Two-Foul 9 Ball

[ironman]

I knew eventually the "wise ones" would enter the conversation. It's been tough to go up against "the masses" of "one foul fans," however, this is a serious subject because "one foul ball-in-hand" did ruin 9 Ball. One foul is nothing but a watered down version of an awesome game......it's "Pool Lite"......Less Strategy, Less Entertainment, Less Skill .....

The "Two Shot Shoot Out" game, when played properly is a beautifully entertaining game and "One Foul", when played properly is a boring, uninteresting game.

Like I've said many times, "Two Shot" puts all the best elements into the game, shot-making, two way shots, two way safes, strategic push outs, strategic banks and cuts, long shots off the end rail, playing percentages, etc.

These things are in "One Foul" too, but only a small percentage compared to 'Two Shot Shoot Out'.....the games are similar when first presented, but when we look at the "deep structure," Shoot Out is far superior strategically and more strategically demanding than even one pocket......and I know makes some on here cringe, but it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I agree it has nearly ruined 9 ball.
ONe of the best adventures of my life was running brifly with Greg Stevens, He would get jjacked up on theo those whters and drive people crazy with shot he would psch out to I mean ridiculous shots but after hours of play they would look at the shot and you could see in their eyes thta there was no way they could make it, but would take the hot and miss because they just knew whe would. The happened an lot with Wade too another great shotmaker.
Shot making and banking is not a part of the game anymore and hence boring.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.people like to see the players "mix it up" and DARE each other to shoot.....or pass.

I agree it has nearly ruined 9 ball.
ONe of the best adventures of my life was running brifly with Greg Stevens, He would get jjacked up on theo those whters and drive people crazy with shot he would psch out to I mean ridiculous shots but after hours of play they would look at the shot and you could see in their eyes thta there was no way they could make it, but would take the hot and miss because they just knew whe would. The happened an lot with Wade too another great shotmaker.
Shot making and banking is not a part of the game anymore and hence boring.

That's right, I played Wade "two shot shoot out" in North Carolina and was lucky to escape even.....he could "cut the paint of the ball" and tested me on those shots from the very beginning. It was very intense competing against the really seasoned players like Wade and Buddy Hall.....Buddy made you earn EVERY single shot.....when someone could beat him playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there was no question their caliber of play....not so in one foul!

Craig Stevens was one of the all time greatest shot-makers, you're right! The "Sparring" between the two players is what's interesting, not the "one foul" format where both players are "hitting a bag by themselves".......people like to see the players "mix it up" and DARE each other to shoot.....or pass. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[elvicash]

CJ have you considered doing a 2 shot invitational tourney in Dallas. Perhaps small field invite 8-16 high level players and reintroduce the game to the world. It is one thing to see the rules on on the screen and something else to see it played. Perhaps you could do this and stream it so the entire world could see it played. I know you are a TV man, I am too pool needs to be on TV. Currently quality distribution is available via streaming and when it is on the net anyone can watch or watch again later at their convenience. Well anyway if you had an elite field of players playing a 2 shot tourney you would garner some interest, and that superior game could be reintroduced to the pool world.

In closing CJ, I doubt you remember me (Dana) but we went and saw Clapton once in Indy. Our group included Big Arm John and Janie, Doug Smith and also Brian Groce. I actually drove your gold colored Caddy with long horns on the hood when I went out to pick something up. That was a sweet car, with a great sound system. Anyway at the end of the night you and Doug played some 9 ball on the bar table at John's house, that was great to watch. I must say it was an interesting night. Glad to see you back to playing and promoting pool

 

[ironman]

That's right, I played Wade "two shot shoot out" in North Carolina and was lucky to escape even.....he could "cut the paint of the ball" and tested me on those shots from the very beginning. It was very intense competing against the really seasoned players like Wade and Buddy Hall.....Buddy made you earn EVERY single shot.....when someone could beat him playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there was no question their caliber of play....not so in one foul!

Craig Stevens was one of the all time greatest shot-makers, you're right! The "Sparring" between the two players is what's interesting, not the "one foul" format where both players are "hitting a bag by themselves".......people like to see the players "mix it up" and DARE each other to shoot.....or pass. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Greg . O a;waus fe;t pocketed balls as well as onayone ever did as did the youg Danny Medina. They matched up in Denver way back in the 70"S and that was one of theomsot entertaining matches I ever saw. I remeber at one point Danny sating, "Position gers in this guys way".
I say we aboblish one foull right now. it was a bad idea from get go.

 

[Neil]

That is one of the most arrogant posts I have read in a while.
Well Earl is still kicking ass and has won the US open 5 times, so it is possible he knows something you don't. The weights are actually an interesting idea, and the shooting glasses are not as stupid as they may appear. Earl has unorthodox fundamentals, and he claims the weights help him stay still especially during the break. The glasses have a purpose too. You'll notice that most players when playing keep their eyes on the table at all times to keep their eyes adjusted to the distances and light conditions. Earl tends to interact with the crowd more, taking his eyes off the table. The glasses can maybe even out the differences in light levels. Also yellow glases are used in shooting to improve contrast.

Earl is not some apa 4 that struggles with drawing his ball. He's an exceptional player, and cookie cutter methods just won't do the trick with him. He is not trying to copy some textbook, because he has allready surpassed the knowledge within it. maybe he does not know the maths and the physics, but he has done more experiments than any scientist or author probably ever will.The same with CJ. If you look geniouses in any field you will see that their technique is often not textbook. Even in classical music which is dominated by people with superior education. They realize that people are built differently and that only in rare cases can the top be reached with textbook methods.

Most of The people on this forum do not dream of becoming apa 5s, they want to be the best they can possibly be. For some textbook methods will work, others will have to go beyond. If you want to climb mount Everest you want to speak to the guy thats been there before, not some cartographer at his desk in London. He may know something about the path, but since he has never been there his information may be inaccurate, and is at best second hand. It may be even worse because he may only include information that confirm his own beliefs.

CJ have made many fine contributions to our understanding of, among other things, the grip and wrist during the stroke. I bet Earl could have shown us some astounding things if he wanted to. But he won't, since he would probably be ridiculed by people who will never achieve even a tenth of what he has.

Arrogant?? Do you even have a clue what the word even means?? What is arrogant about saying that if he just wants to follow the best player, he is following the wrong guy?

 

[YubaCushion]

Arrogant?? Do you even have a clue what the word even means?? What is arrogant about saying that if he just wants to follow the best player, he is following the wrong guy?

Arrogant.
1. Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

Yes, you are arrogant. Your "ability" to understand is exaggerated.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.I played Doug down at Stix and Stones 'Two Shot Shoot Out'

CJ have you considered doing a 2 shot invitational tourney in Dallas. Perhaps small field invite 8-16 high level players and reintroduce the game to the world. It is one thing to see the rules on on the screen and something else to see it played. Perhaps you could do this and stream it so the entire world could see it played. I know you are a TV man, I am too pool needs to be on TV./QUOTE]

Yes, we have an entirely different way to present Pool on TV that we have been developing over the last 3 years. We found one of the missing pieces recently and will be on the "fast track" to producing some events here in Dallas asap.

I have never seen "Clapton" in concert, although I wish I would have. Maybe you have me confused with someone else, I do know all the other people you mentioned though.

That Cadillac was mine for a brief time, but Strong Arm John "forced" me to sell it.

I vaguely remember those times, Dana, and I wish I wouldn't have turned down that concert......I played Doug down at Stix and Stones and beat him "30 ahead" on a big table....he will most likely always remember that Doug played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as good as anyone on the bar table.

 

[YubaCushion]

Yes, we have an entirely different way to present Pool on TV that we have been developing over the last 3 years. We found one of the missing pieces recently and will be on the "fast track" to producing some events here in Dallas asap.

I have never seen "Clapton" in concert, although I wish I would have. Maybe you have me confused with someone else, I do know all the other people you mentioned though.

That Cadillac was mine for a brief time, but Strong Arm John "forced" me to sell it.

I vaguely remember those times, Dana, and I wish I wouldn't have turned down that concert......I played Doug down at Stix and Stones and beat him "30 ahead" on a big table....he will most likely always remember that Doug played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as good as anyone on the bar table.

Is there a clip of something you've done, or something of someone else that we could look at as a reference to how your going to film.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool would be SO MUCH BETTER if 'One Foul ball-in-hand' was abolished today.

Greg . O a;waus fe;t pocketed balls as well as onayone ever did as did the youg Danny Medina. They matched up in Denver way back in the 70"S and that was one of theomsot entertaining matches I ever saw. I remeber at one point Danny sating, "Position gers in this guys way".
I say we aboblish one foull right now. it was a bad idea from get go.

I believe you are right, I played Danny Medina {Two Shot Shoot Out} when he was in "dead stroke," he's one of the few players that ever came to Dallas to play me at my pool room. He had just beat Jose Parica and was playing incredibly well.

We played for two days in a row, and on the second day I "clicked" and found a way to beat him. To this day that was one of the toughest gambling matches I ever played....one day I'll share exactly what happened during that match that made the difference and enabled me to win.

Pool would be SO MUCH BETTER if 'One Foul ball-in-hand' was abolished today.....that's a fact, of course it won't happen, but it may over time with the right TV show leading the way. 'The Game {on TV} is the Leader'

 

[Straightpool_99]

...................

 

[Neil]

Arrogant.
1. Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

Yes, you are arrogant. Your "ability" to understand is exaggerated.

When you start making any sense, let me know.

A number of people have stated that there were a number of ways to play 2 foul. CJ kills the guys thread with his infomercials and flat out wrong and arrogant statements by stating that the way he played it is the only way anyone ever played it. Any time someone disagrees with your exalted hero, you start calling them stupid and retards. Which is a bannable offense in it's own right.

You then go on to state that you will listen to someone that at least at one time has had played a great game over anyone that hasn't won titles. That shows a certain lack of knowledge on your part which has been pointed out many times on here by many other people. Even gave you another example of why not to follow whatever a top pro says by pointing out a few odd things that Earl does and no one else will do. Your crony even steps up defending Earl in that regard, but only on here, I guarantee you he isn't using those gadgets himself.

So, the bottom line is this- CJ is your hero, you believe everything he says as gospel, anyone that doesn't agree with him you resort to calling them names, you have zero interest in the actual truth of things, only what your hero says.

Many studies have been done that show that top performers seldom realize just what they are doing, and therefore can not describe acurrately what they are doing. They can do, but are usually wrong in what they think they are doing. But, you go ahead and keep following every word out of his mouth. Just please stop calling everyone else names when the actual facts and fallacies are pointed out. That's not saying that they don't have anything to offer. It's saying they are often mistaken because what they think they are doing is not what they are actually doing.

 

[YubaCushion]

When you start making any sense, let me know.

A number of people have stated that there were a number of ways to play 2 foul. CJ kills the guys thread with his infomercials and flat out wrong and arrogant statements by stating that the way he played it is the only way anyone ever played it. Any time someone disagrees with your exalted hero, you start calling them stupid and retards. Which is a bannable offense in it's own right.

You then go on to state that you will listen to someone that at least at one time has had played a great game over anyone that hasn't won titles. That shows a certain lack of knowledge on your part which has been pointed out many times on here by many other people. Even gave you another example of why not to follow whatever a top pro says by pointing out a few odd things that Earl does and no one else will do. Your crony even steps up defending Earl in that regard, but only on here, I guarantee you he isn't using those gadgets himself.

So, the bottom line is this- CJ is your hero, you believe everything he says as gospel, anyone that doesn't agree with him you resort to calling them names, you have zero interest in the actual truth of things, only what your hero says.

Many studies have been done that show that top performers seldom realize just what they are doing, and therefore can not describe acurrately what they are doing. They can do, but are usually wrong in what they think they are doing. But, you go ahead and keep following every word out of his mouth. Just please stop calling everyone else names when the actual facts and fallacies are pointed out. That's not saying that they don't have anything to offer. It's saying they are often mistaken because what they think they are doing is not what they are actually doing.

You just mad up the biggest pile of nonsense and bullshit I have ever read on this forum. All my hero's are dead. What CJ says is not gospel, just an opinion. The only person I ever said was retarded is you So if the yellow helmet fits, wear it.

 

[Neil]

What's arrogant is implying that YOUR methods are superior to all others all the time. Sure, you may think CJ and Earls methods are strange and stupid, but then again they sure have made them work. I think it's arrogant to constantly put down people who have accomplished things most of us only dream of. If you take a masterclass with some famous artist and the one guy in the back keeps interrupting and shouting some gibberish about "painting by the numbers" it gets old pretty fast. He would be either thrown out or asked to show his skill pretty fast. But you are right, "arrogant" may not be the most apt description of this kind of behavior. Since I am not a native english speaker, maybe you can come up with something better.

Do you even know what thread you are in? Old Nine Baller started this thread to point out that there were several ways to play two-foul back in the day. But, CJ, you, and Yuba won't allow anyone to disagree with CJ. CJ has to throw in tons of infomercials every chance he gets and brag about himself while doing it. And you two can't stand that CJ was disagreed with so you two have to start trying to run down everyone that does disagree with him. This thread had nothing to do with methods or style of play until you two brought it up because you have nothing of substance to run others down with.

As far as your artist comparison, if the artist says to use your left hand and stroke up to down, and that is the way any master would do it, and to go sideways is the way to mediocrity, but while you watch him, his is going sideways, not up to down, not many with a discerning eye would stay in his class for long. Pretty soon all that would be left are those not really wanting to learn, but just be hanging around a master.

 

[YubaCushion]

Do you even know what thread you are in? Old Nine Baller started this thread to point out that there were several ways to play two-foul back in the day. But, CJ, you, and Yuba won't allow anyone to disagree with CJ. CJ has to throw in tons of infomercials every chance he gets and brag about himself while doing it. And you two can't stand that CJ was disagreed with so you two have to start trying to run down everyone that does disagree with him. This thread had nothing to do with methods or style of play until you two brought it up because you have nothing of substance to run others down with.

As far as your artist comparison, if the artist says to use your left hand and stroke up to down, and that is the way any master would do it, and to go sideways is the way to mediocrity, but while you watch him, his is going sideways, not up to down, not many with a discerning eye would stay in his class for long. Pretty soon all that would be left are those not really wanting to learn, but just be hanging around a master.

This thread was over and dried up. ONB didn't like how it ended so he started back up.
No one said he was wrong or didn't play that way. There are hundreds of ways to play any pool game. At some point you have to separate the made up games from the real ones. Wherever that line is, I will let the people that have played professionally for years make it. He got two out of three, that's not good enough?

 

[Mikjary]

99% of my gambling matchups and tournament playing were any two fouls. Anything else was probably a local thing or a move to trap me. I never even had to ask which two shot rule I was playing.

All tournaments were 2 shot roll out. It wasn't even listed on the tourney description. You already knew it was any two fouls. I can't remember ever hearing a variation to the rules except for not being able to tap the cue ball with the side of your cue stick on a roll out. Or not positioning the cue ball with your stick instead of your hand with a rare BIH.

Best,
Mike

 

[Old Nine Baller]

If someone would be so kind and post the rules from beginning to end I would be happy, so many different things on several threads that my head is spinning.

Please separate the push out, BIH etc I guess these have it´s own mystical rules 1 way, 2 way, or was it 3 different ways…..

Just the basic, scratch, spotting of balls, were you have ball in hand, is it a mandatory push out after the break…..

well I guess I just got into the push out, BIH but … well I hope some kind soul has a way to explain this in a hopefully simple way.

I do feel however I would love this game, shotmaking, different skills - produces more of "I want to learn to bank, cut etc better". I see so many new/young guys that settles for just pocket "easy" shots and play safe even if they have a "dead bank" or similar shot available.

Thanks

Chrippa

To avoid any further confusion I will tell you the rules for what was called "any-two, everything spots up" . Any-Two means two consecutive fouls gives BIH to the player who did not commit the 2nd foul. This was the most common and best way to play.

You can push-out (foul) anytime you like. You can push-out if you have a shot, you can push-out if your opponent pushed-out, you can push-out a 2nd time if you already pushed-out and are told to shoot-again. You can do what you want when it's your inning at the table. If you commit the 2nd consecutive foul you give BIH to your opponent, that's all, so it's usually a wise thing NOT to give up BIH but not always.

There are sometimes strategic reasons for giving up BIH by pushing-out to commit a 2nd foul. Balls that you don't want to break up or move (from current cueball position) might best be left alone so you may give up BIH.

Contrary to some, we played all balls pocketed on a foul spot back up on the footspot. If the foul was the 2nd foul the same rule applies.

There is no "mandatory push-out" ever.

On a "pocket-scratch" that is a 1st foul, BIH behind the headstring is awarded to the player who didn't scratch. If the lowest number ball is behind the line it spots up on the footspot.

On a 1st foul "pocket-scratch" the player receiving BIH behind the headstring can make his opponent shoot-again.

Scratching in a pocket when it is the 1st foul can also be a good move. There are some situations where a player would intentionally scratch if the object ball was near an uptable pocket and he couldn't very well push-out without giving up a good shot. If the object ball was behind the headstring it would spot up on a 1st foul pocket-scratch making it a strategic move and a smart thing to do.

A 2nd foul pocket-scratch is treated exactly the same as any other 2nd foul. BIH is awarded anywhere on the table and any balls pocketed would spot-up.

If multiple balls are pocketed on a foul they all spot up on the footstring, lowest numbered balls first and so on. They would "freeze" to any balls in the way on the footstring.

Thanks for asking the questions, people like you who want to learn the game are the reason I started this thread. If you have more just ask away.

If I remember something that I didn't put here I'll come back and update this post.

ONB

 

[ironman]

I believe you are right, I played Danny Medina {Two Shot Shoot Out} when he was in "dead stroke," he's one of the few players that ever came to Dallas to play me at my pool room. He had just beat Jose Parica and was playing incredibly well.

We played for two days in a row, and on the second day I "clicked" and found a way to beat him. To this day that was one of the toughest gambling matches I ever played....one day I'll share exactly what happened during that match that made the difference and enabled me to win.

Pool would be SO MUCH BETTER if 'One Foul ball-in-hand' was abolished today.....that's a fact, of course it won't happen, but it may over time with the right TV show leading the way. 'The Game {on TV} is the Leader'

I was not iwth him that time yu mention, but he called me once you guys were done and had nothing bad to say about you at all. He said at one point he felt he had you and then as yousaid something clicked and everything changed. He wasnot happy with himse;lf at all, but sid nothing disrespectful

 

[elvicash]

Yes, we have an entirely different way to present Pool on TV that we have been developing over the last 3 years. We found one of the missing pieces recently and will be on the "fast track" to producing some events here in Dallas asap.

I have never seen "Clapton" in concert, although I wish I would have. Maybe you have me confused with someone else, I do know all the other people you mentioned though.

That Cadillac was mine for a brief time, but Strong Arm John "forced" me to sell it.

I vaguely remember those times, Dana, and I wish I wouldn't have turned down that concert......I played Doug down at Stix and Stones and beat him "30 ahead" on a big table....he will most likely always remember that Doug played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' as good as anyone on the bar table.

It does not matter but you went and saw Clapton with us that night. Those were some wilder times, that day you either took us all out to Steak and Ale or the next day. Johns house was right down and around the corner from George house. You and Doug just played a serious practice set you all were in a good mood after the concert. So you might not remember it but you have definitely saw Clapton in concert at least once. That was a big day for me, probably just another day in the life of Wiley.

Anyway that does not matter I would love to see some pool on TV again and I know you were instrumental in doing that in the past. I hope you can accomplish it again. There is a definite lack of promotion and distribution with the sport.

I know you Real Eyes there is a lot of possibility with pool hope you turn it into a reality.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I shook Danny's hand after the match and had respect for him as a man and a champion

I was not iwth him that time yu mention, but he called me once you guys were done and had nothing bad to say about you at all. He said at one point he felt he had you and then as yousaid something clicked and everything changed. He wasnot happy with himse;lf at all, but sid nothing disrespectful

Danny Medina was breaking the balls better than anyone I'd seen in awhile when he came to Dallas. Some of my "consultants" said he had just beat everyone on the west coast including Parica. His shot-making was impressive as well, he was "back cutting" and slamming in long rail banks like they were "hangers"!!!

We played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' (this was the only way anyone gambled at the time) and after the first day we were dead even......and I was relieved to get "out of the trap".

The second day I hit one of the "deadest strokes" of my gambling career and could "feather" the object ball at will. This is devastating playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' because of the end rail maneuvers. Shoot Out players have the ability to shoot extremely well off the end rail and when you can feather a ball "end rail to end rail" it is very intimidating.....even more than making the bank shot.

I shook Danny's hand after the match and had a great deal of respect for him as a man and a champion. He played like a gentleman and it took a lot of courage to come there and play even on my "home court".

I'll always have fond memories of that match and seeing Danny Madina play some incredible 9 Ball.......I was certainly lucky to "click" or I never would have won.

 

[ironman]

Danny Medina was breaking the balls better than anyone I'd seen in awhile when he came to Dallas. Some of my "consultants" said he had just beat everyone on the west coast including Parica. His shot-making was impressive as well, he was "back cutting" and slamming in long rail banks like they were "hangers"!!!

We played 'Two Shot Shoot Out' (this was the only way anyone gambled at the time) and after the first day we were dead even......and I was relieved to get "out of the trap".

The second day I hit one of the "deadest strokes" of my gambling career and could "feather" the object ball at will. This is devastating playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' because of the end rail maneuvers. Shoot Out players have the ability to shoot extremely well off the end rail and when you can feather a ball "end rail to end rail" it is very intimidating.....even more than making the bank shot.

I shook Danny's hand after the match and had a great deal of respect for him as a man and a champion. He played like a gentleman and it took a lot of courage to come there and play even on my "home court".

I'll always have fond memories of that match and seeing Danny Madina play some incredible 9 Ball.......I was certainly lucky to "click" or I never would have won.

He did have the sledgehamer break andit was feared. He played his best during the two shot days and mainly because he was fearless and hated ducking hard shots. if I heard him say it once I heard it 1000 times thatone fould was for men afraid to play like a man. He did not like to duck anything.
Thanks for the kind words about my old friend.