U.S Can't Compete With Most Countries

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
IMO if pro pool is to be saved in the U.S we need to give in to the fact and admit that we can't compete anymore with the Asian countries, Europe, and PI. We haven't been able to for years now. Both the U.S women and men pros that are world class are very few compared to what the other countries have been cranking out over the last ten or more years. All you have to do is see where the biggest percentage of the purse money has gone the last 10 or more years. It goes on a plane back to their country or to the few from other countries that live here. If it wasn't for SVB 90% of it would go overseas.

I like watching the pros from other countries play also, but if at least 20 U.S pros can make a living it sucks for them. What's needed is a National tour that only lets Americans play on it for at least 3 years...maybe 5. Then if we have a dozen or more world class players...open it up for everyone. If not...put a fork in it. The U.S is way too big land wise for travel. Four divisions are needed and at the end of the season the top 4 or 8 meet somewhere in the middle of the country for the tour championships. Johnnyt
 
Isn't that what is and was happening, save for a few of the US Players that do travel.

Having 4 divisions due to ease of travel in the USA, then open it up, expecting foreign players to flood the gates probably won't happen.

They will be playing each other and same result, the foreign players will kick their butts.

In order to be competitive on the World Pool Scene, the players have to expose themselves to it, study it etc, before anything will change.

Can't hide in your own back yard for 4 years and suddenly, "Hey, I'm here and I'm ready".
 
Look at any sport. Sure some sports make millions but it's spread out just like pool. The best get paid way more than the guys at the the bottom. If you want to make a better living then be better at what you do. If your not good enough to compete at a top level then maybe you should find another profession. So you would have be OK with not watching Efren playing in the US. So basically you want watered down pool. You want the UFL and not the NFL. Pool does not have to be set up to pay 300 guys who want to be pros. Whats wrong with paying the best and weeding out those who are pros by profession only? Not to mention I dont think you ever want to take away international interest in pool.
 
Not to mention I dont think you ever want to take away international interest in pool.

The Ukrainian and Polish guys have names that are very hard to pronounce.

Ya just have to make up names for them, like, Garlic Sausage Breath and Perogie Boy.

Geez, I'm hungry now.
 
Isn't that what is and was happening, save for a few of the US Players that do travel.

Having 4 divisions due to ease of travel in the USA, then open it up, expecting foreign players to flood the gates probably won't happen.

They will be playing each other and same result, the foreign players will kick their butts.

In order to be competitive on the World Pool Scene, the players have to expose themselves to it, study it etc, before anything will change.

Can't hide in your own back yard for 4 years and suddenly, "Hey, I'm here and I'm ready".

I think what to OP meant was we need to have a solid infrastructure in place to be a world class force. I can see the point. But you are right....closing yourself in a box will only leave you disappointed when you do open it back up again. Players need a yard stick to measure themselves against the rest of the world.
 
The same is happening in the English football league. Players are bought in to clubs at very young ages from overseas and fill up the vast majority of top 5 or 6 teams. Its not uncommon for the likes of Manchester City to have 1, maybe 2 English players in the starting 11. The result? The English national team slowly slipping down the world ranking and flopping at major tournaments, such as this years world cup. The same has happened in pool. The lower level players just starting out don't get chance to develop because they can't earn a living because the money from tournaments is going to overseas players. Having a national tour would certainly give young players who show a ton of promise like Skylar, the chance to rub shoulders and compete against the best America has to offer. If he got chance to play Shane a few times a season you can't say it wouldn't help him progress.
 
IMO if pro pool is to be saved in the U.S we need to give in to the fact and admit that we can't compete anymore with the Asian countries, Europe, and PI. We haven't been able to for years now. Both the U.S women and men pros that are world class are very few compared to what the other countries have been cranking out over the last ten or more years. All you have to do is see where the biggest percentage of the purse money has gone the last 10 or more years. It goes on a plane back to their country or to the few from other countries that live here. If it wasn't for SVB 90% of it would go overseas.

I like watching the pros from other countries play also, but if at least 20 U.S pros can make a living it sucks for them. What's needed is a National tour that only lets Americans play on it for at least 3 years...maybe 5. Then if we have a dozen or more world class players...open it up for everyone. If not...put a fork in it. The U.S is way too big land wise for travel. Four divisions are needed and at the end of the season the top 4 or 8 meet somewhere in the middle of the country for the tour championships. Johnnyt

Wow this is all brilliant. We should call Joe Tucker and see if he can get something started. Oh wait...
 
IMO if pro pool is to be saved in the U.S we need to give in to the fact and admit that we can't compete anymore with the Asian countries, Europe, and PI. We haven't been able to for years now. Both the U.S women and men pros that are world class are very few compared to what the other countries have been cranking out over the last ten or more years. All you have to do is see where the biggest percentage of the purse money has gone the last 10 or more years. It goes on a plane back to their country or to the few from other countries that live here. If it wasn't for SVB 90% of it would go overseas.

I like watching the pros from other countries play also, but if at least 20 U.S pros can make a living it sucks for them. What's needed is a National tour that only lets Americans play on it for at least 3 years...maybe 5. Then if we have a dozen or more world class players...open it up for everyone. If not...put a fork in it. The U.Si is way too big land wise for travel. Four divisions are needed and at the end of the season the top 4 or 8 meet somewhere in the middle of the country for the tour championships. Johnnyt

See where you're coming from, but the argument is very weak. A major reason we've fallen behind the world is that our best players don't compete often enough against the stars of Europe and Asia. An Americans-only tour would widen, not narrow, the gap between American pros and the stars of Europe and Asia.

The gap right now is huge.

Europe could field a team of five of Appleton, Hohmann, Feijen, Immonen and Souquet. That's five world 9-ball champions including the last three. Even if they left their five world champions home, they could field a team that would be favored over any team America could put together.

Asia could put up a team of five of Ko Pin Yi, JL Chang, Dennis Orcullo, Carlo Biado and either Johan Chua or Ko Ping Chung. Good luck against those guys.

Avoiding these superstars is no way to raise the bar in American pool.
 
See where you're coming from, but the argument is very weak. A major reason we've fallen behind the world is that our best players don't compete often enough against the stars of Europe and Asia. An Americans-only tour would widen, not narrow, the gap between American pros and the stars of Europe and Asia.

The gap right now is huge.

Europe could field a team of five of Appleton, Hohmann, Feijen, Immonen and Souquet. That's five world 9-ball champions including the last three. Even if they left their five world champions home, they could field a team that would be favored over any team America could put together.

Asia could put up a team of five of Ko Pin Yi, JL Chang, Dennis Orcullo, Carlo Biado and either Johan Chua or Ko Ping Chung. Good luck against those guys.

Avoiding these superstars is no way to raise the bar in American pool.

Good post.

The biggest issue I see is that in order for an American to play against the best foreign competition, they usually have to travel overseas which can be very expensive. On the flip side when the Asians or Europeans come stateside they usually have those expenses paid for. At least that's what I've heard. I might not be completely right.
 
Some players do get their expenses covered by their stable/backers/gov't etc., but many do not. The thing is that they come over expecting to be able to recoup their expenses and make a little on top of that. There just aren't many American players who can go over to Europe and Asia with the same expectations.
 
See where you're coming from, but the argument is very weak. A major reason we've fallen behind the world is that our best players don't compete often enough against the stars of Europe and Asia. An Americans-only tour would widen, not narrow, the gap between American pros and the stars of Europe and Asia.

The gap right now is huge.

Europe could field a team of five of Appleton, Hohmann, Feijen, Immonen and Souquet. That's five world 9-ball champions including the last three. Even if they left their five world champions home, they could field a team that would be favored over any team America could put together.

Asia could put up a team of five of Ko Pin Yi, JL Chang, Dennis Orcullo, Carlo Biado and either Johan Chua or Ko Ping Chung. Good luck against those guys.

Avoiding these superstars is no way to raise the bar in American pool.
Bubwit chua is a solid player but I'd put ko ping chung , yu lung Chang and Lee van corteza aheaf of him. For that matter, id evn put jeffrey ignacio ahead of him as well.
 
Thats weak!

The American players are weak lamb killers. They have spent to much time sealing from lower level players, stalling and avoiding tuff games. I have always thought that Johnny Archer could beat anybody when his break is working, but I heard him say on a AccuStats tape that he would play Dennis O with the 7 ball, THE 7 BALL!!!

Wow Johnny, I'll play him with the 7 ball too!! Our guys just don't play each other enough if at all and there are not enough tournaments that pay enough for them to support themselves and they don't seem to want to work?

I still believe that Rodney and Archer can beat anybody when they are at the top of their games, but I don't know if we will ever see them at the top of their game again, do they care enough to put in the work?
 
This old argument sounds good on paper, but all the players from the Asian countries played each other to get good. Then they traveled to the U.S to kick our ass. If our players had something to shoot for (money) they would put in the work to get much better. I don't know about you all, but I'm tired of watching overseas players taking most of the purse money back to their country. Johnnyt
 
US competing with other countries

Johnnyt is talking about an interesting concept.

About 8 years or so ago I surveyed 100 players or so. A couple of things I remember were almost everyone thought a players assn was needed and that it would allow international players to compete in all events.

I did a check and in about 5 or 6 years, CSI had paid over $137,000 to the Phillipino players. This was a couple of years ago when they really did dominate.

Just going by memory. But I think if more of the money stayed in the country, we could raise the bar of North American players and then get them to go overseas.

Unfortunately, I'm too busy trying to make a living than to keep trying to improve American top level pool playing. It is a real shame - but without any financial future, how can we expect people to get excited, involved, and dedicated?

Mark Griffin
 
So why can't we just run a "Mosconi Cup" team qualifier. Top four go on the team with the two guys finishing fifth-sixth to duke it out for the fifth spot. Or, the fifth spot could be captain's choice. Brainstorming isn't bad.
 
Johnnyt is talking about an interesting concept.

About 8 years or so ago I surveyed 100 players or so. A couple of things I remember were almost everyone thought a players assn was needed and that it would allow international players to compete in all events.

I did a check and in about 5 or 6 years, CSI had paid over $137,000 to the Phillipino players. This was a couple of years ago when they really did dominate.

Just going by memory. But I think if more of the money stayed in the country, we could raise the bar of North American players and then get them to go overseas.

Unfortunately, I'm too busy trying to make a living than to keep trying to improve American top level pool playing. It is a real shame - but without any financial future, how can we expect people to get excited, involved, and dedicated?

Mark Griffin

I said long ago be careful what u wish for add more money and u open the gates for the others ,, woman's golf is a prime example of that

1
 
Wow this is all brilliant. We should call Joe Tucker and see if he can get something started. Oh wait...

Thanks you made me lol

Not the total answer but if we did have a self sustaining qualifying tour with 5-600 players that allowed our aspiring players to steadily compete while relieving a lot of the financial pressure we would be in a better place.

I'm leaving again tomorrow to go out and ask the American pool world to help build such a tour for its players and for the industry itself. A lil disgusted in the amount of support we've gotten from the higher end players but am really proud of the club owners and the mid level players that have stepped up and built what we have so far. Actually had 2 pro level players pass up a free opportunity to play in groups that had no chance of beating them but wanted their competition. Old dogs new tricks I guess? Hopefully I'll last long enough to help some new pups build something for their sport ;)

American Rotation Championship Series III​
12 players from around the country qualified for the Series III Finals which was held in conjunction with this years BCAPL Nationals at the Rio in Las Vegas.

Two round robin groups of 6 players each had everyone playing five 120 point matches on the first two days of the event. Two players from each group would emerge to make the final four single elimination stage but all 12 players were in the money as soon as they landed in Vegas.

Semi finals and finals matches were races to 140 points. Up on table 2 in the pro arena were Scott Johnson of Gate City Billiards NC who is the only player to have made it to all 3 of our National Championships vs Professional player Mike Dechaine playing in his 2nd Championship. On the streaming table we had defending Champ Jerry Calderone facing Matt Tetrault who was on his first trip to our nationals. Sitting in between both tables was none other than the Man, the Magician, Efren Reyes, who had recently played two games of American Rotation himself with Daniel Busch of Pov Pool at Hard Times Bellflower. We were very honored to have him sweating it in the front row. If the streaming table didn't bring some extra heat for the players, having Efren as a spectator may have done it as neither Matt or Jerry took control of the match as opportunities to do so arose. This forced the match into the last rack with Jerry advancing and coming one step closer to becoming our first repeat Champion. On table 2 Mike Dechaine had defeated Scott Johnson leaving Scott tied for 3rd 4th and setting up what was sure to be a tough final match.

The finals did not disappoint. Jerry is a working family man from South Florida that quite often flies under the radar so Mike was a pretty big favorite in many eyes. Jerry came out quick putting some pressure on Mike by taking leads of 29-11 and 51-29. Mike being the young but experienced player he is took a timely break to refocus in an effort to tighten the match, a big lead in AR can be tough to overcome. We think it worked as Mike scored a complete 20 point break and run making the score 51-49 in favor of Jerry. From there both players held serve fairly well on their breaks or struck back when needing to do so; 16-4 Jerry, 15-5 Mike, Mike breaks serve with a 13-7 and Jerry breaks back with a 14-6 as we hit 101 Mike to 99 Jerry. The finals to 140 points came down to a score of 121 for Dechaine and 119 Calderone with Dechaine breaking. Jerry would need to steal 2 points off of Mike's break to ensure one more rack and an opportunity to run his rack for a 2nd National title. Mike broke them nicely and started the rack with ball in hand, ran all the way down to a 12-13 combo, he sized up the tricky shot carefully knowing that Jerry needed just one of these 2 point balls to extend the match. He made the combo but position on the 12 escaped him and he was forced to place safe with just the 12 14 & 15 remaining on the table. Jerry later stated that he had two shot choices; a return end to end safety that would allow Mike to see the 12 ball or a rail first kick that would leave Mike hooked. He opted for the kick safe but didn't get deep enough behind the 12 ball which sent both the 12 and cue ball out towards center table leaving Mike the opportunity to run the three remaining balls to become the 3rd American Rotation Nation Champion! Final score 140-119 Mike Dechaine over Jerry Calderone.

The American Billiard Club wishes to thank all the clubs and players in America and Canada that helped make this another successful Championship. Our mission is to unite some of our best billiard clubs with some of our best players to form one self sustaining tour for our sport, our industry and our players. We also aim to reduce player expenses significantly by having players earn their way to short, sweet and paid for national events, they're in the money before they ever hit a ball at our nationals.

Group A
Ryan Lineham Snookers Providence RI $1,000
Clifton Frederick Bumpers Huntsville AL $950
Danny Mastermaker Pockets Newport News VA $1,000
Nick Tafoya Albuquerque Billiard Academy NM $920
Matt Tetrault Ivory Billiards Holyoke MA $1,500
Mike Dechaine Snookers Providence RI $3,000

Group B
Gordy Vanderveeer Jamaica Joe's Midwest City OK $1,000
Roger Miller Tailgators Ottawa Canada $1,000
Aaron Remijio Hard Times Bellflower CA $850
Scott Johnson Gate City Billiards NC $1,500
Jerry Calderone Sharp Shooters Miami FL $2,000
Corey Harper Golden Cue South Elmonte Ca $850

Links to Finals and Semi final matches;
Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwP2D3T10c&list=UU3cyLRrukXsAiDxnTKobv4Q
Semi Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB8_UYbMBJg&list=UU3cyLRrukXsAiDxnTKobv4Q

Series IV and V Nationals will be held in VA just prior to the U.S. Open and in conjunction with the 2015 Derby City Classic. We urge all pool lovers of all playing levels to become part of the American Billiard Club simply by uniting 10 local players and sending one of them to our next Championship.

Improve your game and our sport!
Www.AmericanBilliardClub.com or Joe Tucker at Jttenball@gmail.com
 
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