Two tips of english. Blah Blah Blah

[frankncali]

I see your point and the illustration is great. Looking at it its amazing the
we are able to do so much uwanted movement to the OB via throw with such small increments in tip placements.
We all know it but this reinforces the importance of having a straight stroke.

What do you think might be a better aid (language) in giving cuetip placements?

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Guys, if you look at the ball as being 2 dimensional.....bisect it.

Fold it in half.....and start from there.

the outside edge of "1 tip english" would be 12.5 mm from the edge of the fold mark or bisect of the ball.

2 tips would be 25 mm.....etc.

25 mm = .984 inch

 

[TSW]

Guys, if you look at the ball as being 2 dimensional.....bisect it.

Fold it in half.....and start from there.

the outside edge of "1 tip english" would be 12.5 mm from the edge of the fold mark or bisect of the ball.

2 tips would be 25 mm.....etc.

25 mm = .984 inch

See, I think that would be a half-tip. If the outside edge of "1 tip english" is 12.5 mm from the precise center of the cue ball, then to move back to a dead center hit, you're only moving the cue 6.25 mm, or half the diameter of the tip.

The way I measure it, "1 tip english" requires that the precise center of the cue tip be 12.5 mm away from the bisect of the ball.

As in Hal's original illustration, the outside edge of a center-ball cue tip and the inside edge of a "1 tip english" cue tip should line up. Otherwise it's not "1 tip."

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I just bet your math teacher loved you

 

[TSW]

I just bet your math teacher loved you

It's a question of how you define the terms.

I define "X cue tips of English" as "how far one has to move the cue tip away from center ball" measured in units of 12.5 mm. To get to Greenman's first green circle, you're only moving 1/2 a unit away. Hence, 1/2 tip of english.

Question about your system: If 1 tip of right English brings the outside of the tip 12.5 mm away from the bisect line, and 2 tips of right English brings the outside of the tip 25 mm away from the bisect line, then logically shouldn't zero tips of right English bring the outside of the tip on the bisect line? Zero tips of English should by definition be a center-ball hit, but here it's not. The only explanation is that you're changing how you define the unit measurement of "one tip."

 

[jsp]

I hear people all the time saying crap about "two tips of right hand english". This is what I perceive to be "two tips of right hand english". I have a Moori medium well chalked tip on a Schon cue and I'll be damned if I can make a good hit. I challenge you to do it.

This is based on a 2.250 diameter cue ball and a 12.5mm tip.

I think the problem is that we're thinking way too 2-dimensionally.

When you actually look at the CB, you don't look at a circle, but a sphere. Therefore, when you think "tips" of distance, you're travelling around the surface of the CB. This distance is across a 3-dimensional surface of a sphere, instead of a 2-dimensional cross section.

If you want to look at it in terms of cross sectional distance, then you have to take the sine of the distance in "tips". After 3 tips of english, you'll start traveling on the other side of the CB.

Hehe, if you hit a shot with 6 tips of english you'll actually be hitting the CB backwards.

 

[Hal]

the outside edge of "1 tip english" would be 12.5 mm from the edge of the fold mark or bisect of the ball.

No. That's 1/2 tip.

Question about your system: If 1 tip of right English brings the outside of the tip 12.5 mm away from the bisect line, and 2 tips of right English brings the outside of the tip 25 mm away from the bisect line, then logically shouldn't zero tips of right English bring the outside of the tip on the bisect line? Zero tips of English should by definition be a center-ball hit, but here it's not. The only explanation is that you're changing how you define the unit measurement of "one tip."

That's an excellent point.

 

[Hal]

Wilson:
If you look at a ruler and move over "2 inches", you don't move over 1/2 of an inch and then move 1 inch. You move ONE WHOLE INCH then you move another ONE WHOLE INCH. The same with 2 tips. You move over ONE WHOLE TIP. Then you move over another ONE WHOLE TIP.

You do not overlap the tips.

Get some tips and lay one on a pool table. Now lay another one down beside it. You just moved over "one tip". Lay another one down. You just moved over "two tips".

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Guys, I just lost a huge explanation that I had typed.

It is simple. The ball is three dimesional. Center of teh ball is the "edge".
Must be, there is no compromise. The instant you move to the right, the tip cannot even touch the left side....period.

If you hit the cue ball in the center, you are not applying any english at all. It is only when you move away from center and induce spin the "english" is applied.....agreed?

Now, understanding where the edge is, if I said measure "one tip" or "two tips" from the edge of your desk......you wouldn't put half the tip on the desk and half off and begin measuring from the edge of the half that is on....would you?

 

[Hal]

Like I said:

Get some tips and lay one on a pool table. Now lay another one down beside it. You just moved over "one tip". Lay another one down. You just moved over "two tips".

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Who ever said "move over" ....one tip english?


Maybe "add" one tip...dunno, but I would never bother trying to confuse anyone by making it so cryptic.


I can say for certain, that "one tip english" does not ( never has ) = 1.5 tips from center for me.

 

[jsp]

I think the problem is that we're thinking way too 2-dimensionally.

When you actually look at the CB, you don't look at a circle, but a sphere. Therefore, when you think "tips" of distance, you're travelling around the surface of the CB. This distance is across a 3-dimensional surface of a sphere, instead of a 2-dimensional cross section.

If you want to look at it in terms of cross sectional distance, then you have to take the sine of the distance in "tips". After 3 tips of english, you'll start traveling on the other side of the CB.

Hehe, if you hit a shot with 6 tips of english you'll actually be hitting the CB backwards.

I imagine it more like the green circles going to the left...

 

[TSW]

To me, the purpose of measuring English in tip widths in the first place is to create an imaginary grid system on the face of the cue ball. This grid system begins with 0 on the vertical axis and 0 on the horizontal axis: a center-ball hit. The unit of measurement for the grid system is one cue tip's diameter, in this case 12.5 mm. The beauty of a grid system is that each unit corresponds to a constant distance, no matter what direction you move in.

For example, 1 tip right english would correspond to the point 1,0 on the imaginary graph. Two tips right english would be 2,0. Center ball is, of course, 0,0. If you start at 1,0, you should have to move your cue tip the exact same distance to get to 2,0 as you would to get to 0,0. This doesn't hold true under Wilson/Greenman's system. Their measurements of units isn't constant over the face of the cue ball.

Caveats:
1) Of course, this ignores the fact that you're hitting a curved surface with a curved tip. It's simplified for illustrative purposes. I think the vast majority of players think of the ball as a flat surface when they're hitting it anyway.
2) For the most part, this disagreement is irrelevant as long as your own internal aiming system is consistent. However, it can make a difference when you're describing shots to others. I just noticed that "Banking with the Beard" uses Greenman's system when Freddy refers to "1 tip."

 

[macguy]

I hear people all the time saying crap about "two tips of right hand english". This is what I perceive to be "two tips of right hand english". I have a Moori medium well chalked tip on a Schon cue and I'll be damned if I can make a good hit. I challenge you to do it.

This is based on a 2.250 diameter cue ball and a 12.5mm tip.

I haven't read any of the responses but, this is important to you?

 

[supergreenman]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I mistyped.

How can you agree with supergreenman??? He moves TWICE AS MUCH on the second green circle as he does the first green circle. He moves 1/2 of a green circle off center then he moves a WHOLE green circle.

That's not true, my tip placement started for 1 full tip (regardless of the huge tip size shown) to the right STARTING from the very centre of the the CB. You've got your first right hand tip placement starting a half a tip from the centre.

 

[Hal]

Here are some dimensions. As you can see. If you move one tip to the right. You are 12.5mm from the center of the cue ball. One tip.

Mr. Wilson how does this one tip equal 1.5 tips from center?

 

[supergreenman]

When I think of 1 tip from the centre I would consider the edge of the tip being parallel from the centre of the ball. as shown by the green circle.

 

[Hal]

That green circle is only 6.25mm (.246) wide. How can that be "one tip"? That's 1/2 of a tip. I gotta get to bed. We'll argue about this later.

 

[supergreenman]

That green circle is only 6.25mm (.246) wide. How can that be "one tip"? That's 1/2 of a tip. I gotta get to bed. We'll argue about this later.

Hal I just made the size of the tip small so it would stand out. As some previous posters have said, the whole tip doesn't make contact with the CB.

The point I was trying to make is that you should be starting your count with the left hand edge of the tip on the very centre of the CB, not half a tip away like your illustration.

 

[jay helfert]

Hal...A POOL cueball is 2 1/4" in diameter (2.25"). Are your figures wrong, or are you talking about a snooker cueball, which is 2 1/8" (or 2.125")? Either way, as an instructor I never use terms like "tips of english", precisely because different people play with different tip sizes. I use measurements of 1/8", which represents the size of the chalkmark on the CB after contact (and is also the size of the red circle, on a red circle cueball). Helping students to understand how MICRO-adjustments in their aim points on the CB can cause dramatic differences in both pocketing the OB, and affecting the outcome of CB position, is, imo, very important information to learn.

I've said this before...if you take a striped ball and put the stripe exactly horizontal or vertical, and aim the edge of your tip at the outside edge of the stripe, this will be the maximum area you can contact the CB without a miscue. You will need a quality, repeatable stroke to consistently strike the CB on these areas.

Scott Lee

Scott's on the right track here. One or two tips of English just is not very useful information. English is applied in varying degrees, and is more about feel than measurement. You need a good teacher to explain this to you in person, not on the net.