UPA Got it right
- Thread starter azhousepro
- Start date
Basketball and baseball is a favorite pastime of many. And fun to play on the weekends with friends but that does not make it just a game. They are sports just as any professional who puts in hours of training every day to excel at it will attest to. Ask Danny Diliberto an ex boxer and world champion straight pool player. As he said during the 2003 US Open on Accustats that pool is a sport.
buddha162 said:
well at least we agree on something.......
tonyc said:
I was at a business meeting in Chicago this weekend, and one of the speakers gave his definition of a "pro." He said a pro is someone who performs even when he doesn't feel like it, and nobody can tell the difference.
Thanks for the details, Tony.
Jeff Livingston
Well, it appears that good intentions have put another black eye on the game.
Seems a bit harsh to not only forfeit the match you gave up on but also the next match in the tournament (disqualified from that tournament) and then not be allowed to be in their next tournament at all.
Well, I hope Danny comes down to Florida and plays in the Florida Pro Tour when it starts up this year. At least he knows he will be paid there.
Jake
Seems a bit harsh to not only forfeit the match you gave up on but also the next match in the tournament (disqualified from that tournament) and then not be allowed to be in their next tournament at all.
Well, I hope Danny comes down to Florida and plays in the Florida Pro Tour when it starts up this year. At least he knows he will be paid there.
Jake
jjinfla said:
Strongly disagree. The only black eye to be considered here is the one that those who quit in the middle of matches in front of paying fans have placed on their sport. The UPA is hitting Harriman were he lives, and this is the kind of message the UPA could have and should have sent out when Jeremy Jones, Corey Deuel and Larry Nevel quit in the middle of matches earlier this season.
Of course, you have to feel a little sorry for Danny here, as the one who is being made an example of whiles others that committed the same infraction walked away unpunished, but there reality here is that UPA is taking a step in the direction of cleaning up its act.
Bravo to the UPA. I admire and respect the handling of this matter, and I think they have made a statement here that the players cannot and will not ignore. Good news for pool fans everywhere!
sjm said:
tap, tap, tap...........i concur
I do agree that Danny or any player shouldn't quit in the middle of a match but they aren't losing anything. In fact, they're probably saving money and that's what the bottom line is. $10,000 for first place? Give me a break! After expenses for the week or so, the savers that the players have, and then travel expenses to get to the next event, how much is left? ZERO DOLLARS!sjm said:
JAM said:
I am not trying to lesson the mental or physical aspects of playing pool at it highest levels by any means. However, when pool is compared to baseball, basketball and football, I look at the fundamental physical aspects of the game and pool doesn't require the physical demands as those other games do. And when you see guys like Danny Harriman come to some sort of realization or some revelation in the middle of some match, it just goes to show how much more mentally draining the state of pool is, playing pool and participating in pool really can be on a person(s) mental stress, especially on the professional level.
Imagine if there were millions of dollars involved in pool?
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Today pool is recognized in many countries as a sport. So much that it has been included in the Asian Olympics. Hopefully the World Olympics will soon include it as a sport as it has with Archery, pistol shooting, badminton and the likes. (Read: not the physical exertion as much as baseball, basketball, and football but still a sport!) Can you imagine an Olympic athlete folding up his gear and quitting before a contest has been concluded? You know what your response would be. I admire the Olympics or any sporting competition not because I yahoo for the winners but the guys who give their very best but come in 3rd or 4rth or last. Because they represent me and my aspirations. I might not be a world champ at my job and life but I will damn well try and never give up on myself.
Oh we all have our weak moments where we have to take an exit but if Danny could have talked with tournament officials and the fans we could understand. There should be an avenue of a dignified exit for physical or mental problems. However using as an excuse that you are bummed out for not being burnt by promoters from past events is laughable. Who hasnt been burnt by somebody in the past? Being an employer or friend etc. Thats no excuse in turning your back on a profession YOU CHOSE.
Ill say this for Danny Harriman. He is a wonderful player and a great talent. I hope he resolves his problems and comes back stronger. Perhaps this experience will make him stronger. Pool needs guys like him.
And Rude Dog I will not go against you as you have been a friend. But now is the time for pool players to think more of just the tournament winnings. Now is the time to attach yourself with productive sponsors and groups that will sponsor you. I think this is where the women are the most strong. Allison and The Black Widow are always out there as great representatives of the companies that back them. And in turn they get financial and moral support. Companies will put up your entry fees and put you on a perdiem. You in return work hard to sell their product. Any tournament win is gravy. Harriman has that potential. But he negates that potential by quitting.
Oh we all have our weak moments where we have to take an exit but if Danny could have talked with tournament officials and the fans we could understand. There should be an avenue of a dignified exit for physical or mental problems. However using as an excuse that you are bummed out for not being burnt by promoters from past events is laughable. Who hasnt been burnt by somebody in the past? Being an employer or friend etc. Thats no excuse in turning your back on a profession YOU CHOSE.
Ill say this for Danny Harriman. He is a wonderful player and a great talent. I hope he resolves his problems and comes back stronger. Perhaps this experience will make him stronger. Pool needs guys like him.
And Rude Dog I will not go against you as you have been a friend. But now is the time for pool players to think more of just the tournament winnings. Now is the time to attach yourself with productive sponsors and groups that will sponsor you. I think this is where the women are the most strong. Allison and The Black Widow are always out there as great representatives of the companies that back them. And in turn they get financial and moral support. Companies will put up your entry fees and put you on a perdiem. You in return work hard to sell their product. Any tournament win is gravy. Harriman has that potential. But he negates that potential by quitting.
Yobagua, I want to jump into the fray. 
I think Niels Feijen's country's Olympic committee sponsors him. Pool is so very popular in the Asian countries. Since it's bottom shelf in the U.S., I can't see it making the Olympics at any time soon. There isn't even ONE mention in the American print media about the Mosconi Cup. I believe this to be very telling about pool's status in the States.
Without hearing the nitty gritty details from Danny Harriman himself, it's kind of difficult to make suppositions about his decision-making process. Tony C. posted on Danny's behalf a very few words. Since that post, his words have been sort of examined and almost scrutinized in a small way.
I hate to say it, but if it happened to me or mine, I'd be pretty ticked off, and I'm not sure how I would handle it. It's been a long period of time since this incident occurred. I am baffled as to why it hasn't been resolved sooner (IMO). Remember, too, that Danny Harriman paid a $500 entry fee as well as incurred travel costs, lodging, food, et cetera, which could total a couple thousand dollars, depending on his lifestyle.
He shot his heart out in one of the biggest events in American pool, done good and made the money rounds, only to come home with empty pockets. For some pool players, these tournaments are their ONLY bread and butter. I'd be pretty bummed out about that myself.
So true, Yobagua! Problem is, the current stock of American pool players is diminishing in numbers, much like the buffalo in the days of the Wild West. They're a rare breed, the people who depend on it to earn a living by shooting in competitive venues. How many players showed up in Destin, Florida?
I gotta agree with you there about Allison Fisher and Jeanette Lee. Two great ambassadors for the sports, champion-level players, and getting to and from the tournaments isn't anywhere near as difficult a burden as it is for 98 percent of the other so-called professional pool players. Some cannot afford to attend every event available because of the huge expense in contrast with the low payouts that exist in pool today, and they are unable to keep up with the rest of their peers because of it. The rich get richer, and the poor beat feet!
The lot of sponsors that exist for pros to date are only pool-related industry members. They can only sponsor just so many players because, as we all know, it takes five-figures to keep up with the tournament trail today. If you look the current players who are sponsored, I'd say it's maybe 2 percent. In most "sports," most pros who are sponsored is a higher percent, and some are even on a salary, win or lose.
It is really expensive to play professional pool when you are not sponsored. One could easily expend $3,000 to $5,000 a month. Some of the players will group together to save funds on lodging, but it still stings the pocket book.
Only until he comes back and makes six balls on the break like he did on ESPN Zone in Baltimore and moves on to win a couple of big ones in resounding fashion. Everybody loves a winner.
I hope we haven't heard the last of Danny Harriman.
JAM
yobagua said:
I think Niels Feijen's country's Olympic committee sponsors him. Pool is so very popular in the Asian countries. Since it's bottom shelf in the U.S., I can't see it making the Olympics at any time soon. There isn't even ONE mention in the American print media about the Mosconi Cup. I believe this to be very telling about pool's status in the States.
yobagua said:
Without hearing the nitty gritty details from Danny Harriman himself, it's kind of difficult to make suppositions about his decision-making process. Tony C. posted on Danny's behalf a very few words. Since that post, his words have been sort of examined and almost scrutinized in a small way.
yobagua said:
I hate to say it, but if it happened to me or mine, I'd be pretty ticked off, and I'm not sure how I would handle it. It's been a long period of time since this incident occurred. I am baffled as to why it hasn't been resolved sooner (IMO). Remember, too, that Danny Harriman paid a $500 entry fee as well as incurred travel costs, lodging, food, et cetera, which could total a couple thousand dollars, depending on his lifestyle.
He shot his heart out in one of the biggest events in American pool, done good and made the money rounds, only to come home with empty pockets. For some pool players, these tournaments are their ONLY bread and butter. I'd be pretty bummed out about that myself.
yobagua said:
So true, Yobagua! Problem is, the current stock of American pool players is diminishing in numbers, much like the buffalo in the days of the Wild West. They're a rare breed, the people who depend on it to earn a living by shooting in competitive venues. How many players showed up in Destin, Florida?
yobagua said:
I gotta agree with you there about Allison Fisher and Jeanette Lee. Two great ambassadors for the sports, champion-level players, and getting to and from the tournaments isn't anywhere near as difficult a burden as it is for 98 percent of the other so-called professional pool players. Some cannot afford to attend every event available because of the huge expense in contrast with the low payouts that exist in pool today, and they are unable to keep up with the rest of their peers because of it. The rich get richer, and the poor beat feet!
yobagua said:
The lot of sponsors that exist for pros to date are only pool-related industry members. They can only sponsor just so many players because, as we all know, it takes five-figures to keep up with the tournament trail today. If you look the current players who are sponsored, I'd say it's maybe 2 percent. In most "sports," most pros who are sponsored is a higher percent, and some are even on a salary, win or lose.
It is really expensive to play professional pool when you are not sponsored. One could easily expend $3,000 to $5,000 a month. Some of the players will group together to save funds on lodging, but it still stings the pocket book.
yobagua said:
Only until he comes back and makes six balls on the break like he did on ESPN Zone in Baltimore and moves on to win a couple of big ones in resounding fashion. Everybody loves a winner.
I hope we haven't heard the last of Danny Harriman.
JAM
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So is Danny's beef about lack of payment from the US Open two years ago? There's got to be something deeper. If he were playing at the US Open and quit, I *maybe* could understand that. Here he is, a year and a half removed from that, and he quits the first UPA event of the year. Something else HAS to be going on. Was any money owed to him from this particular event? I wouldn't think so, since UPA events are guaranteed money, so there's got to be another reason. Maybe he really did feel 5-2 was too big a lead to come back from....
-djb
-djb
Hey JAM
Thank you for a well thought out and level headed response. Thinking about pool within the last 10 years. Pool has really come up from the days when the BCA was the only thing going. Even though the money is small there are a lot more opportunities. Remember when there were no magazines and now we have at least 3 major National mags. Remember when Brunswick was the only one making tables. Now we have a score of them.Theres the Joss tour, Peschauer, WPBA, UPA, Viking tour, great independent events like the Derby, Seniors tour, Reno, etc.
Every sports has its problems. Look at boxing. Only the top half of one percent make the big bucks. The rest pay for their own gym use, trainers, equipment, travel and get their butts kicked while doing it and have a short shelf life.
Pool has its great side to it too. Where else could a guy like Efren from a 3rd World country go from poverty to traveling the world and making a high 6 figure income. Or a Mike Massey who has worked so hard at his specialty to consistently be in demand and make a nice income from the recent interest in Artistic Pool. Or the English stars who have given up their snooker tour to make a good living in the States.
We just cant begrudge Pool and talk about how bad it is and how little the money is. If we want to be a professional in it we have to look at all the opportunities and take advantage of it. Sure its hard but everything else is.
I know Keith is disapointed in how the SKINS tourney turned out but to some $2000 for a couple days work isnt bad and many who did not know him are now introduced to him. Any National publicity would go a long way in selling that book of his when it comes out
In my late 20's I went out on the road producing a little childrens theater group. Playing in school auditoriums. It was tough. We all were making $79.00 a week and paying for our own gas and lunches and no medical insurance. We worked sick and hungry. 20 years later some of those members are making 6 figure incomes. It was something they wanted bad enough to go through all the hardship with and never gave up.
Thank you for a well thought out and level headed response. Thinking about pool within the last 10 years. Pool has really come up from the days when the BCA was the only thing going. Even though the money is small there are a lot more opportunities. Remember when there were no magazines and now we have at least 3 major National mags. Remember when Brunswick was the only one making tables. Now we have a score of them.Theres the Joss tour, Peschauer, WPBA, UPA, Viking tour, great independent events like the Derby, Seniors tour, Reno, etc.
Every sports has its problems. Look at boxing. Only the top half of one percent make the big bucks. The rest pay for their own gym use, trainers, equipment, travel and get their butts kicked while doing it and have a short shelf life.
Pool has its great side to it too. Where else could a guy like Efren from a 3rd World country go from poverty to traveling the world and making a high 6 figure income. Or a Mike Massey who has worked so hard at his specialty to consistently be in demand and make a nice income from the recent interest in Artistic Pool. Or the English stars who have given up their snooker tour to make a good living in the States.
We just cant begrudge Pool and talk about how bad it is and how little the money is. If we want to be a professional in it we have to look at all the opportunities and take advantage of it. Sure its hard but everything else is.
I know Keith is disapointed in how the SKINS tourney turned out but to some $2000 for a couple days work isnt bad and many who did not know him are now introduced to him. Any National publicity would go a long way in selling that book of his when it comes out
In my late 20's I went out on the road producing a little childrens theater group. Playing in school auditoriums. It was tough. We all were making $79.00 a week and paying for our own gas and lunches and no medical insurance. We worked sick and hungry. 20 years later some of those members are making 6 figure incomes. It was something they wanted bad enough to go through all the hardship with and never gave up.
Yobaqua,
You mention that Keith took home $2,000 from the skins game. Not bad. But I thought the players had to put up $5,000 to play in the game. Am I wrong? That would mean that Keith got to the final 12, made it on TV, and lost $3,000. Plus his other expenses. I must have the figures wrong.
And why are entry fees going up? Danny had to put up $500 to play in that UPA tournament? That seems a bit high. Especially when you have to place in the top half just to break even.
Maybe Danny was just doing the numbers and realizing that he was in a lose-lose sport and just said the hell with it. Probably a wise move.
Jake
You mention that Keith took home $2,000 from the skins game. Not bad. But I thought the players had to put up $5,000 to play in the game. Am I wrong? That would mean that Keith got to the final 12, made it on TV, and lost $3,000. Plus his other expenses. I must have the figures wrong.
And why are entry fees going up? Danny had to put up $500 to play in that UPA tournament? That seems a bit high. Especially when you have to place in the top half just to break even.
Maybe Danny was just doing the numbers and realizing that he was in a lose-lose sport and just said the hell with it. Probably a wise move.
Jake
yobagua said:
Yobagua, I hear ya', and what you say is true. However, the tournament payouts are EXACTLY THE SAME, if not less, than tournaments from the '70s, '80s, and '90s. Yet, the cost of living had at least quadrupled. A player has to come in third and fourth place just to break even in some venues. There can only be one winner.
I definitely agree with you about the regional tours. I think they are logistically desirable because they occur on weekends, and definitely the biggest bang for the buck. This is great for the employed pool player, and it is OPEN to players of all caliber.
yobagua said:
Yobagua, pool has been great to some, Efren from the Philippines where pool is the number-one-sport, snooker stars where the payouts are much higher than the States, and Mike Massey who I think is GREAT in artistic pool and competitive pool. He's a one-man show!
But I am referring to the current stock of American professional pool players. If you had to spend $3,000 to $5,000 each and every month to keep up to the tournament trail, you would not be able to hold down a 9-to-5 job. It is difficult to come up with the funding to attend events when it comes to professional play -- UNLESS you are sponsored or independently wealthy.
Name one American pool player who is fairly well off from his tournament winnings. The ones who did achieve championship level left the tournament scene to pursue another business because they know there is no money in playing competitive pool. I can name MANY American pool champions who are still competing and are struggling financially to make ends meet.
One touring pro mentioned to me a few months ago that if he had not come in second place in a major tournament, he was on his way to Florida to get a job helping the hurricane victims. He was going to leave pool for a short while in order to make some money. He was broke. You can't live off of your love of pool.
yobagua said:
I like your optimism, Yobagua. There aren't many opportunities, though, available to American pool players. There are only pool-related sponsors, and they can only sponsor so many players. Cuetec sponsors Allison and Earl. Falcon sponsors Karen Corr. For every one sponsored players, there are maybe 100 aspiring talented players who are unsponsored and have to come up with $3,000 to $5,000 a month in order to keep up with the tournament trail.
yobagua said:
Actually, Keith had a blast at the Skins tournament, even though he didn't cash in big. Each player there really enjoyed the experience. But just FYI, the tournament entry fee was $5,000, plus the cost of staying 3 nights at the Atlantic City Hilton Casino at a player's rate of $149 plus tax. Most of our food was comped. I have to say, though, out of all the tournaments I've been to with Keith, this, without a doubt, was the best one I've ever been to. BTW, six players in that Skins tournament sponsored themselves. The others were sponsored by pool industry members.
I do understand what you mean by having to work hard to get what you want, but in this pool world, it doesn't matter how hard you work, how much you practice, how many tournaments you attend each and every month. The expenses of attending tournaments far outweigh the rewards (IMO).
JAM
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JAM said:
right on jam. even if you do things like sleep in the car every now and then, which many players have done, and still do, from what some of them have told me. its still very expensive to get to the tournaments. if you're always on the road, and stay in a hotel most nights then one would have to make about a 100 a day playing pool just to GET BY. most hotels are in the 40 (dumps) to 79 (average) a night range. then you have to buy food. put the entry fee on top of that. then say you had a bad day the day before the tournament, and you got busted for a couple grand playing. you're playing the UPA championship in LA......well shit, now you have to place at least 5/6 to get close to even. ooops i forgot about gas, now you have to place 4th.
the average working joe makes what like 30 grand a year? probably less. it takes more than that just to break even for the average pro player. the fact that most of the tournaments that pay a decent amount start the middle or beginning of the week and last through the weekend makes it impossible for anyone with a job to play in more than a couple a year.
for most people to make a living in the pool business, you cant just play pool. take jeanette, she does all kinds of other things. luc salvas i believe owns a pool hall (maybe more i don't know) in canada. think he could make a living without it? even though he plays jam up.
and i'm not sure who said it, but 500 really isn't that high of an entry fee. every stop on the WPBA tour is 500 i believe, maybe more.
thanks
thanks
Hi Everyone,
Just want to say well done to Corey 1st for winning the title and also Danny Basavich who i think was the player of the tournament.
I class my self as a pro player and i aslo class this game as a sport.
When i originally posted Danny H did'nt no i had, When i told him, he thanked me and also told me to write the next message i posted.
He classes this game as a sport, but went on to say that he has been playing 13 years as a pro and it aint got him anywhere. He basically is not enjoying what he does and just like any job if your heart aint init for whatever reasons then you dont want go to work. I feel sad for Danny as he is a great player, However i think the punishment he recieved was the right one and he thinks the agrees.
The UPA are trying hard to pull this game forward, the problem is that players over here are not use to rules. Like or hate them someone needed to start somewhere, It may have been easier for the UPA if Charlie Williams was'nt the one to have started it. The fact of the matter is he stood his ground which offended peple even more. I think he did a great job and took a little to much crap for it. You have to have rules, people need to understand this is the only way the game can move forward and become professional.
I think if you look at the players who have played on the UPA this year, there are a lot of new ones well known road players, they are now trying to become pro's because it's just too tough on the road.
These are the guys if they stick together that will bring the game forward , they are the new breed of player. The difference now is they need to hustle in different ways, which is promoting themselves and the game of pool to get sponsors.
Its still a hustle just not a bad one.
I hope this sheds a little light on things,
Tony Crosby
Just want to say well done to Corey 1st for winning the title and also Danny Basavich who i think was the player of the tournament.
I class my self as a pro player and i aslo class this game as a sport.
When i originally posted Danny H did'nt no i had, When i told him, he thanked me and also told me to write the next message i posted.
He classes this game as a sport, but went on to say that he has been playing 13 years as a pro and it aint got him anywhere. He basically is not enjoying what he does and just like any job if your heart aint init for whatever reasons then you dont want go to work. I feel sad for Danny as he is a great player, However i think the punishment he recieved was the right one and he thinks the agrees.
The UPA are trying hard to pull this game forward, the problem is that players over here are not use to rules. Like or hate them someone needed to start somewhere, It may have been easier for the UPA if Charlie Williams was'nt the one to have started it. The fact of the matter is he stood his ground which offended peple even more. I think he did a great job and took a little to much crap for it. You have to have rules, people need to understand this is the only way the game can move forward and become professional.
I think if you look at the players who have played on the UPA this year, there are a lot of new ones well known road players, they are now trying to become pro's because it's just too tough on the road.
These are the guys if they stick together that will bring the game forward , they are the new breed of player. The difference now is they need to hustle in different ways, which is promoting themselves and the game of pool to get sponsors.
Its still a hustle just not a bad one.
I hope this sheds a little light on things,
Tony Crosby
tonyc said:
tap tap tap !!!!!!!!!!!!
Marketing oneself is hard work. And where pro pool is right now, a player MUST spend at least half of his time marketing himself. Jeanette does it as well as anyone, imho, and would be a good mentor to follow. Perhaps she could do a seminar on the subject at one of the tournaments?
Jeff Livingston