Ugly Fact-

[jasonlaus]

Actually I like your thinking here...its too easy at the moment so only a rubbish team could win 7 on the trot including (I think) two very lucky 11-2 and 11-3 wins.

In order to make it a bit harder so only those truly skilled stand a chance I think we should also make the table a bit bigger, I'm thinking 12 ft x 6 ft, use smaller balls, much tighter pockets and maybe introduce a new scoring system.

There...now its all fixed, luck is taken out of it and the unlucky US team should win every year

Lmao! Excellent post!!!!
Jason

 

[marek]

*When you have a race to five, alternate-breaks, against some of the best in Europe, you may-as well be having a coin-flipping contest and the format favors the weaker team.
...therefore TEAM USA was favored by this format and yet they didnt win..


*Everyone is talking about expanding the Mosconi Cup. Make it a race to 13 winner-breaks and you will see who the best players/team REALLY are.
Race to 13 is not viable TV format

*Shane has entered 10 US Opens and won 5 of them - against the best in the world... Not just against a couple snooker-players.
(Did Wych point out that stat?)
Nobody argues about Shane being great player, the problem is he is NOT great TEAM player, everybody has weakness..:sorry:


*The pairing of Sky/Justin playing Scotch doubles has never been beat and I seriously doubt that any two players can beat these two in a long race, for the cash.
May be actually quite close to truth, I would like them to clash with Ko brothers in such race to prove your point

*Mike Dechaine has won more money gambling than all European players combined.
I dont know how much Dechaine won gambling but I know for sure that Darren has history of gambling BIG including winning a money match for 50k pounds (100k in the middle) back in the day he lived in England. And yes, I know that Darren hates those super long races to 100, he likes to play several shorter sets (race to 20 for example) to get his mind into each game. But it bears no relevance to MC at all as gambling is totally different animal from tournament play, it is different type of pressure and needs different mindset. Some players are stone-cold killers in money match situation while others blossom during hill-hill game in the finals of tournament. For me I seldom gamble while I play tons of tournaments through the year and yet I know I can shoot 30% better during money match. Go figure...

 

[ZNizz]

Weren't the rules tweaked to make it more even after the US went on is dominating run over several years? At that time the opinion was Team Europe could never win and couldn't even compete with the break set up/format.

I'm not sure why some act like tweaking them now to make it even again is out of the question.

I think most Americans are too proud to say we need a rule change to win, but hell, if Barry is going to shop around for "tougher competition" for "his" boys, after stacking the deck in their favor, thats bs and I'd rather see a rule change than lose this FUN competition all together.

Worst case scenario, the Europeans continue to dominate....best case, it's a more fun and exciting competition.

 

[jasonlaus]

Weren't the rules tweaked to make it more even after the US went on is dominating run over several years? At that time the opinion was Team Europe could never win and couldn't even compete with the previous break set up/format.

I'm not sure why some act like tweaking them now to make it even again is out of the question.

I think most Americans are too proud to say we need a rule change to win, but hell, if Barry is going to shop around for "tougher competition" for "his" boys, after stacking the deck in their favor, thats bs and I'd rather see a rule change than lose this FUN competition all together.

9 on the spot is common in most tournaments. Quit making excuses - as they say in Waterboy - WE SUCK!
Jason

Btw, Europe used to use Snooker players for the MC

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

The Bar Box has nothing to do with the USA team losing. I watch these guys play all over the country and they Never GAMBLE or PRACTICE on Bar Box tables, 95% of their play and practice is on 9 FT tables.

Not one of the players on the team spends any significant amount of time on the BB, so if they struggle during the Mosconi Cup it aint because they haven't had enough time on the Professional tables.

USA team losing has nothing to do with BB tables? You're correct, I never said contrary to this fact. :thumbup:

But the fact remains that no matter how long a player practices on a 9ft table and aspires to play in the MC at some point they will be hit by the reality that in order to do so, they'll have to compete on BB tables.

So what good is their practice on 9ft tables?

E.G. A golf pro doesn't practice daily on 18 hole courses to then try and qualify for the Ryder Cup playing crazy golf!

The micro management of professional sports are fine. Anything that gives you an edge against your opponent should be seized without hesitation in order to win. So the same thing applies when a player is forced to compete on equipment that WILL NOT give them that edge and in fact probably contribute to their defeat.

Any member of team USA can beat any member of Team Europe on their day. We all know this. But Europe had an edge last week and it was there for all too see. Many factors (not just BB tables) and variables contribute to this...

For now. The best thing any player in the USA should do if they aspire to playing in the MC would be to go play in other part of the world, where the standard is higher and played on standardised equipment. :thumbup:

 

[ZNizz]

I didn't attempt to make excuses. What I'm saying is I enjoy the event and would like to continue to enjoy the event. If barry is going to stop having it because of the Euro domination, it should be disucssed as to what can be done to make it even.

I agree with you that we suck in this MC format and maybe in shorter races we simply won't be able to compete.

But it should always be discussed as how to make the event better. It's unlikely we will see any sweeping change in how American's play and practice pool so the only other alternative is tweaking the rules.

No I didn't know they used snooker players before. I'll have to look into that.

 

[jasonlaus]

USA team losing has nothing to do with BB tables? You're correct, I never said contrary to this fact. :thumbup:

But the fact remains that no matter how long a player practices on a 9ft table and aspires to play in the MC at some point they will be hit by the reality that in order to do so, they'll have to compete on BB tables.

So what good is their practice on 9ft tables?

E.G. A golf pro doesn't practice daily on 18 hole courses to then try and qualify for the Ryder Cup playing crazy golf!

The micro management of professional sports are fine. Anything that gives you an edge against your opponent should be seized without hesitation in order to win. So the same thing applies when a player is forced to compete on equipment that WILL NOT give them that edge and in fact probably contribute to their defeat.

Any member of team USA can beat any member of Team Europe on their day. We all know this. But Europe had an edge last week and it was there for all too see. Many factors (not just BB tables) and variables contribute to this...

For now. The best thing any player in the USA should do if they aspire to playing in the MC would be to go play in other part of the world, where the standard is higher and played on standardised equipment. :thumbup:

Seriously, do you actually think playing on a BB 20 times in a year has caused them to not be able to compete on 9'ers? Really???

Explain how Shane has won 5 US Opens then, at the same time winning BB events?

The excuses keep getting crazier every day.

Just give it up people - we suck at MC and thats it
Jason

 

[jasonlaus]

Making it "fair"? What are we gonna do get a spot?

Yeah its a 5 - 3 race lol. We woulda still been behind. So I guess maybe a 5 - 2 race, yeah, thats the ticket
Jason

Coming soon - The I'm a crying American Mosconi cup by APA.

Mosconi would rise from the dead and jump off the tallest building - these threads are truly embarassing.

 

[ZNizz]

Making it "fair"? What are we gonna do get a spot?

Yeah its a 5 - 3 race lol. We woulda still been behind. So I guess maybe a 5 - 2 race, yeah, thats the ticket
Jason

Coming soon - The I'm a crying American Mosconi cup by APA.

Mosconi would rise from the dead and jump off the tallest building - these threads are truly embarassing.

You quoted the word "fair", so I'm not sure if you are referring to my post or not as I didn't use that word.

Assuming you are though, I think you are missing my point. I'd rather have the rules changed than to lose the event altogether. It was done once already for a reason. To act like now it shouldn't even be considered is ignorant.

Now just maybe there is no rule change in the world that would help the US. Maybe putting the 1 back on the spot, winner breaks, and slightly longer races wouldn't change a single thing....BUT IT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED AND CONSIDERED FOR THE SAKE OF THE EVENT.

That alone is my point.

 

[Jaden]

When will the format, tables etc change and....

Thats a whole lotta excuse in one post:crying::crying::crying::crying: when will it stop?
Jason

When will the format, tables etc change and the erroneous bashing of American pool playing stop?

The truth of the matter is that the top Americans play as good as the top anyone when you're talking about the top 4 or 5 of any country.

There are several problems with the Mosconi cup format that favors the Euros. The loose pockets, short races, etc, make it a crap shoot at best.

There is a psychological factor that no one seems to mention either. That being, this is huge in Europe, live broadcast, many fans (unruly fans at that). That gives Europe a huge advantage, even when it's being played in the US where players can walk into most pool rooms and not be recognized.

The Mosconi Cup is what it is. Barry puts it on and produces it and he's going to produce it in such a way that benefits his pocket book the most, so I wouldn't expect longer races or more professional table setups any time soon until the numbers stop showing up to watch it.

Also, I wouldn't expect Asia, or other teams to be considered any time soon. The Euros love to watch their people beat up on Americans for a change. Besides, it's named after an American player.

The problem comes when idjits come on and try to make this out to be the defacto standard for who are the best players. A race to 5 on loose conditions that can be MORE difficult to play on for people less used to those conditions and starting from a detrimental psychological position.

These aren't excuses, they're reasons, the US should still be right there with the Euros regardless and there are other reasons as well why they're not at this time.

That still doesn't mean that the Euros are better than the Americans and to suggest that while not looking at other deficiencies or things like the majority of team Europe living and primarily playing in the US against US competition, is laughable.

Jaden

 

[vjmehra]

You quoted the word "fair", so I'm not sure if you are referring to my post or not as I didn't use that word.

Assuming you are though, I think you are missing my point. I'd rather have the rules changed than to lose the event altogether. It was done once already for a reason. To act like now it shouldn't even be considered is ignorant.

Now just maybe there is no rule change in the world that would help the US. Maybe putting the 1 back on the spot, winner breaks, and slightly longer races wouldn't change a single thing....BUT IT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED AND CONSIDERED FOR THE SAKE OF THE EVENT.

That alone is my point.

The rules weren't changed to make it easier for either side, they were changed to reduce the number of Break and runs for better TV viewing (you can argue you'd prefer B&R but that's not what Matchroom wanted).

You can also argue the Europeans reacted better to the rule changes, but they weren't done specifically to benefit the Europeans.

 

[jasonlaus]

When will the format, tables etc change and the erroneous bashing of American pool playing stop?

The truth of the matter is that the top Americans play as good as the top anyone when you're talking about the top 4 or 5 of any country.

There are several problems with the Mosconi cup format that favors the Euros. The loose pockets, short races, etc, make it a crap shoot at best.

There is a psychological factor that no one seems to mention either. That being, this is huge in Europe, live broadcast, many fans (unruly fans at that). That gives Europe a huge advantage, even when it's being played in the US where players can walk into most pool rooms and not be recognized.

The Mosconi Cup is what it is. Barry puts it on and produces it and he's going to produce it in such a way that benefits his pocket book the most, so I wouldn't expect longer races or more professional table setups any time soon until the numbers stop showing up to watch it.

Also, I wouldn't expect Asia, or other teams to be considered any time soon. The Euros love to watch their people beat up on Americans for a change. Besides, it's named after an American player.

The problem comes when idjits come on and try to make this out to be the defacto standard for who are the best players. A race to 5 on loose conditions that can be MORE difficult to play on for people less used to those conditions and starting from a detrimental psychological position.

These aren't excuses, they're reasons, the US should still be right there with the Euros regardless and there are other reasons as well why they're not at this time.

That still doesn't mean that the Euros are better than the Americans and to suggest that while not looking at other deficiencies or things like the majority of team Europe living and primarily playing in the US against US competition, is laughable.

Jaden

When are you people going to realize we are talking about the MOSCONI CUP? And the fact is we suck at the MC, its not bashing its the TRUTH.

You making excuses just makes it more pitiful.

So you "people" are saying there aren't any other tournaments the Americans play that are
Alternate break
9 on the spot
Short race
?

Thats what I thought - quit crying

The only reason I post is because all these excuses are BS. If all of you would quit posting BS, we would quit posting the truth.

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT MOSCONI CUP
Jason

Edit: LMAO at tighter pockets would have helped the team who MISSED MORE - You cant make this shit up

 

[Solomon]

*When you have a race to five, alternate-breaks, against some of the best in Europe, you may-as well be having a coin-flipping contest and the format favors the weaker team.

Even if someone prefers the winner breaks format, it is absurd to say that alternate break format favors the weaker team. Maybe you're implying that the alternate break format gives the weaker team/player a better chance of staying in the game and/or keeping the set close; which I somewhat agree. However the data from the past few Mosconi Cups cannot be ignored. In the past few Mosconi Cups we've lost more sets with scores of 5-2 than we have with scores of 5-4. If it were truly a coin-flipping contest, there would be many more hill-hill sets and the final score would be within a few points of each other (not 11-3, 11-2, or even 11-5).

 

[Black-Balled]

You continue to call others out for things you also do.
Hiding identity in one thread, cherry-picking facts to support your position in this one.

Given your sig lines- cue and apa references, it is clear to me that you are really here to cause friction with contentious and inflammatory statements.

Poo-fly. Thats what you are.

*I believe the overall Mosc. Cup match-score is 127-127.
(Did Wych point out that stat?)

*When you have a race to five, alternate-breaks, against some of the best in Europe, you may-as well be having a coin-flipping contest and the format favors the weaker team.

*Everyone is talking about expanding the Mosconi Cup. Make it a race to 13 winner-breaks and you will see who the best players/team REALLY are.

*Shane has entered 10 US Opens and won 5 of them - against the best in the world... Not just against a couple snooker-players.
(Did Wych point out that stat?)

*The pairing of Sky/Justin playing Scotch doubles has never been beat and I seriously doubt that any two players can beat these two in a long race, for the cash.

*Mike Dechaine has won more money gambling than all European players combined.

*I'm not down on the European players - I think they have an incredible amount of "potting skills" but if you use this one cartoon-tournament as your entire gauge to judge the skill-level of all American or europena players - it's stupid. -- The Mosconi Cup is exciting but it's nothing but a quick-fix for YouTube junkies.

 

[vjmehra]

When will the format, tables etc change and the erroneous bashing of American pool playing stop?

The truth of the matter is that the top Americans play as good as the top anyone when you're talking about the top 4 or 5 of any country.

How many major recognised international tournaments have US players won recently? Other than SVB does anyone realistically stand a chance against top international players? For comparison the Europeans have (I think) 3 World Champions on their team?

There are several problems with the Mosconi cup format that favors the Euros. The loose pockets, short races, etc, make it a crap shoot at best.

You contradict yourself there...if the conditions favour the Europeans then how can it also be a crap shoot? It either favours them or its an even game, it can't be both!!

Also how the hell can loose pockets favour one side over the other???

There is a psychological factor that no one seems to mention either. That being, this is huge in Europe, live broadcast, many fans (unruly fans at that). That gives Europe a huge advantage, even when it's being played in the US where players can walk into most pool rooms and not be recognized.

Yes that is true.

The Mosconi Cup is what it is. Barry puts it on and produces it and he's going to produce it in such a way that benefits his pocket book the most, so I wouldn't expect longer races or more professional table setups any time soon until the numbers stop showing up to watch it.

Also true.

Also, I wouldn't expect Asia, or other teams to be considered any time soon. The Euros love to watch their people beat up on Americans for a change. Besides, it's named after an American player.

Yes and no.

I don't think most European fans want to see the current trend continue, lets be honest we all want it to be 10-10 going into the final match, with our side winning the final point in the last rack! We (US and European fans) all want our side to win, but we want it to be a close and exciting game.

I agree the Mosconi Cup will continue, its to popular not to (for now), but maybe Barry will bring an Asian side into the mix too, who knows.

The problem comes when idjits come on and try to make this out to be the defacto standard for who are the best players. A race to 5 on loose conditions that can be MORE difficult to play on for people less used to those conditions and starting from a detrimental psychological position.

Agreed, sort of. The Mosconi Cup shows who the best team is, it doesn't necessarily show who the best players are, however given everyone knows the format beforehand both sides have plenty of time to get used to the format so its reasonable to suggest the European players are consistently better at this format.

These aren't excuses, they're reasons, the US should still be right there with the Euros regardless and there are other reasons as well why they're not at this time.

They are sort of excuses, you say the US should still be right there with the Euros (and I'd agree)...but they aren't and haven't been for a while...hence they are sort of excuses as there is no real reason they should be so far behind.

That still doesn't mean that the Euros are better than the Americans and to suggest that while not looking at other deficiencies or things like the majority of team Europe living and primarily playing in the US against US competition, is laughable.

Jaden

Your argument is a bit inconsistent, but you're sort of right...the European team is currently better, I don't think anyone would argue that. However that doesn't mean man for man every European player is massively better than their US counterparts. It merely means that in the Mosconi format the Europeans have performed better, there's no reason the US can't up their game, no one is stopping them practising the same format!

 

[fastone371]

It is my opinion that if the US wants to be competitive in the MC it needs to have next years team established now. They need to practice and play together, try different pairings, play on the equipment used in the MC, etc.. The problem with that is who is going to pay for the travel costs that they incur? I may be wrong but I am guessing Team Europe practices together and spends more time at the tables with each other than the US Team does. I would also guess that they are probably financed by someone, if Team US does not have this kind of support its unlikely we will see this happen.

 

[ZNizz]

The rules weren't changed to make it easier for either side, they were changed to reduce the number of Break and runs for better TV viewing (you can argue you'd prefer B&R but that's not what Matchroom wanted).

You can also argue the Europeans reacted better to the rule changes, but they weren't done specifically to benefit the Europeans.

Right on. Thanks for that as it makes sense.

I read an account on here in a different thread, not too long ago, that Archer was consulted on how the format could be made more even and he made a few suggestions. Maybe that wasn't a true story or maybe only part of the story.

 

[vjmehra]

It is my opinion that if the US wants to be competitive in the MC it needs to have next years team established now. They need to practice and play together, try different pairings, play on the equipment used in the MC, etc.. The problem with that is who is going to pay for the travel costs that they incur? I may be wrong but I am guessing Team Europe practices together and spends more time at the tables with each other than the US Team does. I would also guess that they are probably financed by someone, if Team US does not have this kind of support its unlikely we will see this happen.

I don't believe the Europeans receive any financial support from an independent body (no idea if the individual countries pool federations contribute, but I doubt it).

I'm not even sure they practice together, other than immediately before the event.

That said, most of the players know each other and see each other by playing tournaments throughout the year.

The other problem is that qualification is now a big thing, so you can't really pick the team a year in advance!

 

[vjmehra]

Right on. Thanks for that as it makes sense.

I read an account on here in a different thread, not too long ago, that Archer was consulted on how the format could be made more even and he made a few suggestions. Maybe that wasn't a true story or maybe only part of the story.

To be fair Johnny probably knows better than me, I'm just going on what I've heard!

Either way both teams can practice under the current rules.

 

[jasonlaus]

It is my opinion that if the US wants to be competitive in the MC it needs to have next years team established now. They need to practice and play together, try different pairings, play on the equipment used in the MC, etc.. The problem with that is who is going to pay for the travel costs that they incur? I may be wrong but I am guessing Team Europe practices together and spends more time at the tables with each other than the US Team does. I would also guess that they are probably financed by someone, if Team US does not have this kind of support its unlikely we will see this happen.

You do realize a few of team Europe live HERE and I seriously doubt they practice together. Also, Europe is more than 50 miles across, these players do not live in the same area
Jason

The excuses keep getting better, keep up the good work:thumbup: