Unforseen benefit of TOI

whitewolf

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My offhand shooting has improved by 800%.

I cannot play the length of the table shots yet, but playing on a half table I just started firing the balls into the pocket with no sweat. Heck, I can even draw the cueball because my stroke has loosened up with the gain in confidence. My pockets on my 9' Diamond table are 4.25" so it was tough to make shots consistently, until TOI opened my eyes again. I didn't change my stance or anything - balls just starting going in with alarming accuracy.

I am wondering if any of you TOI advocates have experienced this? :)
 
One of the challenges for a beginner is cueing accurately. When you first start playing off-handed, your muscle memory is like that of a beginner. This makes it hard to cue accurately. Your brain knows what it wants you to do but your muscles are struggling.

By focusing on a precise point on the cue ball, you are helping your muscles learn.

So yes, TOI can help in this situation. But it's physiological, not physical. Touch of outside or touch of follow or touch of draw or touch of center would do just as well.
 
TSW said:
One of the challenges for a beginner is cueing accurately. When you first start playing off-handed, your muscle memory is like that of a beginner. This makes it hard to cue accurately. Your brain knows what it wants you to do but your muscles are struggling.

By focusing on a precise point on the cue ball, you are helping your muscles learn.

So yes, TOI can help in this situation. But it's physiological, not physical. Touch of outside or touch of follow or touch of draw or touch of center would do just as well.
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I concur but a touch of inside adds touch of squirt and spin that can help...like hugging the rail to the pocket...but you knew that.:smile:
 
LAMas said:
I concur but a touch of inside adds touch of squirt and spin that can help...like hugging the rail to the pocket...but you knew that.:smile:
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I don't want to turn this into an aiming thread, but no, I don't agree that this helps. Why add variables?
 
TSW said:
I don't want to turn this into an aiming thread, but no, I don't agree that this helps. Why add variables?
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You may not have wanted to, but I think you just did.

Are you saying that there is NO benefit to hitting the cue ball off center, either for employing english or employing the deflection aspest?

Regards,
 
TSW said:
Here's what I'm saying: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=310383

For a typical shot, I don't believe there is a ball pocketing benefit to cueing off of the vertical axis.
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You seem to very much contradict yourself. You say touch of center & then speak about what ever spin you want or is needed for the shot so long as it is with a precise tip placement.

I don't think you understand what CJ means by TOI because the intention is for the CB to come off of the OB with no spin.

Precision? No kidding. Center CB strike? I don't think so. I don't think anyone can put the center of a 13 mm tip on the center verticle axis of a cue ball 100% of the time.

You say you don't 'believe'. I say I don't think so. We are diametrically opposed. I can never change you 'belief', if that was a 'precise' statement.

Regards & Play Well,
 
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ENGLISH! said:
You seem to very much contradict yourself. You say touch of center & then speak about what ever spin you want or is needed for the shot so long as it is with a precise tip placement.

I don't think you understand what CJ means by TOI because the intention is for the CB to come off of the OB with no spin.

Precision? No kidding. Center CB strike? I don't think so. I don't think anyone can put the center of a 13 mm tip on the center verticle axis of a cue ball 100% of the time.

You say you don't 'believe'. I say I don't think so. We are diametrically opposed. I can never change you 'belief', if that was a 'precise' statement.

Regards & Play Well,
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Let's agree to disagree. I only continued to reply because LAMas said I "knew" about the benefits of TOI (which I disagree with).

I'm not going to get into an aiming discussion.

Cheers,
Geoff
 
TSW said:
Let's agree to disagree. I only continued to reply because LAMas said I "knew" about the benefits of TOI (which I disagree with).

I'm not going to get into an aiming discussion.

Cheers,
Geoff
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Geoff,

That's good. But I'm not sure you fully understand CJ's TOI as it really is not an aiming system.

And...you don't need to understand it. If you're happy with where you are then all is fine, good, & well with you.

I hope you hit the center everytime you want to do so.

Regards,
 
TOI definitely helps me as before I started using it I had a tendency to line up to the right of center. I had noticed that a friend of mine, who shoots very straight, always seemed, to my eyesight, to be cueing slightly to the inside. On long straight shots I usually remember to use TOI and my pocketing avg has improved as have my stop shots. I am looking forward to getting CJ's DVD and fully incorporating TOI into my game. By the way my small epiphany came before CJ started posting. Consequently, I will probably be an easy convert.
 
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I guess what I don't understand is....if you can't hit center cb on a consistent basis...how are you going to consistently pick and hit the same amount of TOI on a consistent basis.

I have reference points for center axis...I am going to need to use those same reference points to find TOI...

Seems like it would be much easier to set up center CB and then (with a solid bridge hand) on the final stroke favor either TOI or TOO......which for many shots is exactly how I apply English......what am I missing.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android
 
BRKNRUN said:
I guess what I don't understand is....if you can't hit center cb on a consistent basis...how are you going to consistently pick and hit the same amount of TOI on a consistent basis.

I have reference points for center axis...I am going to need to use those same reference points to find TOI...

Seems like it would be much easier to set up center CB and then (with a solid bridge hand) on the final stroke favor either TOI or TOO......which for many shots is exactly how I apply English......what am I missing.


Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android
Click to expand...

I'll see if I can help.

1st. TOI is not about english spin. I've been shooting with english for 46 years since I was 13. With TOI you want the CB to come off of the OB with no spin. Normally a CB that is hit center would pickup some outside spin from hitting an OB on any cut angle. The bit of inside spin from the TOI hit on the CB offsets this picked up outside spin or at least that is the intention. That is why the CB seems to 'float' rather than run off, especially when hitting a rail.

Now as to pocketing balls while doing this, the ideal method would be to target the full hit side of the pocket for a center CB hit & then move the entire cue parallel to the inside just a touch & stroke straight on that parallel line. The CB will deflect/squirt to the outside & add a touch more cut onto the OB. The OB should go into the center of the pocket if done correctly. If the stroke is off & one hits center then the OB is pocketed as originally tageted into the full hit side of the pocket. If the stroke is off farther to the inside than was intended & the CB deflects/squirts more than intended the OB is pocketed into the thin hit side of the pocket.

The TOI & the 3 parts of the pocket go hand in hand. If need be one can even target the OB to mis the pocket on the full hit side & then pocket the ball into the full hit side or center of the pocket.

It is similiar to planning for the throw of english. You want the OB to be thrown toward the pocket not away from it. But with english the CB is spinning off of the OB. With TOI it is 'dead sliding' off of the OB.

Naturally the speed of the hit needs to be firm enough so the CB deflects/squirts & not soft enough for the bit of spin to take effect until it hits the OB.

If you are happy with how you are shooting then all, good, & well, for you. But to understand this technique & method makes it available should one ever choose to untilize it.

It is certainy in my tool box even if do not convert over to it as my base shot, but that is my intention when I have the time to devote & fine tune it.

I hope this helped.

Regards,
 
TSW said:
One of the challenges for a beginner is cueing accurately. When you first start playing off-handed, your muscle memory is like that of a beginner. This makes it hard to cue accurately. Your brain knows what it wants you to do but your muscles are struggling.

By focusing on a precise point on the cue ball, you are helping your muscles learn.

So yes, TOI can help in this situation. But it's physiological, not physical. Touch of outside or touch of follow or touch of draw or touch of center would do just as well.
Click to expand...

It is actually physical, in order to use TOI you have to hit a little firm, our friend just discovered that he shoots great when he use TOI , when you shoot a little firm there is always a tendency to follow through such that the CB actually have perfect role for those hits, with swerve out of the picture due to the firm hit, CB will go where intended, with TOI there will be not much squirt, the CB path does not change much, it will pocket balls, one might notice TOI will pocket them either center of pocket or a little over cut, where as with TOO will pocket them with slight under cut maybe at center at times. Similarly if no english was used the shooter will have similar results. The only problem if one happen to poke, or stun the shot, then english becomes an enemy to the shot, unless intended to hit that way.
 
leafs07 said:
<<<<<<<<<<<< believes this TOI is actually teaching most people to hit the true center of the cue ball for the first time :thumbup:
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Please see my response to Sloppy Pockets in the other thread. However if you have a 'belief' there is no point to a discussion.

You're starting to resemble someone.

Regards,
 
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whitewolf said:
My offhand shooting has improved by 800%.

I cannot play the length of the table shots yet, but playing on a half table I just started firing the balls into the pocket with no sweat. Heck, I can even draw the cueball because my stroke has loosened up with the gain in confidence. My pockets on my 9' Diamond table are 4.25" so it was tough to make shots consistently, until TOI opened my eyes again. I didn't change my stance or anything - balls just starting going in with alarming accuracy.

I am wondering if any of you TOI advocates have experienced this? :)
Click to expand...

I assume you're kidding.
 
TATE said:
I assume you're kidding.
Click to expand...

Actually, I wasn't kidding at all. Whereas I used to make 2 out of 10 shots, with TOI I am making 8 out of those 10 shots. Okay, I yield - that's 400 % (8/2).

I learned to shot off handed using the stroke trainer. An SL7 in APA 8ball, I could beat my wife 100% of the time at 8 ball, and she is an SL3. So I wasn't that bad to begin with.

No, I am not kidding you. Saying this tongue-in-cheek: maybe I am more talented than you.:grin-square:
 
whitewolf said:
Actually, I wasn't kidding at all. Whereas I used to make 2 out of 10 shots, with TOI I am making 8 out of those 10 shots. Okay, I yield - that's 400 % (8/2).

I learned to shot off handed using the stroke trainer. An SL7 in APA 8ball, I could beat my wife 100% of the time at 8 ball, and she is an SL3. So I wasn't that bad to begin with.

No, I am not kidding you. Saying this tongue-in-cheek: maybe I am more talented than you.:grin-square:
Click to expand...

There's no doubt you are more talented than me. Say Hi to Laura for me too.

Remember, if you center the light, you can probably get away with half-TOI.
 
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