Unteachable Students

Cuesblues,

I feel for ya man. Best of luck with yours!

Scott,

Well she's always been highly competitive from what she tells me. Included in her resume' is that she I also a tri-athlete so it tells me that she has the determination and could be disciplined enough to actually become fairly adept at handling a cue.

Obstinate indeed. I'll just have to wear her down.

Ride,

You bring something to mind again. Special acuity. Something I never considered but will certainly engage that upon her and see if part of the problem lies there but more than anything right now, it's the base fundamentals and bridges that seem to remain the main issues for now.

Right now my focus is on the fundamentals and bridging techniques.

This past Sunday while she was doing her own self prescribed drills, I managed to take quite a few short video clips with my iPhone and will review them with her soon.


I've had other students that when the lights start coming on, it is truly an awesome experience.
 
Six Shooter...I would substitute the word "inconsistent" as opposed to undesirable. Most people, even analytical ones, understand the concept of consistent performance, especially within the context of proposed competition. I'll be back in your area in January, and I'd be more than happy to stop by Triple 9's, or wherever you're playing, and spend a little time with her...no charge! Sometimes it's just a matter of hearing the same thing...but said a little differently by someone else! :grin:

One more thing...you have to try to "make it fun" for her. Play her, where she gets ball in hand on every shot, and make suggestions on how to move the CB around and set up for another shot. If she gets badly out of line, she can always take another b-i-h! Lastly...people who pay have more respect for the teacher. Start charging her, at least minimally. She can obviously afford it...AT LEAST table time! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Six Shooter said:
I will mention to her that she can keep the hook bridge but it will continue to produce undesirable outcomes and that it will limit what I can teach her followed by what limitations it will impose.
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Six Shooter said:
Cuesblues,

I feel for ya man. Best of luck with yours!

Scott,

Well she's always been highly competitive from what she tells me. Included in her resume' is that she I also a tri-athlete so it tells me that she has the determination and could be disciplined enough to actually become fairly adept at handling a cue.

Obstinate indeed. I'll just have to wear her down.

Ride,

You bring something to mind again. Special acuity. Something I never considered but will certainly engage that upon her and see if part of the problem lies there but more than anything right now, it's the base fundamentals and bridges that seem to remain the main issues for now.

Right now my focus is on the fundamentals and bridging techniques.

This past Sunday while she was doing her own self prescribed drills, I managed to take quite a few short video clips with my iPhone and will review them with her soon.


I've had other students that when the lights start coming on, it is truly an awesome experience.
Click to expand...

Hey I just thought of something.... you can direct her to some pro women players on YouTube and ask her to study their bridges. She won't find one with her bridge.
 
Scott Lee,

Inconsistent is very true in this case.

Unteachable might be too strong but I know I haven't quite figured out just how to relate it to her.

At first, I thought relating to her would be easy. We started with trying to find her a comfortable stance so I proposed the typical feet at about a 45 degree angle just to start with.

She gave me one of those "what do you mean?" looks. I said "Ok. You're retired law enforcement and I'm former law enforcement so here's a term you will easily understand. Set up in a modified Weaver stance."

She took to that like a fish to water. We started building and adapting from there and I believe she has finally found something that is comfortable enough to at least approach the table and set up.

Sometimes I tweak it a little when I see she's off balance, etc.

I actually do play with her because I learned early that she's only going to do about 20-30 minutes of working on anything, so once she acknowledges she's easy to play, we do a few hours.

I have suggested several times of her taking BIH for every shot. She didn't seem to care for that approach, so from there she wanted to play 8 ball, so I suggested she play by APA rules while I played with WSR/BCA rules. She didn't care for that either so I've mentioned to her that since I can't find a way that would help her, I asked her how she wanted to play.

She came back with wanting to play BCA rules so that's what we do. I just dog some shots so she has several opportunities to play and win.

That's a mighty generous offer you have made and it is deeply appreciated by me. I will tell her your offer when I see her again. You may want to go ahead and shave your head and spare pulling your hair out. LOL.

She currently has my mother drills but has yet to copy them and return them which speaks volumes to me.
 
FranCrimi said:
Hey I just thought of something.... you can direct her to some pro women players on YouTube and ask her to study their bridges. She won't find one with her bridge.
Click to expand...

That's a good idea Fran.

I've actually encouraged her to watch some you tube vids as well as come over to my apartment and watch some of the streams. She's yet to do either but I'll keep pressing. Little bits of pressure rather than the whole kit and kaboodle at once.

May even try to get her attend a tourney as a rail bird.
 
Un-teachable Students?

1. Those who don't want to learn anything they don't already know.
2. Those who have a closed mind to any opinion other than their own.
3. Those who are unwilling to practice what is taught.
 
dr9ball said:
Un-teachable Students?

1. Those who don't want to learn anything they don't already know.
2. Those who have a closed mind to any opinion other than their own.


3. Those who are unwilling to practice what is taught.
Click to expand...

Numbers 2 and 3 are exact fits.
 
Six Shooter said:
Numbers 2 and 3 are exact fits.
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(Sorry I don't know how to do a multiquote.)

Regarding numbers 2 and 3: I have found that this closed-minded thing that some people do.... well it's fear-based. If you can find a way to break through whatever is making them afraid, then you can reach them.

The unwillingness to practice thing has many possibilities. One is laziness, of course, but often it's lack of belief in themselves.... "Why practice? I'm terrible anyway. It won't help."
 
FranCrimi said:
(Sorry I don't know how to do a multiquote.)

Regarding numbers 2 and 3: I have found that this closed-minded thing that some people do.... well it's fear-based. If you can find a way to break through whatever is making them afraid, then you can reach them.

The unwillingness to practice thing has many possibilities. One is laziness, of course, but often it's lack of belief in themselves.... "Why practice? I'm terrible anyway. It won't help."
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Definitely could be fear based but as eager as she is to learn, I can't honestly state at the moment. She tends to really throw out a lot of mixed signals.

I do think she's trying do too much in her life so I can positively say it's not laziness but will admit that she does get discouraged, as we all tend to do, when things just don't seem to be coming together at a pace that we expect from ourselves.
 
Sounds like, from all your descriptions of her, that she's a "perfectionist". I meet LOTS of those in my travels. A perfectionist has unrealistic expectations, and most of them believe that they can learn something, to a perfunctory performance level, with little or no diligent, disciplined practice. It's just not true. As you know, it's not as much what you practice, but how you practice. You have to have realistic goals/expectations, and a means to measure your progress! :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Six Shooter said:
Definitely could be fear based but as eager as she is to learn, I can't honestly state at the moment. She tends to really throw out a lot of mixed signals.

I do think she's trying do too much in her life so I can positively say it's not laziness but will admit that she does get discouraged, as we all tend to do, when things just don't seem to be coming together at a pace that we expect from ourselves.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Sounds like, from all your descriptions of her, that she's a "perfectionist". I meet LOTS of those in my travels. A perfectionist has unrealistic expectations, and most of them believe that they can learn something, to a perfunctory performance level, with little or no diligent, disciplined practice. It's just not true. As you know, it's not as much what you practice, but how you practice. You have to have realistic goals/expectations, and a means to measure your progress! :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

For the most part, she is a perfectionist and doesn't understand that it won't come to her overnight.

Her overall goal is within the realms of reality, she just wants it now though I've expressed months perhaps years depending on her dedication.

She gets in practice as often as she can that fits into her overly busy life and I agree that it's not what but how and that's where part of our roadblock lies.

Even though I may be telling her and showing over and over again, she nods that she understands and tries her best but I don't think she does understand and is afraid to ask questions as well as afraid to admit she doesn't understand.
 
Students

I like the part of the book Zen Golf where they break down the different types of students as compared to cups.

Cup is upside down. Unable to accept anything.
Cup is right-side up but full of sand/dirt. Accepts information but is cloudy and unclear to them.
Cup is right side up but a whole in the bottom. No matter what information is given it goes in one ear and out the other.
Cup is right side up. Will to accept and retain information.

I believe I've have students from all these classifications.
1) Student wanting to get better but already acted like he knew everything and wouldn't listen or accept what I was teaching. These students are frustrating to teach because they come to you wanting to learn but are unwilling to let themself learn.
2) Student who would listen but already had excuses and reasons for everytime something went wrong, so to them it was all unclear information as to how/why things were going wrong.
3) Student who seemed to pay attention and listen but wouldn't practice or retain anything we worked on.
4) Student who listened and asked questions to better understand what I was teaching. Then they practiced until either they understood it or until they needed more instruction on why something wasn't working for them. These students progress quickly and are fun to teach.
 
RWojo,

Golf clap in your honor sir. Well put.

We can rule out #4 for sure with this particular student.

This student gives out a lot of mixed signals that
varies between #1 through #3. Leaning hard toward #3 mostly.

Seems (that's a subjective word) to pay attention and listen but often find her not practicing what I have taught her and doing her own thing or just not practicing what I have taught her in the correct way. Possibly fear of telling me that she didn't grasp what I have taught her and just goes about it the wrong way.
 
Six Shooter said:
RWojo,

Golf clap in your honor sir. Well put.

We can rule out #4 for sure with this particular student.

This student gives out a lot of mixed signals that
varies between #1 through #3. Leaning hard toward #3 mostly.

Seems (that's a subjective word) to pay attention and listen but often find her not practicing what I have taught her and doing her own thing or just not practicing what I have taught her in the correct way. Possibly fear of telling me that she didn't grasp what I have taught her and just goes about it the wrong way.
Click to expand...

You're not reaching her. It might be best if you were to recommend someone else for her to work with. Sometimes the teacher and student just don't click.
 
Six Shooter said:
RWojo,

Golf clap in your honor sir. Well put.

We can rule out #4 for sure with this particular student.

This student gives out a lot of mixed signals that
varies between #1 through #3. Leaning hard toward #3 mostly.

Seems (that's a subjective word) to pay attention and listen but often find her not practicing what I have taught her and doing her own thing or just not practicing what I have taught her in the correct way. Possibly fear of telling me that she didn't grasp what I have taught her and just goes about it the wrong way.
Click to expand...
It depends which model you have in your mind about her.

From your description I see she is a smart and creative person. She seeks her own ways of doing things rather than just following someone's directions. She has her opinion on how things shall be. She does not obey orders. I think that's great for learning! I think she can achieve a lot.

To be able to teach such person efficiently one shall embrace her strengths and leverage them. It is a completely different approach of engaging students, empowering them with ideas, facilitating/gently guiding rather commanding, allowing the student experience different ways and make conscious decisions and finally accept consequences of their actions so the student can learn in practice. Such student can surprise you one day. Well, of course if you find a key for that student's understanding of you.
 
Unteachable

My least favorite kind of student is the one who says they want to learn and improve. But they already think so highly of them self and they know everything already.

Even as an instructor, i am always going to be a student of the game. I know I can sometimes be the Tea Cup full of sand. I think I'm open to something but all previous information and experience distorts the lesson to be learned. If I could only go back to when I was first learning to play and focused on fundamentals and doing everything correctly. Then I think my game would be so much farther along then it is now.
 
exaggerate the change I am trying to make to speed up the process.

RWOJO said:
My least favorite kind of student is the one who says they want to learn and improve. But they already think so highly of them self and they know everything already.

Even as an instructor, i am always going to be a student of the game. I know I can sometimes be the Tea Cup full of sand. I think I'm open to something but all previous information and experience distorts the lesson to be learned. If I could only go back to when I was first learning to play and focused on fundamentals and doing everything correctly. Then I think my game would be so much farther along then it is now.
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You''re probably right, I had to make an over-haul on my game when I was first on the Pro Tour. I could tell that my stance wasn't as good as Earl's and Efren's, but I didn't know why......I got a lesson from a snooker coach in Toronto and I made a dedicated effort to change in 3 weeks. I learned a lot from that experience, especially how important it is to exaggerate the change I am trying to make to speed up the process. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Ken...Yes you did! We all learn/process information at different rates and in different ways. That's why understanding many different communication methods is so important as a teacher. The real work for the student comes after the lesson. All the instructor can do is present the information in a way the student can clearly understand, and help them set measurable goals. The student then has to put in the work on the table. I agree with Richard that we are all students of the game. I learn from my students every time I do a lesson or pool school.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Fenwick said:
What about, working with High-Functioning Dyslexic Adults? Tim Tebow, actress Whoopi Goldberg, CEO Richard Branson, singer Cher, Leonardo da Vinci, Steven Spielberg, Henry Winkler. This list could continue at length. Having been a trainer I dealt with all kinds of learners. Very, very slow to very fast. Sometimes I had to revert to kindergarten teaching methods. I listened to the student and let them tell me how to teach so they could learn. Scott Lee could attest I was slow on the up take but I got it in the end.
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