UPA Sanctioning - Q&A

[RunoutalloverU]

Whatever I reply to you, you will twist it around and make me look like a bad guy, like you did yesterday in another thread. You are not on my birthday cake list.

My secret is that I am old. When you get old, you can't sleep.

JAM

Your not that old, and im more of a pie guy myself, unless its confetti cake, then Ill be nice to get some of that.

 

[JAM]

See the BLUE writing in the quote for my replies.

That stinks, Mike. Now I have one more reason to not like the BCA.

This is a tragedy in the making, what the BCA is doing to the UPA.

Somebody needs to do something to stop it. I am going to have Keith call Harry P. in Washington State today to ask him for his opinion.

The BCA should not be allowed to operate willy nilly without consulting the UPA and its administrative members.

In fact, I think a move should be initiated to boycott everything associated with the BCA. Professional pool does just fine without the BCA's practically nonexistent presence on the American pool tournament trail.

JAM

 

[MikeJanis]

That stinks, Mike. Now I have one more reason to not like the BCA.

This is a tragedy in the making, what the BCA is doing to the UPA.

Somebody needs to do something to stop it. I am going to have Keith call Harry P. in Washington State today to ask him for his opinion.

The BCA should not be allowed to operate willy nilly without consulting the UPA and its administrative members.

In fact, I think a move should be initiated to boycott everything associated with the BCA. Professional pool does just fine without the BCA's practically nonexistent presence on the American pool tournament trail.

JAM

Jenny, you have to understand that the BCA is a self governing body and they own the rights to the WPA sanctioning/points. They only loaned it to the UPA and the BCA has every right do do anything with that they see fit. Don't waste your time. Its done!

As far as boycotting the BCA goes,,, I can't say I haven't thought about it but I am definately not in a position to recomend this. Heck, I am uncomfortable just mentioning it. The BCA does have its merits and they should not be discounted because they choose not to work with me or the UPA. They do have some standout programs but definately not many in the area of professional pool.

Frank, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[JB Cases]

One minor note.

The funds at the BCA's Generation 9 Ball Tournament will be guaranteed and paid out in full. There are 32 spots to fill and if they are not filled by UPA members then they will be filled by other players eager for the chance to play.

Whichever players attend that tournament will get the chance to be featured in the four (or two) extra hours of coverage that is being given to this tournament by ESPN.

While the players certainly have the right to boycott this event for whatever reasons they wish to they should consider that they are depriving their sponsors of the chance to be featured on television and exposure is the primary reason that sponsors support players.

I personally would not consider a player for sponsorship if they declined to go to an event where the prize money was guaranteed and the chance for exposure was great. Excepting of course family emergencies and such extenuating circumstances. Playing politics is not reason enough to screw your sponsor, especially in today's climate when sponsors are hard to come by.

Sterling Gaming and our suppliers have sponsored the Generation Pool 9-Ball event with a LOT - and I mean A LOT of dollars this year. We are the cue sponsor with FURY cues, the cloth sponsor with Milliken Super Pro cloth, the Hall of Fame sponsor with CueSight and Sterling.

It would be a true shame if this tournament were marred by politics when it has been one of the steadiest tournaments on the calendar for years and years.

Yes, we have a dog in the hunt as far as this event goes. A good portion of the money that will be paid to the players will have come from Sterling Gaming and brands like Fury Cues and Milliken Cloth.

The money is there for whichever players put politics aside and decide to play.

As for the rankings issues I have no comment on that. I guess that will be a point of contention since it does affect who can compete in certain overseas events. I hope that it is sorted out in a way that is win win for all concerned and I am saddened to hear that the notification was done though a press release. By all means the BCA owed the UPA the courtesy of discussions prior to this in order to try and come to some sort of resolution that did NOT immediately have people arming themselves for a fight.

 

[jason]

One thing for sure, the public has no say in this matter.

This will be handled by the UPA representatives and the UPA touring pros collectively as an organization.

What I think or anybody else thinks doesn't mean squat. The UPA has gotta do what it's gotta do to survive, and every step of the way is backed by the players collectively as a whole. I have not heard of any disgruntled UPA members in recent times. In fact, they are finally together as one unit. They need to be supported, more than ever now, against the big bad BCA who only cares about how fat its industry members can get, leaving American pros out in the pasture to starve.

JAM

I agree we need the UPA. They have done a lot correctly and are definitely trying to do the best for the players. It's the players who won't ban together to fight for their best interest. It's really still just everyone for themselves.

When a Union goes on strike, everyone suffers initially. But, it is in their best interest in the long run. If the players would trust the UPA to escrow the tournament money and boycott tournaments that don't, everything would be better for all the players in a very short time.

Where is the "brotherhood" of players? The UPA has opened the door. It's up to the players to walk in.

 

[JAM]

Jenny, I should also note that I hand delivered information to CW in 94 at the BCA Trade Show which he accepted on behalf of the UPA. I also stated to him at that time that I would like to find a way for us (Viking Tour / NUTS Program ) to work together with the UPA but I never heard anything back.

Gee, CW gets the green light to be the governing body of American professional pool from the BCA.

Soon thereafter, CW gets to be Brunswick representative. In his capacity as Brunswick representative, some unusual things happened, which I can't post on the public forum.

When the UPA ship began to sink, CW jumped ship and founded a dragon, seeking out female players with big sweat glands to sponsor. It doesn't matter that some of them can't run three balls in a row.

And let's not forget where the majority of the events are.

JAM

 

[MikeJanis]

Gee, CW gets the green light to be the governing body of American professional pool from the BCA.

Soon thereafter, CW gets to be Brunswick representative. In his capacity as Brunswick representative, some unusual things happened, which I can't post on the public forum.

When the UPA ship began to sink, CW jumped ship and founded a dragon, seeking out female players with big sweat glands to sponsor. It doesn't matter that some of them can't run three balls in a row.

And let's not forget where the majority of the events are.

JAM

Come on, give us the dirt.

 

[JAM]

Come on, give us the dirt.

You already know some of it. Think about it!

JAM

 

[JAM]

One minor note.

The funds at the BCA's Generation 9 Ball Tournament will be guaranteed and paid out in full. There are 32 spots to fill and if they are not filled by UPA members then they will be filled by other players eager for the chance to play.

Which subcontractor is running the tournament this year? I am curious.

When the 32 spots were not filled in the past, there was a so-called "waiting list." However, the waiting list names were not made public, and players were chosen behind the curtain as to who would be allowed to play. This happened in the past. I am not sure how it is handled today.

...Playing politics is not reason enough to screw your sponsor, especially in today's climate when sponsors are hard to come by.

John, I understand your stance in this matter.

Not that many players, unfortunately, have a sponsor. Hard to come by? The majority of the BCA's industry members don't seem to give a damn about professional pool. Where are the sponsors? How many of these industry members sponsor professional players?

What's the first-place prize for this event? Is it 15,000 once a year? That's a joke. It is embarassing to see this event on TV with this kind of prize money. No wonder nobody in America takes pool seriously. Its own industry members are dissing professional pool.

That said, Sterling is one of the rare exceptions when it comes to giving back to the American pool community. I have seen this company do many wonderful things for a lot of players, old and young, in the past decade. Bravo to Sterling and you, John!

JAM

 

[MikeJanis]

You already know some of it. Think about it!

JAM

And now,,,,,,
the rest of the story............

 

[Blackjack]

Greetings everyone,

First let me thank Mr. Howerton for the ability to post on azbilliards.com. As you may or may not know, this is my first time posting on any forum and I thank you for your gracious acceptance. Please know that I would request that you contact the UPA directly for questions or concerns, however, I am willing to field questions.

I hope this post provides clarity.

UPA Sanctioning Guidelines/Points of Fact:

1. Guaranteed prize money is and always has been at the top of our agenda.

2. Sanctioning guidelines are ultimately determined by our players. Players have not yet made prize fund in escrow a ?mandate? for UPA sanctioning. Until then, the UPA (players) will continue to deal with such issues. Please know that the UPA board is very much for this requirement. However, this is not yet the will of the players. Perhaps this will change in the future.

3. As President of the UPA, in regards to this specific event, I personally witnessed the account with the prize fund available. However, I reminded players and all other parties involved that this witnessing did not equal actual control of the monies.

4. When and if prize money is not paid, the administration of the UPA is left to doing what it can in order to obtain all prize money owed (within the bounds of what is both legal and ethical).

5. Currently it is the UPA's understanding that, Mr. Bobbit, is working diligently on making good to the players. I personally do my best to stay in contact on an hourly basis.

My personal feeling on the matter? A new promoter did not have the expertise of major tournament promotion and has found himself in a bad situation. I do know also that, Mr. Bobbit, had plans of future tournament promotion before this situation. This fact further illustrates,to myself, that he did not see this coming.

Lastly, the UPA is not required to pay missing prize fund as it known by the players that the UPA cannot be held accountable for something the association never had actual control of.

Players have been my personal friends for many years, and I as their president, I consider myself their primary servant.

If I can be of service to you please let me know. If any further posts by me are infrequent, I am sure you will understand in light of all that is taking place in our industry.

Respectfully,

Frank Alvarez III
UPA, President

Frank

This is David Sapolis. 3 years ago I spoke with you about forming a players association that would represent the players in these situations. You assured me at the time that a "players association" was not necessary, and IIRC, it was because the UPA had changed the sanctioning guidelines to avoid situations like this.

I'm a little confused because of several things that were brought up when I was trying to assist Danny Harriman in getting paid monies owed to him by Brady Behrman. There are contradictions in what was said then, and what is occurring now.

1) Were changes made when you took control of the UPA in the sanctioning guidelines (in reference to money being placed in escrow prior to the event) ? If so why?

2) Why is the escrow issue being decided by "the will of the players" ???

That makes no sense. The UPA leadership, yourself and "the board" have a duty to ensure that the players do not get stiffed as they have in the past. If the board is "very much in favor of this requirement" then hold a board session and put it up for a vote and pass it. Your statement basically says that players are voting it down - and we all know that is not the case.

I would also like to know how the players will be paid. To date, if we go back to 2005 - Danny and the other players have still not been paid by Brady - and after the last payment Brady made, you basically said you didn't want to discuss that issue with me anymore in our conversations. I respected that and never brought it up again to you, until now - because here we are again, and I know as well as you how difficult it will be to collect money from anybody.

As leaders in this game, we have a duty to pay the players. We have a duty to give 1000% to ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. I know Chuck Bobbit is doing his best by selling off personal property to raise the money to pay the players. I feel as if you should be operating in the same type of desperation mode as President of the UPA - working 24/7 to ensure that the players get the money they earned -even if it comes out of your won pocket (just like Jay Helfert has done in the past) and no other events should be held until the bills are paid for this one.

I ask these questions respectfully because you and I have been down this road this before, and I'm baffled that the UPA is back in this same situation.

In closing, I would like to say that a players organization of any kind would be very instrumental to represent the players in situations like this. Having the UPA represent them is a conflict of interest IMO. This organization will serve as a voice for the players, and can turn up the heat on the UPA and those that need to pay the players.

 

[JB Cases]

It does make you wonder what value the UPA brings to the table however when they sanction a tournament and it does not fill up.

Mike Janis is right when he says he approached Charlie Williams about the N.U.T.S. system.

In that system there would have been players from all over the USA earning paid spots to UPA events. The WPBA has used this sort of farm system through the regional tours for years to ensure that their events are full. Given the number of tours and tournaments going on all the time - not to mention the vast amount of weekly series tournaments on the local level, it is not inconceivable to imagine a world with ten or 12 professional events a year with full 128 man fields and guaranteed prize money. A full 64 spots could be filled with people who got that spot through a farm system.

I said this earlier, in order to fund a pro tour you need a broad base, or perhaps a solid foundation is a better term. That solid foundation exists due to the efforts of people like Mike Janis, Randy Goettlicher and John McChenseny and Robin Adair, Danny and Evelyn Dysart, Tommy Kennedy, Jose Burgos and every person who has started and maintains "tours". As well that base exists among the hundreds of thousands of league players in the USA.

It only remains to find a way to bring them together. The WPBA has done this admirably with their granting of spots to the regional tours. That is a guaranteed amount of money that the WPBA can count on for each tournament they stage, regardless of whether the player shows up to use it or not. And they have a list of players waiting to take any open spot.

I simply do not and can not understand why this is so hard for the men to do.

Here you have a successful model that works. Surely IF the women can fill a 64 player bracket this way then the men can fill a 128 player bracket every six weeks or so.

But I have to look at the Desert Dustoff and feel sad that only 60 players made up the field and from the looks of it some of those players are not UPA members but instead are local players. Without the local players how many UPA pros were in attendance? Had they used a similar system to the WPBA then I am positive that there would have been a waiting list to get into the tournament.

Now the UPA is dancing around the wording, and saying that their sanction does not mean the prize fund is guaranteed. They say that making sure the prize funds are guaranteed is an agenda item. Which makes me wonder then if the UPA membership body really has not got much faith in their sanction and thus was partially the reason for the low turnout for this tournament.

In fact I wonder if this position for the UPA works against independent promoters. So the UPA says they don't currently require a promoter to guarantee the money and "warns" the players that they are "gambling" if they attend a UPA sanctioned but not guaranteed event, yet makes sure that all players "know" that Dragon Promotions events are "safe". Thus players are faced with uncertainty helped in part by the UPA's failure to demand verification.

As a point of fact however it is pretty sad that the UPA would sanction a promoter who advertises his added money as Gauranteed when in fact it's not. This is a sad sad sad thing for the UPA to add it's stamp of approval publicly when the main point is not truly addressed. Then in private they warn the players that the tournament is NOT GUARANTEED thus ensuring less than a full field. At least this is my take on it.

Better would be to be inclusive and find a way to work with the regional tours and leagues to fill your tournaments with eager amateurs. The true PROS will quickly rise to the top and enjoy being fed by the thousands and thousands of hopefuls.

It works for Golf, it works for Baseball, it works for Tennis, and most importantly, it works for the WPBA.

Women hold up half the sky - chinese proverb. It's time that the men started to acknoweldge that they have done it right.

 

[JAM]

Mike Janis is right when he says he approached Charlie Williams about the N.U.T.S. system.

The answer to this one is easy, John.

...Women hold up half the sky - chinese proverb. It's time that the men started to acknoweldge that they have done it right.

Let's be frank, John. Many of the women players use sex to sell pool.

That said, Alison, Kelly, and Karen are champion-caliber players, no question about it, and none of them use "sex" as a vehicle to display their skill sets.

The UPA is struggling right now, but I don't think the BCA is the best choice to fix what is broken.

JAM

 

[JAM]

...As leaders in this game, we have a duty to pay the players...I ask these questions respectfully because you and I have been down this road this before, and I'm baffled that the UPA is back in this same situation....

Would you change your tune if the UPA took you on its administrative board as a UPA representative?

Actually, it would be a good move to have a non-player UPA representative. When I say non-player, I do not mean someone who cannot play. I mean someone who does not compete currently on the professional tournament trail.

Your expertise may complement the existing UPA administrative staff's capabilities. All of them, from what I can see, are currently playing pool. It would be good to have somebody on board with no interest in advancing in the ranking system.

In FACs (Federal Advisory Committees), it is mandatory for a liaison to be present at all meetings who is not affiliated with the Federal Government entity; a bridge person, if you will.

Food for thought for Frank!

JAM

 

[JB Cases]

Which subcontractor is running the tournament this year? I am curious.

When the 32 spots were not filled in the past, there was a so-called "waiting list." However, the waiting list names were not made public, and players were chosen behind the curtain as to who would be allowed to play. This happened in the past. I am not sure how it is handled today.




John, I understand your stance in this matter.

Not that many players, unfortunately, have a sponsor. Hard to come by? The majority of the BCA's industry members don't seem to give a damn about professional pool. Where are the sponsors? How many of these industry members sponsor professional players?

What's the first-place prize for this event? Is it 15,000 once a year? That's a joke. It is embarassing to see this event on TV with this kind of prize money. No wonder nobody in America takes pool seriously. Its own industry members are dissing professional pool.

That said, Sterling is one of the rare exceptions when it comes to giving back to the American pool community. I have seen this company do many wonderful things for a lot of players, old and young, in the past decade. Bravo to Sterling and you, John!

JAM

I don't know much about the nuts and bolts of the tournament - only that we are into it for a lot of money and we will be there in force representing. We are also going to be doing a lot locally in the next weeks to let the public in the Charlotte area know that a world class billiards event is taking place. We hope sincerely that we get the cooperation of local professional s to drum up local interest.

I also think the prize money is too low given the talent on display. However it is now and has always been guaranteed. As well it is the only tournament where men and women are treated equally in that they are paid equally. The fault that the prize money is low stems from the fact that the professionals in the United States are not in control of their destiny. That is systemic due to a variety of issues that have been outlined here more times than we can count. If the United States players want to use this tournament to draw a line in the sand then it's their choice. It will be filled by the WPA and Americans will see only foreign players as the face of men's professional pool.

IN the past the tournament is an invitational, previously however with certain invitations based on agreements with the UPA and WPBA's rank lists as I understand it. Other than that I don't know how the spots are filled. I seem to remember that the BCA tries to include many international players to make it an international event. This year however according to the website for the tournament http://www.generationpool.com/generation-pool-9-ball-championships.html
the field on the men's side is supposed to be filled by the UPA's top 32. This is however subject to change in light of the current rankings issues. :-(

For the record, I am FOR a strong player's organization. The players need an organization that is owned by them with the strength of the WTA or the PGA. It is my contention however that as long as there are obvious conflicts of interest, wishy-washy negotiations with promoters (see agenda vs. mandate), and a general sense of "me-first" among men's pros then there will never be such an organization.

How to make money? Frank Alvarez, have you ever made money giving exhibitions to corporate events based on your "UPA Pro Status"? Or were you able to garner those exhibition based on the fact that you are a good pool player and a nice guy? I think that being a "Pro" helped you. So why can't all the other Pro's band together and work out an exhibition and clinic schedule where a portion of the money directly funds the UPA's efforts?

In truth the membership of the UPA has tremendous earning power. I paid $20 once to play Earl Strickland one game and get a picture. I have seen people line up down the hall to pay $10 a game to play Stefano Pelinga. I have seen Mike Massey get $20 a person for as long as he wanted to play. But all this requires much more effort than the professionals are currently putting forth.

You know I rarely disagree with you, but I am going to disagree about the industry not caring for the professionals. Sponsoring a professional pool player is one of the hardest things to measure the return on investment for. The reason it is so hard to measure is that exposure is very sporadic when it comes to most professionals. They just don't have a consistent platform to perform on, and so they seem to be barely visible and thus of questionable value as advertising venues. That said, the industry does in fact spend a lot on professional sponsorship whether it is through individual sponsorship or event sponsorship. Event sponsorship is beneficial to a greater number of players and guarantees the sponsor some guarantee of visibility. But I think that you would agree that the vast majority of the money in United States professional pool - the IPT excluded - has come from within the billiard industry in some form or another.

The other thing is that many United States professional pool players do not have a business minded attitude or work ethic. This makes it very hard for a business to work with them. This is also primarily the fault of the system in which a person gets to the professional level by hustling and scuffling and surviving the underbelly of pool. This side of pool is romantic and exciting but it does not really prepare a player to roll up their sleeves and be a good partner to their sponsors. If 50% of the US players had Ralf Souquet's work ethic when it comes to finding and maintaining sponsor relationships then they would be very comfortable and secure. Not to say that Souquet is wealthy from his sponsorships but he certainly does not feel the burden of the nut to the extent that other high profile players do.

This doesn't come about because Ralf is the 999 time European champion, Double World Champion, and US Open Champion. It comes about because Ralf works HARD for his sponsors to promote their products and he goes everywhere and stays visible.

Well I could go on and on and on. Thankfully I am not a professional pool player and honestly I am always ashamed when some neophyte compares me to one. I am deeply saddened that people with such talent and heart are not rewarded accordingly. However the power to change it lies in their hands.

 

[JAM]

Well I could go on and on and on. Thankfully I am not a professional pool player and honestly I am always ashamed when some neophyte compares me to one. I am deeply saddened that people with such talent and heart are not rewarded accordingly. However the power to change it lies in their hands.

Nominate John Barton for President of the BCA.

John Barton for President of the BCA.

John Barton, President of the BCA.

You could really make a difference, John! You get it. You really do get it.

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

It does make you wonder what value the UPA brings to the table however when they sanction a tournament and it does not fill up.

Mike Janis is right when he says he approached Charlie Williams about the N.U.T.S. system.

In that system there would have been players from all over the USA earning paid spots to UPA events. The WPBA has used this sort of farm system through the regional tours for years to ensure that their events are full. Given the number of tours and tournaments going on all the time - not to mention the vast amount of weekly series tournaments on the local level, it is not inconceivable to imagine a world with ten or 12 professional events a year with full 128 man fields and guaranteed prize money. A full 64 spots could be filled with people who got that spot through a farm system.

I said this earlier, in order to fund a pro tour you need a broad base, or perhaps a solid foundation is a better term. That solid foundation exists due to the efforts of people like Mike Janis, Randy Goettlicher and John McChenseny and Robin Adair, Danny and Evelyn Dysart, Tommy Kennedy, Jose Burgos and every person who has started and maintains "tours". As well that base exists among the hundreds of thousands of league players in the USA.

It only remains to find a way to bring them together. The WPBA has done this admirably with their granting of spots to the regional tours. That is a guaranteed amount of money that the WPBA can count on for each tournament they stage, regardless of whether the player shows up to use it or not. And they have a list of players waiting to take any open spot.

I simply do not and can not understand why this is so hard for the men to do.

Here you have a successful model that works. Surely IF the women can fill a 64 player bracket this way then the men can fill a 128 player bracket every six weeks or so.

But I have to look at the Desert Dustoff and feel sad that only 60 players made up the field and from the looks of it some of those players are not UPA members but instead are local players. Without the local players how many UPA pros were in attendance? Had they used a similar system to the WPBA then I am positive that there would have been a waiting list to get into the tournament.

Now the UPA is dancing around the wording, and saying that their sanction does not mean the prize fund is guaranteed. They say that making sure the prize funds are guaranteed is an agenda item. Which makes me wonder then if the UPA membership body really has not got much faith in their sanction and thus was partially the reason for the low turnout for this tournament.

In fact I wonder if this position for the UPA works against independent promoters. So the UPA says they don't currently require a promoter to guarantee the money and "warns" the players that they are "gambling" if they attend a UPA sanctioned but not guaranteed event, yet makes sure that all players "know" that Dragon Promotions events are "safe". Thus players are faced with uncertainty helped in part by the UPA's failure to demand verification.

As a point of fact however it is pretty sad that the UPA would sanction a promoter who advertises his added money as Gauranteed when in fact it's not. This is a sad sad sad thing for the UPA to add it's stamp of approval publicly when the main point is not truly addressed. Then in private they warn the players that the tournament is NOT GUARANTEED thus ensuring less than a full field. At least this is my take on it.

Better would be to be inclusive and find a way to work with the regional tours and leagues to fill your tournaments with eager amateurs. The true PROS will quickly rise to the top and enjoy being fed by the thousands and thousands of hopefuls.

It works for Golf, it works for Baseball, it works for Tennis, and most importantly, it works for the WPBA.

Women hold up half the sky - chinese proverb. It's time that the men started to acknoweldge that they have done it right.

I agree with all you said. I said for the men to use the WPBA model years ago on here. It works fine and can be tweaked so the men don't use sex to sell pool. Johnnyt

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Question UPA President.

UPA President.

Has the UPA ever receieved any type of funds from the BCA?

Have any of the UPA players received any funds from the BCA for tournament appearences overseas?

 

[JAM]

UPA President.

Has the UPA ever receieved any type of funds from the BCA?

Have any of the UPA players received any funds from the BCA for tournament appearences overseas?

Hi, Tom. I can answer one of your inquiries based on what a UPA player told me when he was getting ready to attend the WPC.

The BCA gives the UPA player a check for about a thousand bucks to go to WPC each year. It doesn't cover all the expenses, but it helps.

JAM

 

[av84fun]

Nope and I never implied that either. I knew all the answers to my question except #1 before I posted them.

I just wanted to give Frank the opportunity to explain my question through his answers which he did so there would be no misconcepotions.

Gotcha...Just a suggestion though. If you are going to ask questions on other people's behalf...that you already know the answers to, you might want to indicate that is what you are doing.

Otherwise, you certainly did suggest that the UPA was not living up to a duty to guarantee prize money when, in fact, it had no such duty.

For example...

"Question #1
I want to know what happened to the Guaranteed Funds. My belief about the UPA in part was that they would not sanction an event unless they had verification about the funding for UPA sanctioned events. Isn't that in part what the Pros pay their membership fees for and why in part they agreed to be a UPA member and why the UPA was formed in the 1st place?"

Regards,
Jim