You're right about that. We used to gauge players on the power of their stroke, but no more. I doubt we'll see slow cloth again anytime soon. Simoniz sponsors a lot of events.
U.S. Open Update
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
You're right about that. We used to gauge players on the power of their stroke, but no more. I doubt we'll see slow cloth again anytime soon. Simoniz sponsors a lot of events.
Jay, what do you think about these suggestions? (You are already addressing match schedules)
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2671332#post2671332
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2671332#post2671332
Thanks for the honesty, and the full disclosure. I think paying the next day is absolutely fine, and cash is certainly great as well. Even a check the next day during "normal" business hours is completely acceptable in an event of this stature.
What i am curious about though, as I sure you are expecting to be asked, is why aren't 1st and 2nd paid in the same fashion? I know this is not your fault, as you are not the promoter, but you seem to know a lot about this, and I think it is a fair, objective question.
While I realize it only pertains to 2 participants, the fact remains that there is no reason for it. All entry fees are paid up front. All sponsor money should be collected in advance (standard in most business/promotion situations) and all "gate" revenue is collected on the spot. Considering how many "sketchy" situations exist in the pool world, and that the US Open seems to be the defining/epochal event for many players, why does the US Open set this standard? Why do they not set an example and pay on the spot. Of course, cash is not required as long as a valid check or similar instrument is presented.
While I can understand that receiving the money "within a month" is still pretty nice, why does this problem exist in the pool world, at such a prestigious event? This does not happen at poker tournaments, which are set up almost exactly the same way. By that I mean, players pay an entry fee, the money goes in a pool, the event concludes, the players get paid. Why should Corey and Darren have to wait? Why does the possibility of not getting paid have to exist? Especially considering the current climate of the billiards community.... Paying on the spot (even with a check, which is acceptable for such a large amount) prevents all speculation of "did they get paid?" And it also seems like the proper way to conclude an event and ease the mind of the winners.
Please understand that I am not trying to "stir the pot" or make any accusatory statements. You brought it up, and said it was in the interest of full disclosure, so I am assuming it is open for discussion. I also assume you have an answer, so I would just like to know.
Does it say on the entry form that if you win you will get paid within a month? To be honest, this just doesn't seem right, necessary, or justified.
I can speculate that the amount of added money required to get peoples attention is so high that promoters need to make promises which they may not be able to deliver. And while I am sure the US Open will make sure the winners eventually get paid, there are many people who may try to mimic this example (think Galveston) and then not have the money they promised, thus perpetuating the problem. Which is why, in my opinion, the US Open should set the standard and not let other promoters think this is acceptable.
the only problem i had with the open is that it is so expensive just to watch..... and it would b nice if u could arrange the seating to where u can have more vip seats at a lower cost
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All good suggestions, please forward them to me at jayhelfert@yahoo.com so I can pass them along to Barry and Shannon.
By the way I also suggested more food choices for the snack bar, like pizza, pretzels and chicken wings. I think they did have pizza slices on some days. Also the latest any match started this year was close to 1 AM, and that was on the night of the Hall Of Fame banquet. We have already addressed this issue for next year, moving the banquet up by one hour and ending it promptly at 7 PM.
Like you I don't think any match should start after Midnite, and I prefer a last round that begins at 11 PM. Players playing in late night matches this year, did not have to play back in the first round at 11 AM the next day. The earliest they played was 1 PM. This year I was the guy mainly responsible for making the match scheduling work, with input from Ken Shuman. The latest any match ended was just before 3 AM, and that was only on that one night. Other than that, around 1:30 AM was the normal end of play, with two nights that went until just after 2 AM. Much better than the precious two years.
Thanks again for your input!
I don't have the answer for this, other than to say that keeping large amounts of money on hand may not always be the best idea. I do feel that Barry went a long way this year to improve on his previous pay out procedures. Is it perfect, perhaps not yet. Is it acceptable, I think so. Like I said earlier, I don't think any player has a problem with how they got paid this year, even the two top players.
At a time when getting paid has become a real problem for professional pool players, I think the way the $180,000 in prize money for the U.S. Open has been handled is a relief for them.
I see another thread on here about the IPT, but all I can remember is how long it took the players to get paid for the final event. Not months but years, and only after criminal action was pending. Not many people know that Efren Reyes only received his final payment this year!
Magic Rack, and they have to break over 20 MPH... This will prevent anouther racking competition. ...if you know what I mean... (as you had stated)
Making and enforcing tourney rules on the Magic Rack
One of the issues with Magic Rack is the removal of it from the table. I've seen many a pool player who's hands shake a lot. When removing the MBR with a ball(s) in close proximity, they don't need to be removing it.
At some very infrequent times when the MBR has remained on the table due to balls in or on the MBR, someone is going to want it removed for fear it will alter the natural physics of the shot. I'd think the ref would be called in at this point.
And, what happens when a player removes the MBR and accidentally moves a ball?
These instances will need to be discussed and all players actually pay attention to the instructions
. These are not insurmountable issues, but change often comes difficultly to stubborn ole players!
Does anyone know how these issues are handled in tournaments abroad?
One of the issues with Magic Rack is the removal of it from the table. I've seen many a pool player who's hands shake a lot. When removing the MBR with a ball(s) in close proximity, they don't need to be removing it.
At some very infrequent times when the MBR has remained on the table due to balls in or on the MBR, someone is going to want it removed for fear it will alter the natural physics of the shot. I'd think the ref would be called in at this point.
And, what happens when a player removes the MBR and accidentally moves a ball?
These instances will need to be discussed and all players actually pay attention to the instructions
. These are not insurmountable issues, but change often comes difficultly to stubborn ole players!Does anyone know how these issues are handled in tournaments abroad?
One of the issues with Magic Rack is the removal of it from the table. I've seen many a pool player who's hands shake a lot. When removing the MBR with a ball(s) in close proximity, they don't need to be removing it.
At some very infrequent times when the MBR has remained on the table due to balls in or on the MBR, someone is going to want it removed for fear it will alter the natural physics of the shot. I'd think the ref would be called in at this point.
And, what happens when a player removes the MBR and accidentally moves a ball?
These instances will need to be discussed and all players actually pay attention to the instructions
Does anyone know how these issues are handled in tournaments abroad?
Most, if not tournaments I've watched abroad had refs right at the table. Players never touched the magic rack. Johnnyt
One of the issues with Magic Rack is the removal of it from the table. I've seen many a pool player who's hands shake a lot. When removing the MBR with a ball(s) in close proximity, they don't need to be removing it.
At some very infrequent times when the MBR has remained on the table due to balls in or on the MBR, someone is going to want it removed for fear it will alter the natural physics of the shot. I'd think the ref would be called in at this point.
And, what happens when a player removes the MBR and accidentally moves a ball?
These instances will need to be discussed and all players actually pay attention to the instructions
Does anyone know how these issues are handled in tournaments abroad?
That´s handled like normal adults should handle it.
Take the fvcking ball away, take the MBR away, put the ball back on his spot.
Sorry, but Ball Cleaning is common all over the world, so there should be no problem with that.
In Austria we are officialy playing with the MBR, and only have troubles with stupid guys.
But you will allways have troubles with dumb asses, you know.
Guns don´t kill people, people kill people, so...............................
MBR don´t cause troubles, dumb people cause troubles :grin:
And in case of that you will have a tournament leader for it.
Eric"h" -------- only my 2 cent
So you only saw the final rounds where refs are available.
From start on the players are doing it by themselfs and there is no problem with that.
If its something close, ok, lets do it together ...................
Troubles with it, ok, get the tournament director over, thats it.
Eric"h" ------- there is no difference to a normal rack, only better :grin:
Great post Eric H. You got style! I've been using it almost exclusively for well over a year and there's never been an issue that couldn't be handled with just an iota of common sense. I realize what a step backwards a conventional rack is IMO.
At one of the halls here in Greensboro they offer your choice of a Delata 13 or MBR. The vast majority of players choose the Delta, and 'fiddling' with the Delta is the norm and not the exception.
I think the influential stronger players don't like the MBR as it eliminates their racking advantage. Then the flock follows blindly, and the fleecing and inconsistent racks continue.
I am not a PRO, but still am able to hit some balls, so I can only find one fvcking negative thing about the MBR.
And that is, that 9-Ball is to easy of a game with all the balls being perfect all the time.
If you build the rack on the normal position a soft to medium break will give you one runout after another.
But as they do it at EURO TOURS over here in Europa for years now, there should be a rule against these soft breaks.
Something like the "Kitchen Rule" could be enough, I think.
At least you will see the PRO´s breaking with medium not soft speed. :grin-square:
Eric"h" -------- will never player without TAPPING or MBR again
And that is, that 9-Ball is to easy of a game with all the balls being perfect all the time.
If you build the rack on the normal position a soft to medium break will give you one runout after another.
But as they do it at EURO TOURS over here in Europa for years now, there should be a rule against these soft breaks.
Something like the "Kitchen Rule" could be enough, I think.
At least you will see the PRO´s breaking with medium not soft speed. :grin-square:
Eric"h" -------- will never player without TAPPING or MBR again
Us open 9-ball
Dear Mr. Helfert,
While I only play in local tournaments-I think it's appauling to host a tournament and not pay your top 2 winners in full on the spot- I do believe Mr. Behrman had posted that he was going to bring a wheelbarrow with 75K out with armed guards and present it to the winners.
I know he worked very hard to secure good faith with everyone, only to stall payment to the winner.
Is this a case of "If you can't avoid it, embrace it?".
We've been eating shit for so long, what's a little more?
It's better than nothing.
That's the attitude that will continue to hinder us.
sad and sick we tolerate it.
Dear Mr. Helfert,
While I only play in local tournaments-I think it's appauling to host a tournament and not pay your top 2 winners in full on the spot- I do believe Mr. Behrman had posted that he was going to bring a wheelbarrow with 75K out with armed guards and present it to the winners.
I know he worked very hard to secure good faith with everyone, only to stall payment to the winner.
Is this a case of "If you can't avoid it, embrace it?".
We've been eating shit for so long, what's a little more?
It's better than nothing.
That's the attitude that will continue to hinder us.
sad and sick we tolerate it.
Sorry Jay, but you should not take the worst case of all time as an example, and thats what the IPT was.
You should take all other sports as an example, like tennis or golf, you know.
And no, it is not acceptable that after somebody won a big tournament and big money to do that.
It is not acceptable to tell him he has to wait a month - WHY - because he is told afterwards.
THAT´s NOT ACCEPTABLE and no way to do biz or sports
Eric"h"
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In regards to speeding up play, which way do you think would be better:
A) 30 second shot clock with 1 extension per rack on all tables.
B) set 2-3 "benchmarks" (i.e. X amount of games must be played in 30 minutes, Y amount in 60 minutes...), if the number of games hasn't been reached then add a game win to each player.
A) 30 second shot clock with 1 extension per rack on all tables.
B) set 2-3 "benchmarks" (i.e. X amount of games must be played in 30 minutes, Y amount in 60 minutes...), if the number of games hasn't been reached then add a game win to each player.
Thanks for trying to explain, Jay. I know you are not the promoter, so this responsibility does not fall on your shoulders.
That said, I do find it reprehensible that Barry would do this. His event should be the model for others to follow. The players deserver to be paid before leaving the event. I understand that keeping the cash on hand may be a liability, but there is no problem with giving them a check or certified money order. Even giving it to them the next day is acceptable. As I mentioned, all the entry fees are paid in advance, and all the gate money should be collected by this time, so there must be another reason. This type of skepticism should not be invited in by not making full payment on the spot.
And all of this is double-fold considering the press release issued before the event in regards to having the cash on site, armed guards, etc.. Why create all the hoopla if you can't follow through with certainty. The field was full this year, was it not? There were no storms, national emergencies, or any other reason to explain. I have not seen the press release since back when it was issued, but I remember parts of it.
And I agree, what Trudeau did was very bad, but comparing the US Open to the IPT in order to justify things is not really acceptable.
Again, sorry, I know you are just the messenger here. From what I have seen on these forums, you are held in high respect in the pool community. I'm just curious why you would passively accept a policy such as this by lending your name and experience to the event. Yes, it's all great the they will "eventually" get paid, but what's going to happen the one time when they finally don't?
It's a shame the world's greatest players have to deal with antics such as this, I hope more promoters don't follow this example and promise money they can't cover, but just make plans to pay it later on.
I'm surprised more people don't find this troubling. Are we not allowed to discuss it because it is the holy-grail US Open, and as long as players eventually get paid it is acceptable?
Maybe a follow up press release should be issued explaining why the promises of the first press release were not met.
Maybe a follow up press release should be issued explaining why the promises of the first press release were not met.
Jay, to get away from the racking and money issues, can't something be done to get better matches on the TV table? I know people who looked at the streaming schedule and decided not to pay because the matches were lousy. Even in the convention center, sitting ring side, many people would leave because the matches just weren't interesting. Rather than putting two, relatively unknown, mediocre players on the TV table while top notch players and former champions are playing in the same round, something should be done to switch matches around.