TS Pay Out?

[cardiac kid]

Geoff,

Point one: Explain the difference between creativity and lying? added money is added or isn't it? Only when the room owner says it is? Room owners add that little addendum specificly to protect their ass not the players. Who are we protecting on this thread?

Point two: Thats what I said or didn't you read my entire statement. If a seasoned professional can't understand the information on a flyer, how can Joe or Joanne regular player do it?

Point three: Creative advertising?

Point four: I've never met a promoter who is doing an event because he loves the game and wants to provide a place to play. The doctors who supported the World 14.1 last year come close. Unfortunately they were not the true promoter. Dragon Promotions was. Give me the name of one, just one promoter who is in it strictly for the players, not their own financial benefit? It's a business like any other except the game of pool is the product being sold (hopefully) for a profit.

Regardless of our difference in opinion, I am planning to play in your event in Pittsburgh next week. A short five hours from my home by car. I'm going because it's something for me to do in retirement. Not for any other reason.

Lyn

 

[DrMikeUSN]

Cardiac Kid,

Good I will be glad to see you at the even next weekend!

You are right, this is a business. We need to make money. Ineed to make a lot of it! I am going from NY to FL to CA back to NY. So to cover the expenses we need to make money.

I am honest, and when you pay $100.00 to get in or $65.00 that stays in the prize pool and when I say $2,000 added, it is truely $2,000 added.

Geoff,

Point one: Explain the difference between creativity and lying? added money is added or isn't it? Only when the room owner says it is? Room owners add that little addendum specificly to protect their ass not the players. Who are we protecting on this thread?

Point two: Thats what I said or didn't you read my entire statement. If a seasoned professional can't understand the information on a flyer, how can Joe or Joanne regular player do it?

Point three: Creative advertising?

Point four: I've never met a promoter who is doing an event because he loves the game and wants to provide a place to play. The doctors who supported the World 14.1 last year come close. Unfortunately they were not the true promoter. Dragon Promotions was. Give me the name of one, just one promoter who is in it strictly for the players, not their own financial benefit? It's a business like any other except the game of pool is the product being sold (hopefully) for a profit.

Regardless of our difference in opinion, I am planning to play in your event in Pittsburgh next week. A short five hours from my home by car. I'm going because it's something for me to do in retirement. Not for any other reason.

Lyn

 

[corvette1340]

I think a person (an active member of AZ) should be able to ask a question without being accused of "casting a dark shadow' over an event.

I have stated I hold MZ in the highest regard. I also was responding to the obvious quesiton after the payouts were posted.

It is a simple question. People ask me questions all the time and I always try to answer.

This should NOT become a personal attack - but it is leaning that way.

This has NOTHING to do with any expenses of the event. It has NOTHING to do with how many years the event has been running or how everyone loves the promoter.

The only thing asked is: What was the added amount?

(To Barry C) I had mentioned the UPA did the same thing in May and it went somewhat unnoticed. Is this becoming the 'new standard' for tournaments?

I did not want this to become the debate is has turned into. I only noticed that the payouts posted did NOT add up and thought someone could or would answer my question. Several posters who are very familiar with the event basically accuse me of 'trying to slander' someone.

That was the furthest thing from my mind.

It is a shame it has to go down this road. Our office puts on a lot of events. Our posters try to say everything in plain english. We still get a lot of calls and AZ questions and we try to answer everyone of them. Is that too much to ask?

Mark Griffin

good post. A++

 

[JAM]

Geoff,

Point one: Explain the difference between creativity and lying? added money is added or isn't it? Only when the room owner says it is? Room owners add that little addendum specificly to protect their ass not the players. Who are we protecting on this thread?

Point two: Thats what I said or didn't you read my entire statement. If a seasoned professional can't understand the information on a flyer, how can Joe or Joanne regular player do it?

Point three: Creative advertising?

Point four: I've never met a promoter who is doing an event because he loves the game and wants to provide a place to play. The doctors who supported the World 14.1 last year come close. Unfortunately they were not the true promoter. Dragon Promotions was. Give me the name of one, just one promoter who is in it strictly for the players, not their own financial benefit? It's a business like any other except the game of pool is the product being sold (hopefully) for a profit.

Regardless of our difference in opinion, I am planning to play in your event in Pittsburgh next week. A short five hours from my home by car. I'm going because it's something for me to do in retirement. Not for any other reason.

Lyn

A++. Good post!

 

[corvette1340]

Do you remember the tournament last year, where Johnny Archer & Co got stiffed for $ 25,000 because a promotor wrote bad checks? If I am not mistaken, Mark bailed him out because he felt sorry for the players.

The majority of the forum here said then that the promotor was a crook and a thief, but you supported him, said that it was not his intentions etc and that he would make it good, even though the fact was that he wrote bad checks to the top finishers in the event + the TD.

Now you are supporting a promotor that is not advertising correctly, and you have no problem supporting people who says that Mark is casting shadows over this event.

What Mark is doing is to support and help the players. He wants the advertised money to be paid in full, nothing more.

You seem to support the crooks and thieves who stiff players, and those who advertise with more added money than they pays out.

Who's side are you really on? The players?

Excellent post. It's as if you actually read the threads and comprehend what's taking place. Almost like magic. Are you magic Roy?

 

[JAM]

Can we just all agree that added money is supposed to go completely to the prize fund?

I understand the intent of this thread (or at least what is has turned into) was to try to get promoters on the same page so they don't advertise things that aren't totally true. I agree that it is wrong that it would be advertised as $25K added when some of that money is going to expenses although it wasn't stated anywhere that all entry fees are paid back so I guess it's not totally false.

Tour promoters have the right to make a living without revealing how much money they are pulling out for themselves in my opinion. Some are more honest than others and I hope we are all in agreement that Mike Zuglan is one of the best and most honest promoters out there.

Excellent post. It's as if you actually read the threads and comprehend what's taking place. Almost like magic.

Thanks for stating the truth. :smile:

 

[Race2-9]

TS Payout

I have read this posting with a mixed result. I believe that if Mark had a question/suggestion on how to advertise added monies then he should have called Mike and spoke to him. The inuendo; and yes that's what I see; is that there is something shady going on. More and more I hear people state that they wouldn't get involved with tournament direction or assistance simply because of the negativity that arises so often. I don't know why the post started; I don't for one minute believe it was for the alturistism of the players and tournament direction in general. To the individuals that jump on the band wagon of any negativity in pool I truly wish you woud step back think about what you are saying and then keep your thoughts to yourself. Since I don't know how many players paid $150 and how many paid $200 I fail to see how any of you are coming up with true figures in the first place. Last, anyone who has been involved with what it takes to run a tour or hold a tournament knows the headaches involved.....if you have a question ask the director but this constant running to the internet to "ask questions or B&^%^ really needs to stop, it doesn't help pool at all. I keep remembering a statement from schooll that said if you like something you'll tell 3 people if you don't you'll tell 9 if you want to cause confusion just make a statement something to the effect of....I wonder why......BTW if I were Mike I'd skip answering anything here, it's not worth it because someone is going to complain no matter what

 

[corvette1340]

I have read this posting with a mixed result. I believe that if Mark had a question/suggestion on how to advertise added monies then he should have called Mike and spoke to him. The inuendo; and yes that's what I see; is that there is something shady going on. More and more I hear people state that they wouldn't get involved with tournament direction or assistance simply because of the negativity that arises so often. I don't know why the post started; I don't for one minute believe it was for the alturistism of the players and tournament direction in general. To the individuals that jump on the band wagon of any negativity in pool I truly wish you woud step back think about what you are saying and then keep your thoughts to yourself. Since I don't know how many players paid $150 and how many paid $200 I fail to see how any of you are coming up with true figures in the first place. Last, anyone who has been involved with what it takes to run a tour or hold a tournament knows the headaches involved.....if you have a question ask the director but this constant running to the internet to "ask questions or B&^%^ really needs to stop, it doesn't help pool at all. I keep remembering a statement from schooll that said if you like something you'll tell 3 people if you don't you'll tell 9 if you want to cause confusion just make a statement something to the effect of....I wonder why......BTW if I were Mike I'd skip answering anything here, it's not worth it because someone is going to complain no matter what

the $2800 discrepancey was based on everyone paying $150. So if anyone payed $200 then the number would be even bigger.

 

[JAM]

...BTW if I were Mike I'd skip answering anything here, it's not worth it because someone is going to complain no matter what

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts on this thread.

FWIW, Zuglan may not post on this forum because, as you so rightly have suggested, it ain't worth it to get involved in the negative back-and-forths that can occur from time to time in forum culture.

Some people do get banned multiple times on forums and come back under other identities. It seems they enjoy taking part in hurting feelings and/or causing anger, as opposed to engaging in a colloquy about pool.

Here's a forum member in Post No. 330 of the link who has been banned five times on this forum under different identities, as one example: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=230283&highlight=drunk+time#post230283

Mike Zuglan is a good man, a fair tournament promoter, and is an asset to the sport. :smile:

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

IMHO, this thread will only make the questionable tour promoters hide even deeper behind the numbers game. I've noticed quite a few event promoters headlining their flyers with $2000 or whatever added. Further down the page or in smaller, less noticable lettering is the "based on x number of entries" or whatever number the promoter decides. They know in advance there is no way they will get a full field of players. But it allows them to entice players to come with the "added" money.

During the Valley Forge 10 Ball event, I spoke with one of the few "pro's" in attendence. He is a top young gun. He travelled to VF to play based on the statement "$5000 prize pool guaranteed". Having played in the Super Billiards Expo where first place in the Open was $5000, he assumed it was the same for the 10 ball. First place was actually $1500. He was quite upset. Here's a guy who should have known better. And he makes his living playing pool.

How do the rest of us read and understand payouts? Would re-writing the event flyer change the number of players entered? The field was full in MAY (128 players)! No one has asked for a refund from this event. No one has ever asked for a refund in 13 events because of the payouts. Every event was FULL, every event. The payouts have been the same with the exception of the first event ($50,000 added) and a 96 player event held the same weekend as a UPA Hilton Hotel Tour event (thanks Charlie). As I grew up, one of the statements I heard again and again was "liers figure and figures lie". Promoters obfiscate to add entries. Simple as that. If there's been full disclosure of a tournament payout before the event transpires, I've never seen it! After yes, during yes but not before. Tournaments are held for the benefit of the promoter first and the players second. I think the "build it and they will come" works here.

Lyn

Lyn, I disagree. If anything, discussions like this will encourage promoters to represent things a bit more accurately, because they'll know people are looking at this sort of thing, doing the math, and openly discussing it.

Who, in their right mind, would want to look bad, rather than completely honest and forthright? The problem in the past has been that if anyone did do the math after a tournament, they might go away and grumble a bit, but that was it. It wasn't put up in the light of day for everyone in the pool world to see and talk about, like we can do now.

Just ferinstance, if I were a promoter in this situation, I'd come on here and say something like: Yeah, we were a little loose with the numbers. It's always nice to be able to put up a big round number on the tournament flyers, take what we need to cover expenses, but still make a substantial payout to the players. That's the way we've aways done it, but it does make more sense to be truthful and going forward, that's what we're going to do.

Now who would have a problem with that?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Do you remember the tournament last year, where Johnny Archer & Co got stiffed for $ 25,000 because a promotor wrote bad checks? If I am not mistaken, Mark bailed him out because he felt sorry for the players.

The majority of the forum here said then that the promotor was a crook and a thief, but you supported him, said that it was not his intentions etc and that he would make it good, even though the fact was that he wrote bad checks to the top finishers in the event + the TD.

Now you are supporting a promotor that is not advertising correctly, and you have no problem supporting people who says that Mark is casting shadows over this event.

What Mark is doing is to support and help the players. He wants the advertised money to be paid in full, nothing more.

You seem to support the crooks and thieves who stiff players, and those who advertise with more added money than they pays out.

Who's side are you really on? The players?

OH MY GOD!

Roy, for the love of man, DON'T GO THERE! EEK! Everybody in Norway take cover!

Lou Figueroa
too late

 

[corvette1340]

OH MY GOD!

Roy, for the love of man, DON'T GO THERE! EEK! Everybody in Norway take cover!

Lou Figueroa
too late

lol, is it possible to red rep all of Norway?

 

[JAM]

OH MY GOD!

Roy, for the love of man, DON'T GO THERE! EEK! Everybody in Norway take cover!

Lou Figueroa
too late

....

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I don't appreciate you writing I "seem to support crooks and thieves." Some people have written previously that there are personal attacks on this thread. How's your shoes fitting, Roy?

You ought to look in your own back yard in Norway and stop harboring terrorists, like Mullah Krekar. This statement makes about as much sense as you stating I support crooks and thieves. LOL

If you want to pick scabs, then convey the truth, Roy, not something you've taken out of context. Yes, I did write that I thought the promoter in Arizona probably had good intentions initially when he attempted to sponsor a UPA event in Arizona, and I also wrote that I think he got in over his head. And, yes, I said I do not believe he went into it wanting to rip everybody off. He had a history, previous to this event, of paying up.

Now, as far as the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour goes, there ain't a tour in this country that could be more fair. It is amazing to me to read such garbage on this thread, some written by people who don't even play pool in the States and/or have never been to a Joss event in their life.

There are also some facts written on this thread by people who do know and have been to the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour events. So which ones are you going to believe?

I know things that I should not know about several "promoters" and how they stuff their pockets behind the scenes, unbeknowst to the public, but I won't write it on this forum. BTW, Mike Zuglan is not one of them.

Here's a little Joss Tour smut. The tables for Turning Stone cost $7,500, if my memory is correct. There are 16 of them in total for the event. BTW, the table installers do not pay for their hotel lodging at the Turning Stone the entire time they are there, approximately a week.

The entry fee for Turning Stone is $150 for most, $200 for some. $30 is taken out of the entry fees to cover the running of the tournament cost and the tournament director (Mike Zuglan). There are also referees and assistants to the tournament director to take into account at all Turning Stone events.

The normal entry fee for the Joss Tour during the rest of the year is $100. $20 is taken out: $10 going to Mike Zuglan for running the tournament, $10 gooing to the host pool room along with a complimentary raffle item that is donated by Joss Tour sponsors.

Anybody who is interested in learning more about the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour should check out the website: http://www.joss9balltour.com. Get your calculators out and check it out.

Oh, one more thing, make sure you all note that Mike Zuglan, a player in his own right, pays his own entry fee and does not get a free ride.

I can provide some more figures, but I'll stop here. I don't think you want to know Mike Zuglan's annual income, or do you? I will say that he qualifies for the New York State's health insurance plan; Healthy New York, I think it's called. The qualification for this plan is based on income.

Glass City Open ceases to exist because of comments and opinions very much like many written on this thread. The American pool culture felt it was too expensive to go to Glass City Open, even though the promoters were barely making ends meet or breaking even, some seasons even taking a loss. Yet, the public still complained. Now there is no more Glass City Open.

Shall we barbecue the Joss Tour now and see if we can get Mike Zuglan to throw in the towel? Is there enough room in this pool world for the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour to exist? Is it a threat to other events? Is it a welcome treat for the players who participate in it?

Two of the most successful pool events in these United States that sell out ahead of time are Allen Hopkins' pro tournament at Super Billiards Expo and Mike Zuglan's twice-a-year Turning Stone Casino event.

If you ever went to Super Billiards Expo and added up all the entry fees for each and every tournament, you may be surprised. It costs a lot of money to run that pool mecca. Nobody is asking Allen Hopkins to provide a profit-and-loss statement. Yet, we all keep coming back. Why? Because it's probably one of most well-run pool exhibitions in the country, like the Joss Turning Stone.

You just don't seem to understand what we are discussing here, so you are either not able to understand or won't understand. I have a hunch of what it is, so I'm done trying to explain it, after this last try.

I have said that I don't care what MZ earns on these events, or how much the tables costs etc. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is how much of the added money goes to the prize fund, and that SHOULD BE 100 %.

If he has $ 2800 expenses for this tournament, then he should say that the added money is $ 22000 instead of $ 25000.

I am not saying MZ is a bad person, or has a terrible tour. I am just saying that he is not advertising correctly when it comes to added money.

You, however, seem to believe that it is ok that he says there is $ 25000 ADDED to the prizefund, even though that is not correct.


Since you keep mentioning that I do not live and play in America, does this mean that I am not allowed to have opinions about what is going on in America? If so, why are you posting in the threads about Philippines, encouraging people to boycott events over there? Have you ever been to the Philippines?


What does Mullah Krekar has to do with any of this? Please explain.

Btw, unless you have Alzheimer you should remember that I've told you that I am a member of the only political party in Norway that wants to send Krekar back to Iraq... Your point of mentioning him in this thread seems even more stupid after that fact...

Roy

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Excellent post. It's as if you actually read the threads and comprehend what's taking place. Almost like magic.

Thanks for stating the truth. :smile:

Lol

if you agree with Chris, then why do you support the way MZ is advertising his events and added money?

It's as if you actually do not understand the threads you read. Almost like magic...

 

[JAM]

You just don't seem to understand what we are discussing here, so you are either not able to understand or won't understand. I have a hunch of what it is, so I'm done trying to explain it, after this last try.

I have said that I don't care what MZ earns on these events, or how much the tables costs etc. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is how much of the added money goes to the prize fund, and that SHOULD BE 100 %.

If he has $ 2800 expenses for this tournament, then he should say that the added money is $ 22000 instead of $ 25000.

I am not saying MZ is a bad person, or has a terrible tour. I am just saying that he is not advertising correctly when it comes to added money.

You, however, seem to believe that it is ok that he says there is $ 25000 ADDED to the prizefund, even though that is not correct.


Since you keep mentioning that I do not live and play in America, does this mean that I am not allowed to have opinions about what is going on in America? If so, why are you posting in the threads about Philippines, encouraging people to boycott events over there? Have you ever been to the Philippines?


What does Mullah Krekar has to do with any of this? Please explain.

Btw, unless you have Alzheimer you should remember that I've told you that I am a member of the only political party in Norway that wants to send Krekar back to Iraq... Your point of mentioning him in this thread seems even more stupid after that fact...

Roy

Thanks for proving my point. Much appreciated! :smile:

 

[Chris_Lynch]

The TS flyer states "Players playing for over $41,000 in prize money" and I believe the total people came up with was $41,400.

I don't think we should continue to mention the TS event or MZ. Maybe we should start a new thread that just asks Tour Promoters to advertise things a certain way. I'm done with this thread and I think everyone knows where I stand. Best wishes to all.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

The TS flyer states "Players playing for over $41,000 in prize money" and I believe the total people came up with was $41,400.

I don't think we should continue to mention the TS event or MZ. Maybe we should start a new thread that just asks Tour Promoters to advertise things a certain way. I'm done with this thread and I think everyone knows where I stand. Best wishes to all.

1) I have seen the flyer and it does say over $ 41,000, but it also says $25,000 added. IMO, he should either have paid $44,200 or said $ 22,200 ADDED and players playing for over $ 41,000 in prize money. I believe the last option would be the best, in this situation.

2) I completely agree with you that this deserve a thread of it's own. I remember Grady starting a thread about this a year or two ago, and it certainly deserves to be brought back now.

What this thread has turned into is NOT an attack on Mike and his tour/events, but it's about what promotors put in print on their posters.

 

[cardiac kid]

I don't think we should continue to mention the TS event or MZ. Maybe we should start a new thread that just asks Tour Promoters to advertise things a certain way. I'm done with this thread and I think everyone knows where I stand. Best wishes to all.

Chris,

I agree wholeheartedly. Mike does not deserve this grief. Spoke with him for half and hour this morning. It appears no one has called him regarding the subject of this thread. It figures. Typical group of whiners. Done!

Lyn

 

[Tom In Cincy]

For those fans of MZ and the Joss TS classic event, I understand your support and defense of the event and its founder MZ. From all the information I've seen and heard on AZ and from players MZ is truly beyond reproach and considered a asset to the industry.

The original question of the money break down hasn't really been answered and it was asked by another venerated individual of the industry Mark Griffin. I would gather from the majority of players and industry members that Mr Griffin is a long time contributor to the industry and players in the USA. A very huge asset indeed.

Truth in advertising is always a consumer concern. Pool players like to know the who, what, where, when and HOW MUCH in tournament flyers.

All pool players know that there is money to be made in running tournaments and promoters need to make money continually or there just isn't going to be a continued monthly or annual event. No money No Event.

It is none of the players business how much the promoters make.

But when the promoters state what the Added money is and how much the entry fee is, then that is simple math to figure out if there is a discrepancy. And discrepancies happen, sometimes, whomever is person is that figures out the payouts makes a mistake. Even the person that checks the figures makes mistakes.

The math is simple and that is a great way for players to 'shake their heads' in collective agreement that the money is THERE.

When the math doesn't add up, questions and 'head shaking' starts and there is doubt generated towards those in charge of the payouts.

IMO that is all that this thread is really concerned about. Why didn't the math balance?