play.
 
I gave bad info in my earlier post. OB is a little far away for the 7:30 move. If it were closer, it'd zip it around no prob. I was hitting 11:00 and getting around really consistently with BHE. I pretty much use BHE for every shot regardless, but I was curious to see the difference in "action" between pivoting and not.

From just playing around, I found using BHE made the ball and zipped the CB around far more efficiently. Does anyone think they do this shot better without pivoting? Just curious to hear opinions.

I know I'll get flamed off my keyboard for saying this, but I really don't think the shaft makes any difference at all. Low deflection or not. I think if you really believe that certain shafts will help you make this shot - you're not concentrating enough on the technique that gets you there.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I gave bad info in my earlier post. OB is a little far away for the 7:30 move. If it were closer, it'd zip it around no prob. I was hitting 11:00 and getting around really consistently with BHE. I pretty much use BHE for every shot regardless, but I was curious to see the difference in "action" between pivoting and not.

From just playing around, I found using BHE made the ball and zipped the CB around far more efficiently. Does anyone think they do this shot better without pivoting? Just curious to hear opinions.

I know I'll get flamed off my keyboard for saying this, but I really don't think the shaft makes any difference at all. Low deflection or not. I think if you really believe that certain shafts will help you make this shot - you're not concentrating enough on the technique that gets you there.
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Not a flame at all. Some world championship pool has been played with all kinds of pool cues and shafts.

But I do disagree with you above statement. Your statement dismisses any benefits of L/D shafts and that is just as wrong as a suggestion that everyone must benefit from using them.

An L/D shaft reduces but does not eliminate a variable created when striking a CB off center. Reducing such variables is a fundamental advantage.

I am sure you would not go to a cue maker and say "Hey, my cue doesn't deflect the CB enough. Please make me one with more deflection."

I don't know what your speed is but will assume that you have reached a level of superiority without resorting to a L/D shaft...and I compliment you for that.

Others, with equal skill as you have achieved, prefer to obtain a reduction of the deflection variable and turn their attention to other factors.


There is no right or wrong and there is certainly no failure to concentrate on the technique required to master a traditional shaft...but rather a choice to avoid having to achieve that mastery.

To use an intended pun...it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

Regards,
Jim
 
Finally got a chance to play around with the shot last night. Results were not great but OK.

Table, 8' Ohlhausen, Shimmed pockets to 4.375, angled like a diamond pro, if you touch any part of the rail, the ball never goes. It you are just a bit too wide (overcut) the ball rattles too. Simonis 860, 1 year old.

Shooting to the right pocket, I made 7 of 10. When I miss I always over cut.

When I put the shot on the other side, I missed half. 5 of 10. Found that odd but I was overcutting there too. The shot is tough but I actually work on this one quite often. Had it come up a few weeks ago in a match and made the ball but came about 1 foot short. Hooked to lose the game, I get there and I am out. Not the easiest shot to go for with the match on the line but it has to come second nature. (It does not for me, not yet)

I shoot the shot with about 1 tip off center at 10:30 or 11:00, Back hand english is mostly what I use. I still initially aim to undercut the ball a bit, that with the BHE seems to give me the perfect compensation for deflection with this type of speed shot.

Peace, JBK
 
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