Try This Shot Ten Times
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Samiel said:
Samiel, one of our better players uses a very narrow Z shaft by Predator and he was able to make the shot and get shape with a medium speed stroke with top spin ONLY. He did this on a regular basis, I might add.
You can try not shooting quite as hard. I noticed that if I took a little speed off of the shot, I potted the object ball far more frequently.
JoeyA
I DID NOT write the following. I did save it to a word document more than a few years ago. I believe I got it at Bob Jewett's website or the RSB FAQ.
Here's a quick test to see if the cue is worth looking at further. It
tests the amount of "squirt" or deflection on extreme english shots.
Many expensive sticks fail this test. This idea can also be used to
compensate for squirt for some sticks, and when it is used for that
it is sometimes called "backhand english" since the back (grip) hand
is moved over to get side spin. (The definition of squirt is in
the glossary (Answer #1) above.)
The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:
For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.
For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.
If several cues are available, including house cues, compare them.
Squirt is the most important characteristic of a cue stick after solid
construction. Less squirt is usually better, especially if you use
something close to "parallel aiming" on spin shots. More squirt means
more aiming compensation on any shot with side spin. The one possible
advantage of squirt is that if the pivot length is the same length as
the bridge, it can compensate for inaccuracies left-to-right in the final
stroke.
Here's a quick test to see if the cue is worth looking at further. It
tests the amount of "squirt" or deflection on extreme english shots.
Many expensive sticks fail this test. This idea can also be used to
compensate for squirt for some sticks, and when it is used for that
it is sometimes called "backhand english" since the back (grip) hand
is moved over to get side spin. (The definition of squirt is in
the glossary (Answer #1) above.)
The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:
For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.
For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.
If several cues are available, including house cues, compare them.
Squirt is the most important characteristic of a cue stick after solid
construction. Less squirt is usually better, especially if you use
something close to "parallel aiming" on spin shots. More squirt means
more aiming compensation on any shot with side spin. The one possible
advantage of squirt is that if the pivot length is the same length as
the bridge, it can compensate for inaccuracies left-to-right in the final
stroke.
To avoid confusion, let's talk about three different ways of applying sidespin:
1. "Static" BHE - you first aim the shot without sidespin, then move your back hand sideways to apply sidespin, which also puts the right amount of angle on your hit to compensate for squirt, then take your practice strokes and shot stroke in a straight line along this new angle.
2. "Dynamic" BHE - you first aim the shot without sidespin, then take your practice strokes along this no-sidespin aim line, but move your back hand sideways during the shot stroke to put sidespin on the CB and put the right amount of angle on your hit to compensate for squirt.
3. "Traditional" english - you angle your stick as above to apply sidespin and compensate for squirt, but you don't move your backhand to do it; either you simply get into that position to begin with or you switch from centerball aim by feel (not paying attention to which hand you move), or you use some other way.
If you hit the same spot on the CB each time, these three techniques accomplish exactly the same thing: put the same amount of sidespin on the CB and hit the CB at exactly the same angle to compensate for squirt. The fact that you move your backhand one way and not the other, or that the stick is stroked in a straight line one way and in a swooping motion the other, makes no difference to the ultimate outcome - at the moment the tip strikes the CB on that predetermined spot, the tip is at the same angle and travelling in the same direction. If it didn't hit the same spot you'd be putting the wrong amount of english on, and if it didn't hit at the same angle you'd miss the shot (because you over- or under-compensated for squirt).
The way you come into the CB is exactly the same. It's how you accomplish it that's different. "Swiping" the tip across the CB using "dynamic BHE" doesn't change this - when the tip hits the CB, it's just as if it's coming at the CB along the same straight line at the same angle to compensate for squirt.
BHE is not a way to apply different sidespin and squirt compensation; it's a different way to apply the same sidespin and squirt compensation.
pj
chgo
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I was able to make it and get on the ball with top english 6 times out of ten.
This was on a 9' diamond smart table with new cloth and procut pockets.
This was on a 9' diamond smart table with new cloth and procut pockets.
Patrick Johnson said:
The spot where you hit the CB is the same but the angle of your cue is different and the directional force applied to the CB is different, right?
Traditional english-- the tip of your cue is parallel to the aim line, correct? Tip follows through the same point on the opposite side, assuming the CB was a hologram and the cue was perfectly level (I'm only saying this to help me describe)
BHE - the tip is pointing off into nowhere (striking across the face, not through the face of the CB) and the tip does not follow-through to the opposite side.
I'm only saying this because I'm confused since the cue doesn't take the same path through the CB, how can the spin be identical? I don't believe that hitting the same spot on the CB always equates to the same spin if the force applied to that spot comes from different directions.
There's gotta be a proof in there somewhere. You're good at that PJ. Hook up a proof. I honestly wanna know this. Logic is telling me the three can't possibly be congruent. Where's Jewett?
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SpiderWebComm said:
Nope. Everything's the same.
Nope. You'd miss the shot if it was.
If you're hitting the CB on the same spot, then your tip must be pointing in the same direction as with "traditional" english, or you'll miss the shot.
You're right; it doesn't. But the force doesn't come from different directions.
I know what you mean about logic - it seems like you should be right. I'll see what I can do about a "proof" or an illustration, but it'll have to wait until after work.
pj
chgo
pj-
here's my breakdown... traditional english vs backhand english....the cue is not pointing in the same direction.
Are you saying it is? If so, post a picture of what you're doing... I wanna see--- because with me, it's not. I'm guessing many people who use BHE would say the same thing.
EDIT:
Don't tell me EVERYONE is working right now. I've been staring at this thread all day looking for answers. Am I nuts? FHE vs BHE... the cue line is the same??????? Anyone? Anyone?
Forget about the proof- just do an illustration.
here's my breakdown... traditional english vs backhand english....the cue is not pointing in the same direction.
Are you saying it is? If so, post a picture of what you're doing... I wanna see--- because with me, it's not. I'm guessing many people who use BHE would say the same thing.
EDIT:
Don't tell me EVERYONE is working right now. I've been staring at this thread all day looking for answers. Am I nuts? FHE vs BHE... the cue line is the same??????? Anyone? Anyone?
Forget about the proof- just do an illustration.
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Huh??? I didn't think you were "directing" any thing at me...except what you specifically directed to me. And I didn't "misread" anything you said...let alone everything you said.
I was GIVING you my opinions and I don't know what you mean by "retorts" or "tit for tat". I was merely responding...quite politely...to certain of your comments...which included
SpiderWebComm said:
I was GIVING you my opinions and I don't know what you mean by "retorts" or "tit for tat". I was merely responding...quite politely...to certain of your comments...which included
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm not sure if this was a typo by Patrick or that we're just not understanding what he wrote but what I consider TRADITIONAL ENGLISH is when you line up the shot putting SIDE SPIN on the cue ball, PARALLEL TO THE AIMING LINE, adjusting in advance for the squerve that will take place on the shot.
JoeyA
SpiderWebComm said:
Yes, when the tip contacts the CB it is.
I'll post something tonight.
pj
chgo
JoeyA said:
We're probably having a semantic moment. I'll try to be more clear with a drawing later tonight.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
The #3 reference is the breakdown....I refer #3 as how a person using a predator (very low deflection) type shaft would apply BHE...
NOTE: Below is based on a dead straight shot. If you were to line up with no english of any kind you would align your cue stright along a line through the center axis of the CB through the Center axis of the object ball.
referenceing your applications of english above.
#1 When BHE is aplliead here the grip hand and bridge hand will be on opposite sides of the center axis origonal aim line
#2 When dynamic BHE is applied on the final stroke you will have the same results as #1 the grip and bridge hands will be on the opposite side of the aim line
#3 I am not familiar with this being called "traditonal" english, but it may very welll be...It was not how I was taught my origonal understanding of englsih...This is actually a method of apply BHE for people that have a predator type (super low deflection) shaft. The cue is set on the origonal line as noted in #1 & #2 but you do not "pivot" the cue about the bridge hand...instead the bride hand is moved to the right of left to apply the BHE...the result of this will be that the grip hand will still be on the origonal aim line, and the bridge hand will be to the right or left.
#4 PE (as I understand it anyway) is what I was taught as "traditional" english...When applying PE "Both" the grip hand & the bridge hand are an equal distance to the right or left of the origonal aim line...(basically making a parallell line to the origoinal line) This is where the term PE comes from.
Base on your #1 #2 #3 listing of english application...I would agree that they all will probalably create the same english...At least not any difference that would be readily noticable.
However...The comparison of BHE to PE is the argument (and possibly the confusion) of why BHE player feel like they are getting more sping when applying english...
The probable fact is that BHE and PE is NOT stiking the CB in the comparable same place in relation to the center axis of the CB...
Even though they both strike the apparant visible same place on the CB since the BHE method brings the cue in at an angle on the CB it would change the relation of the center axis of the CB...The reality (I think) is that BHE is actually the equivilent of striking slightly further out from the center axis of the CB creating more spin...
For arguements sake you are correct in saying that neither put more spin on the ball if they are struck in the exact same spot...But it seems to me that BHE is not striking the CB in the same spot as PE...when compared to the center axis based on the cue angles.
I strongly urge parties interested in the BHE technique to review this excellent article on that subject written by Bob Jewett.
http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm
I'll just note here that while I am sure some players use BHE to great advantage, one of the reasons I don't is that I am in favor of the body position being lined up in harmony with the direction of the cue from the start...i.e. I don't care for the technique of altering the line of the cue after I'm already over the shot.
I prefer to estimate, in advance, the degree of squirt I expect to get and adjust my original body position aim to take that into account.
As for english, the fact is that squirt is the inevitable result of striking the cb off its vertical center and that compensation must be made to counteract it (not prevent it, but counteract it).
BHE appears to be one way to compensate for squirt and aim adjustment is another. But either way...an adjustment is necessary so which one is chosen seems to me to be entirely a matter of personal preference and that neither method can be proven to be superior to the other.
As for the issue of whether greater spin can be imposed by using BHE than by traditional english, I haven't seen any research on that matter so I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
I will say that the over-use of spin is, IMHO, one of the most common flaws in the game of pool and that MORE than enough can be imposed by a traditional stroke so I see no value at all in BHE purely from the point of view of the inducement of spin.
Regards,
Jim
http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm
I'll just note here that while I am sure some players use BHE to great advantage, one of the reasons I don't is that I am in favor of the body position being lined up in harmony with the direction of the cue from the start...i.e. I don't care for the technique of altering the line of the cue after I'm already over the shot.
I prefer to estimate, in advance, the degree of squirt I expect to get and adjust my original body position aim to take that into account.
As for english, the fact is that squirt is the inevitable result of striking the cb off its vertical center and that compensation must be made to counteract it (not prevent it, but counteract it).
BHE appears to be one way to compensate for squirt and aim adjustment is another. But either way...an adjustment is necessary so which one is chosen seems to me to be entirely a matter of personal preference and that neither method can be proven to be superior to the other.
As for the issue of whether greater spin can be imposed by using BHE than by traditional english, I haven't seen any research on that matter so I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
I will say that the over-use of spin is, IMHO, one of the most common flaws in the game of pool and that MORE than enough can be imposed by a traditional stroke so I see no value at all in BHE purely from the point of view of the inducement of spin.
Regards,
Jim
mr8ball
Active member
JoeyA said:The object is to make the eight ball by the long rail and go three rails with the cue ball to get shape on the nine ball.
You have to pocket the eight ball and get shape going three rails within the yellow triangle on the cuetable diagram below.
Out of ten tries, how many did you make?
What type of table and what size pockets did you try it on?
I can make this shot if I draw the cue ball with reasonable regularity but going three rails with the cue ball has not been very pleasant even with my newfound knowledge of the difference between high left and low left English.
Try it a few time to get warmed up and then start keeping score.
I would like to know the type of table that you attempted this shot on if you don't mind.
Thanks,
JoeyA
I tried this and did it 9 out of 10 times. I have a Valley BB with 1 shim in all pockets. I have a Schon with an OB-1 shaft. I used 1&1/2 tip of running english. The first time I didnt make it all the way into the yellow but after that I just added a little more speed and got there. I guess its pretty easy on the BB. Not sure how i would do on a 9 ft though. It is a good shot to stay away from the scratch and you are guaranteed shape. Thanks this is good to know. I normally would have drew it and screw up. Thanks again, Doug
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BRKNRUN said:
The bridge hand doesn't move using any kind of BHE (that's why they call it backhand english). It starts on the original aim line and stays there. Maybe you mean the grip hand and the tip end up on opposite sides?
I don't use the term "traditional english" either. I was using SpiderWeb's term in my response to him, but I used it to mean any method other than BHE, not one method in particular.
What you're describing, where only the front hand moves, is fronthand english (it works on very low squirt cues). Backhand english is when only the backhand moves (it works on very high squirt cues).
I don't think the term "parallel english" makes any sense, and your definition above is why. You can't do what you describe above and make the shot, because if you apply sidespin without angling the cue away from the original line you haven't compensated for squirt. When using sidespin you don't want the stick to be parallel with anything.
pj
chgo
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Patrick Johnson said:
You are correct...I mis typed what I meant to say...for #1 & #2 the grip hand and (tip of the cue) are on opposite sides...the bridge hand remains on the center aim line.....my apologies......that is what I get for not proof reading my posts better.
Regarding the PE...I was taught that the cue is place along a parallel line to the center aim line both butt end an tip end....and you do indeed need to compensate for the deflection (aka: squirt)
I can't see how a cue that has the butt section over the center aim line and the tip anled to the right or left of that line would be considered parallell.....(Never Mind..I just re-read and see that you call this front hand english which makes total sense)
What is your defenition of PE?...
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JoeyA,
I havent reported back because I played Glen(table guy) yesterday for 2-3 hours and today I havent been out of bed other than to get a bottle of water a couple times. I have no chance to play, infact I cant talk the vibration hurts my back. I will report back sir!!!
thanks
fatboy
I havent reported back because I played Glen(table guy) yesterday for 2-3 hours and today I havent been out of bed other than to get a bottle of water a couple times. I have no chance to play, infact I cant talk the vibration hurts my back. I will report back sir!!!
thanks
fatboy
I agree it's adjusting in advance, and I think it's also doing it without a system. I don't get the "parallel" part - the whole point of squirt correction is to angle the stick non-parallel with the shot.
pj
chgo
(Too lazy to do a drawing.)