Tuning Stones XXVl - A Player's Experience

The OP admits he never went to the referee that was within a couple tables of his match when he was intimidated by a 135 pound woman "pro". Instead he waits til he's safe at home, on his computer to dispariage one of top 2 or 3 promoters in the game.
Coward.

As far racking ideas go. If you want to implement rules either get WPA to standardize racking/breaking or start your own tour. Zuglan is not changing and has good reasons not to.

The neutral racket idea is flawed. Most neutral rackers are APA 4s and down who throw bad racks at both players....it doesn't work.
 
rickwen186 said:
after countless hours of debate and talking to many close friends on the subject I have decided to write a review, if you will, of my experience having played in my first event in the Bi-Annual Turning Stones Classic Directed by Mr. Mike Zuglan. The following are my own personal thoughts, opinions, and various factoids about my experience.

First let me tell you, this venue is absolutely beautiful and the equipment is world class. The tournament is run very professionally from the way the players dress all the way to player introductions. I really have to take my hat off to Mr. Zuglan as THIS is clearly why his event has remained as successful as it has been for the amount of time it has been successful.

Mr. Zuglan held a very formal players meeting where he went over all the rules and was very blunt in his dislike for, what ill call. "racking issues". He indicated in the players meeting that if their are racking issues, you must call a referee over, but, and he noted with a sly grin, "you don't want us to get involved." Not sure what that meant as it seemed to be a bit of a mixed message.

I proceeded to play a fellow gentleman amateur at 10 PM that evening and the experience was wonderful. I was fortunate enough to win the match and move onto round 2 on the winner side. The gentleman I played was a class act and I believe that most of the players in that event are just like this gentleman...but not all are.

Round 2, I played a professional player who will remain nameless as what i'm about to write is based on opinion and my perception. Let me first say that I lost 9-2, 11 games of 9-ball, and the match took 2 hours and 15 minutes. Those who know pool, know that something is wrong with that time frame and those who know Mr. Zuglan's event can probably guess what was going on. RACKING ISSUES. This professional player continued to require that I rerack the balls to get "certain" balls to touch while offering that certain other balls did not NEED to touch. Well, we have all watched Racking Secrets and we all know what this player was doing. This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating. I believe that you are either striving for a tight rack or you are not. If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps. You should not be allowed to force a rerack simply based on the premise, "either I get a perfectly tight rack, or...I get the gaps that I want". As a result of this, we played 11 games in 2:15 minutes with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack. I lost, as probably I should have anyway, but I also had no fun playing the game either.

I decided to take my concerns to Mr Zuglan and let me tell you, this was not a pleasant conversation. I approached him from the standpoint of, "IN THE FUTURE, what can I do to ensure that this does not happen again?" He says call a ref. I said OK, then he proceeds to say, Im NOT using a magic rack and Im not going to "rack your own." I said, I see you have heard this complaint before. He proceeded to raise his voice at me, talk down to me, and ultimately turn his back on me and walk away.

I do not actually know why Mr. Zuglan refuses to address an issue that the majority of his players and even viewers dislike. I do not know why he is not more proactive in policing the racking issues he claims to distain. I do not know why when I approached him, he treated me like I was the perpetrator and not the victim. After all, he did say that "you don't want to have to come to us" in the player meeting. I do know that the only power I have to potentially create change is to communicate to anyone who might choose to read this, and to personally choose to NEVER play in or watch a Mike Zuglan event again. At the end of the day, that is the only power us individuals possess to affect change.

Im absolutely positive that his event will continue for another 26 years. He wont miss me, as I wont miss his events either, but I have atleast said my piece and warned those who I could about what takes place at these events when playing some of these pros and what will happen when you approach the tournament director about these issues.

I appreciate everyone's time who chose to read this.
Thank you
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Here is what I would have done. If my opponent was obviously being super picky and wanted gaps only in certain spots.....after the ref was called over, I would make it clear that the ref would inspect each rack. Once the ref is called over, the other player loses their privilege to inspect the rack.
If the ref says it's "OK" then that is it!
Otherwise what is the point of the ref coming over to watch?
 
justaplayer said:
The OP admits he never went to the referee that was within a couple tables of his match when he was intimidated by a 135 pound woman "pro". Instead he waits til he's safe at home, on his computer to dispariage one of top 2 or 3 promoters in the game.
Coward.

As far racking ideas go. If you want to implement rules either get WPA to standardize racking/breaking or start your own tour. Zuglan is not changing and has good reasons not to.

The neutral racket idea is flawed. Most neutral rackers are APA 4s and down who throw bad racks at both players....it doesn't work.
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Competent rackers are that hard to find or teach ? If the requirement is that every ball must be perfectly frozen to another using a wooden rack then I can accept that, but is this a reasonable requirement ?

Oh, I think the woman in question might punch you if you told her she weighed 135. :smile: She is about 5'4" and in very good shape.
 
Thank you Everyone

I just want to thank everyone who as offered their opinion on this subject and my experience in general. For all but one individual who I will not name, you have all conducted yourself respectfully despite your agreement with me or your disagreement with me. Further, thisthread did not devolve into juvenile bully tactics, well, except for one person.

I take the good and toss the trash, that's my motto in life and you all have given me a lot of good.

AGain
Thanks.
 
ronscuba said:
Competent rackers are that hard to find or teach ? If the requirement is that every ball must be perfectly frozen to another using a wooden rack then I can accept that, but is this a reasonable requirement ?
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I agree, so long as the equipment is in good shape, which I'm sure it was. I once impressed upon a friend of mine the importance of a frozen rack, and from then on he gave me the best racks you could hope for. He would not have even been considered a C player, he is a recreational player.
 
nine o nine said:
I would gladly be a racker for room and board!!!! I'm thinking the need for personnel would be ten or twelve for the opening round. As the tournament progressed the worst rackers would be sent home and the best would advance.......just like the players.
All tongue in cheek....or is it really? Mitch
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I would love to as well. Best seat in the house and I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
rickwen186 said:
I just want to thank everyone who as offered their opinion on this subject and my experience in general. For all but one individual who I will not name, you have all conducted yourself respectfully despite your agreement with me or your disagreement with me. Further, thisthread did not devolve into juvenile bully tactics, well, except for one person.

I take the good and toss the trash, that's my motto in life and you all have given me a lot of good.

AGain
Thanks.
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Good response and very mature to not feed the troll. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
 
MR Zuglans Response

First,

Thank you Cardigan for providing Mr Zuglans perspective. I totally agree, there are always 2 sides to every story and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. I get the feeling that MZ, and I don't know him, is the type that jumps to conclusions and is a bit short tempered. That is not a knock on the man, just an explsibation for what I think happened given his side of the story.

First, I never wanted him to "do anything" after the fact except tell me how to best handle it in the future, he would NOT allow me to explain that because as soon as I uttered the word "rack", he stopped listening... He hadn't walked away yet, but he clearly shut down. I offered to him that he has no reason to change the rule because he still sells out his event event every year, and they the only thing that would make him change that was if people chose to stop coming. That was not a threat of a boycot at he described, it was one tournament director trying to offer advice to another as something that could happen.

You can tell him I apologise for his understanding of that line of dialogue, but I only had good intentions with that statement.

He is correct, that the situation went down hill more quickly after that assumption but he shut me down and walked away AS I was attempting to clarify.

I do still maintain that he only "heard" about 20% of what I had to say once I said the word RACK.

I'm sure you know a different man than what I saw but I'm betting you can see the possibility of some truth in what I'm writing. We can both be right if one person stopped listening.

Thanks again for adding this perspective.
 
How about asking local good player amateurs to volunteer to be neutral rackers? Not full blown refs.

I was just at the APA Nationals and somehow they con a bunch of people to volunteer to be full blown refs (but they don't rack). If people will volunteer for that, certainly they would volunteer to rack for the pros

Jeff
 
I'm glad Mike's side of the story finally came out on here. I communicated with Mike several times in the last two days and he told me basically the same thing. The OP conveniently left out an important part of the conversation, one that might have shown him in a different light. What happened between them didn't take place in a vacuum, both sides equally responsible for the outcome of their interaction. Let's call it a draw and move on from here. :grin:
 
I've known Mike for a long time now, and he does not bend the rules for anybody. A few years ago, some pros confronted him about seeding the tournament with byes for the pro players since it was a Mosconi Cup points event, and Mike declined. This upset a few of the pros, but Mike stood his ground.

If you're late for your match after the warning, you forfeit. It doesn't matter if you're Efren Reyes or Joe Schmoe.

On a good note, it is my opinion that the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour is the longest-running regional tour in the country. Bravo to Mike for keeping it going strong. Running tournaments is a lot of work behind the scenes, and you do have to deal with a lot of jerk-offs sometimes, which makes it difficult for the well-meaning players sometimes on controversial issues like racking.

Back in the '80s and '90s, there was never this much attention devoted to racking like there is today. I suggest everyone get their hands on Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets book. It explains how to break a slug rack, racks with cracks, et cetera. Problem solved! :grin:

Mike decided to figure out how to create a pool tour after he was treated unfairly when all the sweetheart pro celebrities were given byes and other perks at major tournaments. It was not fair to the other players. That is how the Joss Tour was born, and I believe it was his goal to ensure that this tour was fair to all players with no favoritism displayed.

Give Mike Zuglan a break, though, on this one. His heart is truly in the right place when it comes to pool. I admire him.:cool:
 
rickwen186 said:
I just want to thank everyone who as offered their opinion on this subject and my experience in general. For all but one individual who I will not name, you have all conducted yourself respectfully despite your agreement with me or your disagreement with me. Further, thisthread did not devolve into juvenile bully tactics, well, except for one person.

I take the good and toss the trash, that's my motto in life and you all have given me a lot of good.

AGain
Thanks.
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Thanks for showing some courage...finally.

Next time go to the referee and stand up to your opponent, no matter who SHE is.

You disparage Zuglan on the internet like it means anything. Guys like you are so obvious with the allegations, but in person you are yellow. You wilted under the pressure of the moment and failed yourself. The TD isn't supposed to be your mommy.
 
rickwen186 said:
First,

Thank you Cardigan for providing Mr Zuglans perspective. I totally agree, there are always 2 sides to every story and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. I get the feeling that MZ, and I don't know him, is the type that jumps to conclusions and is a bit short tempered. That is not a knock on the man, just an explsibation for what I think happened given his side of the story.

First, I never wanted him to "do anything" after the fact except tell me how to best handle it in the future, he would NOT allow me to explain that because as soon as I uttered the word "rack", he stopped listening... He hadn't walked away yet, but he clearly shut down. I offered to him that he has no reason to change the rule because he still sells out his event event every year, and they the only thing that would make him change that was if people chose to stop coming. That was not a threat of a boycot at he described, it was one tournament director trying to offer advice to another as something that could happen.

You can tell him I apologise for his understanding of that line of dialogue, but I only had good intentions with that statement.

He is correct, that the situation went down hill more quickly after that assumption but he shut me down and walked away AS I was attempting to clarify.

I do still maintain that he only "heard" about 20% of what I had to say once I said the word RACK.

I'm sure you know a different man than what I saw but I'm betting you can see the possibility of some truth in what I'm writing. We can both be right if one person stopped listening.

Thanks again for adding this perspective.
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Are you a politician??? Cause all I hear is BS.

Pool tournaments are not democracies. It's take it or leave it. Guess you wont be back for TS 27...too bad cause I'd give you the 7 out if you want some...but I'm sure you hate money too.
 
I'm not a politician player, I just don't believe that two parties must be uncivil too each other during a disagreement. If I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong and I don't need to bully in order to win arguements.

7 and out huh? Get with me the next time you hear my name in the Calcutta. I'm all over the place. VA all the way up to Steinway. Better yet, put your name on here so I can hear you in the Calcutta and come hit you up for a game.
 
rickwen186 said:
I'm not a politician player, I just don't believe that two parties must be uncivil too each other during a disagreement. If I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong and I don't need to bully in order to win arguements.

7 and out huh? Get with me the next time you hear my name in the Calcutta. I'm all over the place. VA all the way up to Steinway. Better yet, put your name on here so I can hear you in the Calcutta and come hit you up for a game.
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Rick,

One thing you'll learn as you spend more time on this AZ Forum is "the faceless and nameless are always pro level players in disguise" ;) . Unless of course they really can not play and just hide here behind their keyboard spewing venom. Don't hold your breath for a real name. Personally, I'm going back to being a lamb slayer :eek: :D .

Lyn
 
I have used the following format before, and it seemed to work out fine. It takes a little extra work on the part of the director, but not that much. Those that are still in the tournament, do the racking. The director knows who is on deck next, and their job now becomes racking for the table that they will be playing on.

This also gives the racker a good look at how the table is playing. Sometimes, it's not really clear just who will be next, but you always know what players are on deck. You win your match, you know you will be racking a match. You can also go with you lose your match, you rack a match. (just hope you don't get a sore loser as your racker)

Yes, as noted above, there can still be problems with this scenario, but it does give every table a neutral racker. If the racker is known to be a real close buddy of one of the players, you simply put him on a different table to rack.
 
What people underestimate is the importance of how the balls are racked and the results you get on the break. There is no such thing as a neutral racker because someone could consciously or unknowingly be bias to one player. For example, refs in asian favoring the host country players. People can even screw up when racking with a template rack so that is not a solution.

Best solution is a template rack with rack your own. With some designated pattern to prevent pattern racking. 2 and 3 behind the nine ball might work. Also 9 on the spot makes the break more difficult.
 
rickwen186 said:
I'm not a politician player, I just don't believe that two parties must be uncivil too each other during a disagreement. If I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong and I don't need to bully in order to win arguements.

7 and out huh? Get with me the next time you hear my name in the Calcutta. I'm all over the place. VA all the way up to Steinway. Better yet, put your name on here so I can hear you in the Calcutta and come hit you up for a game.
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I'd run you over...then you'd come here and say I wasn't a nice guy. Awh...poor rickwen.
 
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