[UPDATED] APA complaint advice - My new-to-pool player went to a 7 in 7 matches (?!?!)

[imbillmoney]

He has been playing pool casually about two years, before that he hadn't played regularly.... ever.

He's been in a NAPA scotch doubles in-house money league for about 1 year and this is his first session in APA. Prior to this APA session he has no league experience outside of NAPA doubles (never played NAPA singles) He didn't even know the rules when he started NAPA/APA.

I've been playing APA 10-11 years and I've been a 6 for about 5-6 years. Been to Vegas, etc... I thought he'd be a 3/4 for 1-2 years but he went from a 3 to a 5 after his first APA match. His first match he beat another 3 in a hill-hill race with a lot of innings, why did he jump two skill levels??? I lived with it and figured he'd go back down to a 4 but in 3-4 weeks he was a 6! This Tuesday he played his 7th ever APA match and was beat by another 6 with a score of 2-5 and they moved him to a 7! He had his first 8 on the break in that match (total fluke) and he's never had a break and run.

I had already kicked him off my team/found him a new team (when this session is over) when he moved to a 6 and just explained we don't have numbers for you but I found you a team with old APA veterans that I trust and you'll get to play more week to week

Now he's an undesirable teammate as a 7 that should arguably be ranked as a strong 4/weak 5.

I'm going to email the league operators and vouch for him that he's being fucked over and he's not even on my team. There is nothing for me to gain by trying to get his rank corrected I'm just at a loss for words and I feel bad for him!

Help!

UPDATE 8-30-21

Thanks for a lot of y'all's input!

LO's have reviewed his 7 matches and found errors in two but the only one that really matters is the match where he lost 2-5 to a SL6 and then made him jump to a SL7 after his loss. They inputted the innings as 1 instead of 19. They apologized and his skill level has been corrected back to SL6 (I still say he'll go back down to a SL5 but its easier to go back down from a SL6 instead of a SL7!

Thank you @APAOperator member for the advice of not saying he was being fucked but to ask for them to look for errors!

 

[imbillmoney]

Any advice for what I say to the league operators?

 

[Ģüśţāṿ]

Explain to them exactly what you said above and they'll review it. It certainly could be an error, losing and still going up is pretty odd, especially if the inning count is high.

 

[dardusm]

Any advice for what I say to the league operators?

I would have talked to the league operator when he went from a 6 to a 7. There is no justification for that unless someone complained and the league operator manually moved him to a 7. Check to see if he has a fargo rating, I'm guessing not if he doesn't play but maybe he is a road player in hiding

 

[buckshotshoey]

See if this helps to make sense of it....
From Dr Dave's website....

APA Equalizer Handicapping System - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the APA Equalizer handicapping system.

billiards.colostate.edu

After you read this, you will see that it's the software that in deciding handicap. Yes, the league operator can move handicaps up and down, but they have to come up with a good reason to override the software.

As you can see, the handicap is not only based on innings, but win percentage as well. And it uses your best 10 games of the last 20 played. It is very hard to move down in handicap with over a 50% win percentage.

 

[CGM]

Someone that had stroke with the LO had to have complained about his skill level not being high enough. Unless someone marked a defense for every miss, there is no justification for someone with high inning matches moving up that high. The sad reality is that it is very difficult to move down skill level in APA.

 

[Tom1234]

I had already kicked him off my team/found him a new team (when this session is over) when he moved to a 6 and just explained we don't have numbers for you but I found you a team with old APA veterans that I trust and you'll get to play more week to week

Now he's an undesirable teammate as a 7 that should arguably be ranked as a strong 4/weak 5.

LOs make more money with more teams. In over 20 years of playing APA, I’ve seen hcps raised to the point where teams had to break up. LO hoping he will start a new team with seven lower hcp players. This doesn’t always happen, but you need to keep this in mind while searching for an answer.

 

[libtrucker]

I would check his player number, and see if it is a new number. I have the same name as my Dad, and know of another player locally with the same name, and when the LO puts the scores in, he has been known to mix them up. The other Jim is a lower skill level than I and was complaining that he would loose a match and his skill level would jump up. The league op was accidentally putting MY scores on HIS player number.

So I stopped putting my name on the scoresheet and would write my player number in BIG NUMBERS where the name goes, and the LO never messed it up again. Problem solved....

 

[buckshotshoey]

Someone that had stroke with the LO had to have complained about his skill level not being high enough. Unless someone marked a defense for every miss, there is no justification for someone with high inning matches moving up that high. The sad reality is that it is very difficult to move down skill level in APA.

That's not correct. It has nothing to do with high inning matches. The system only recognizes games. I can have a high inning match, but one or two of those games may be very low. Those one or two games could end up being part of my best 10 out of 20.

If you win the match, it doesn't matter how many innings it takes to do it. You end up with an applied score based on your current handicap and your win percentage. Read the link I provided above. You will understand.

LOs make more money with more teams. In over 20 years of playing APA, I’ve seen hcps raised to the point where teams had to break up. LO hoping he will start a new team with seven lower hcp players. This doesn’t always happen, but you need to keep this in mind while searching for an answer.

So it is the 23 rule you have a problem with? Okay... Let's raise that to 30. Then you, me, and everybody else would be bitching because some teams are stacked with all sixes and sevens. The one thing this league is not short of is bitchers and whiners.

I know of no League operator that would arbitrarily move a player up to a seven for no reason. If a player is to be raised, it goes through the local handicap advisory committee... which is made up of the better players from the league area. Anyone who is raised in handicap without using the scoring system goes through this committee. And their identities are kept secret for a good reason. You can make a request to your league operator to be part of this committee if you like.

The APA scoring system is based on your best 10 games out of your last 20. It is common for newer shooters to move up and down based on their win percentage. The handicap system used makes it virtually impossible for someone above a 50% winning percentage to go down in handicap.

The op said his player had no break and run. I moved up to a 6, and only had one lifetime APA break and run. The other thing the op didn't mention is what was his win percentage? If he was winning 90% of the time, it does not matter how many innings it is. He's going to move up. My guess is every time he moved up in skill level, he kept winning. That goes a long way to explain a lot of it.

 

[APA Operator]

Any advice for what I say to the league operators?

I'll tell you what you don't say. You don't say he's being fucked. That will get your email flushed without a second look. Most likely there's nothing the LO can do, except check for input errors, like inputting a 12 instead of a 1 for defensive shots (fat fingers) or scoresheet errors, like the team putting the wrong player number down and him getting credit for a match someone else played. I would probably approach it from that angle, mention that the guy's skill level doesn't seem to follow his performance and ask the LO to look back and see if your team is making some mistake like using the wrong player number on the scoresheet (and mention that the member is new this session, sometimes we find someone with the same name and assume it's the same person, the LO should be checking that but I can't speak for others). Make the LO want to investigate. It's entirely possible that the LO will reply that nothing's wrong and he just has to give it time. Some people, when new, are rated too high and some too low, it's just the result of the small sample size.

 

[whammo57]

it's how the secret algorithm works............ we had a new player..... he was a 3.......... beat a 6 in 4 innings.......... he was a 7 the next week.......................... it happens.

 

[chefjeff]

Join another league.


Jeff Livingston

 

[hang-the-9]

it's how the secret algorithm works............ we had a new player..... he was a 3.......... beat a 6 in 4 innings.......... he was a 7 the next week.......................... it happens.

But if someone was really a 3, there is no way he would win in 4 turns at the table, especially with APA point scoring. No one is that lucky to run out that many balls in a match as a 3. Looks like a 3 vs a 6 needs 19 points to beat them, that is almost 5 balls per inning. Well over what a 3 can do, even on a good day. Maybe they see he shot at the 5 balls an inning average which is what the computer states a 7 should be able to do. So now he's a 7.

In the original issue, it almost sounds like someone is entering the scores wrong, but with two score keepers in each match on either team, no idea how that can happen so often.

I always maintain that in leagues the only rank you can trust is the maximum one. Every other one has way too many issues, not the least of which is sandbagging, but it can also be constant fluctuations. A guy is a 7 one week, then a 6 another, or a 4 then a 6, then a 5. I mean if a guy can play at a 6 level, and that level is established, that is what it should be. A 5 that shoots good enough to be moved to a 6 should stay a 6 unless they lose use of an arm or an eye or something.

 

[surffisher2a]

That's not correct. It has nothing to do with high inning matches. The system only recognizes games. I can have a high inning match, but one or two of those games may be very low. Those one or two games could end up being part of my best 10 out of 20.

I can 100% assure you that the APA scoring system is highly dependent on inning count and defensive shots that are marked on the scoresheet. Win % has a little bit to do with it, but your rank is really based off your inning count, esp in matches you win. a SL3 can play another SL3 every week and win every match but have 30 innings and they won't be raised up. However that same 3 can play those same matches and win in 10 innings every week, they will move up in rank fairly quickly.

 

[KRJ]

I'll tell you what you don't say. You don't say he's being fucked. That will get your email flushed without a second look. Most likely there's nothing the LO can do, except check for input errors, like inputting a 12 instead of a 1 for defensive shots (fat fingers) or scoresheet errors, like the team putting the wrong player number down and him getting credit for a match someone else played. I would probably approach it from that angle, mention that the guy's skill level doesn't seem to follow his performance and ask the LO to look back and see if your team is making some mistake like using the wrong player number on the scoresheet (and mention that the member is new this session, sometimes we find someone with the same name and assume it's the same person, the LO should be checking that but I can't speak for others). Make the LO want to investigate. It's entirely possible that the LO will reply that nothing's wrong and he just has to give it time. Some people, when new, are rated too high and some too low, it's just the result of the small sample size.

Small sample size. LMAO..

How in the world do you get beat by a 6 and bumped up to a 7. I mean, even if he beat the 6 he would not get bumped up that fast. Geez.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I can 100% assure you that the APA scoring system is highly dependent on inning count and defensive shots that are marked on the scoresheet. Win % has a little bit to do with it, but your rank is really based off your inning count, esp in matches you win. a SL3 can play another SL3 every week and win every match but have 30 innings and they won't be raised up. However that same 3 can play those same matches and win in 10 innings every week, they will move up in rank fairly quickly.

Yes and No. What you said was total Innings per match. It does not work that way. Edit..Its an average of innings of individual games that you won that count. Your handicap is based on 10 of your best games in the last 20. Read the post I put up.

Your example does not hold water. A three that wins 90 or a hundred percent of the time gets a 5.1 innings per game (if they win the match) in the scoring system no matter how many innings they actually have. It's called an "applied score" . It's the part of the scoring system the APA does not want you to know about. Again, read!

And again if you read very carefully, win percentage has a huge affect on the outcome of your handicap.

 

[BarTableMan]

Per buckshotshoeyer's last post:​

This is absolutely true. The winner of an APA match gets applied innings based on their winning percentage. A winning player can have 20 innings a game...but that's not what goes into the system for their score.

Hang-the-9 comment: "A 5 that shoots good enough to be moved to a 6 should stay a 6 unless they lose use of an arm or an eye or something." Yep.

 

[buckshotshoey]

But if someone was really a 3, there is no way he would win in 4 turns at the table, especially with APA point scoring. No one is that lucky to run out that many balls in a match as a 3. Looks like a 3 vs a 6 needs 19 points to beat them, that is almost 5 balls per inning. Well over what a 3 can do, even on a good day. Maybe they see he shot at the 5 balls an inning average which is what the computer states a 7 should be able to do. So now he's a 7.

In the original issue, it almost sounds like someone is entering the scores wrong, but with two score keepers in each match on either team, no idea how that can happen so often.

I always maintain that in leagues the only rank you can trust is the maximum one. Every other one has way too many issues, not the least of which is sandbagging, but it can also be constant fluctuations. A guy is a 7 one week, then a 6 another, or a 4 then a 6, then a 5. I mean if a guy can play at a 6 level, and that level is established, that is what it should be. A 5 that shoots good enough to be moved to a 6 should stay a 6 unless they lose use of an arm or an eye or something.

He said new player. All new men start as a 4. Women start as a 3. If they win their first match, they stay at that handicap. Lose, move down one. Usually though they have experience in a different league. But I believe the new player is supposed to disclose this and what handicap they were in that league.

That player had one match, and played as well as a 7. So the algorithm moved him to a 7 because there was only a two games won sample.

RANGE SKILL LEVEL
0.00 – 2.00 7
2.01 – 3.00. 6
3.01 – 4.00 5
4.01 – 5.00 4
5.01 – 7.00 3
7.01 – 10.00 2

Best scores (innings per game)
1 score: That’s your average.
2 scores: Average the 2.
3 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
4 scores: Average the best 2 scores.

Since he won, I can only assume he did it in 2 games, and had no losses. But even if he won 2 and lost 2, it's the best 2 scores that count as shown above^.

As he plays more, the average will stabilize as he gets to the best 10 of 20 games.

I've got to give kudos to the guy though. He didnt sandbag.

 

[The_JV]

My wife just won the her CPA (APA) league night MVP award for the 2/3 SL. She started as a 2, still remains a 2, and has a points per match average of ~2.4. Not sure on the inning average if there is such a thing.

I'm a 7/9. I could dump an entire season of matches and I'll guarentee my SL will not drop a single digit.

The one thing I learnt about the APA is this. There's 'math', 'opinion', and 'reality'. The first two will override each other dependant on LO mood. The third has no effect on the first two. No combination of those three things are ever used in tandem when determining a player's SL. I don't care what the brochure says.

 

[lorider]

I think apa operator pretty much answered the op's question.

As for the rest of the comments ? Here is my take based on 12 years in apa so far. 1,070 matches in 8 ball and 892 matches in 9 ball.

I was elected to be a captain my second session in apa and have been a captain continuously since then on as many as 3 teams a week. Cut it down to currently one team...just got to be too much.

Not going to lie....the first 2 years in apa i was one of those who worried about other peoples handicaps and did my share of complaining to the lo....to no avail except for one player that was obviously sandbagging and the lo agreed.

Due to usually keeping score and watching matches to see if a time out was needed i believe i became pretty astute at judging peoples level of play.

Over time i noticed that almost every one that i thought should be raised was raised...albeit not as fast as i thought they should have. So i started realizing that the system does work....as long as the scoresheets are properly marked ...which i am pretty anal about with all my players that help keep score.

I can say that i have never seen anyone raised that i thought did not deserve it. Do people have nihhts where they play well above their handicap ? Yea it happens. I have a 3 thats been a 3 for 10 years do something i have never done. Break and run 9 ball on a 9 foot table. Anyone watching that match that night would have swore she was a 5 or 6. The problem is they have not watched the other 900 and 99 matches where she cant run 2 balls.

So i decided to just not worry about anyones handicap and and let the system do its job.

Now this is just my opinion and may be way off base but i dont believe your win / loss record affects your handicap as much as how you win or lose...in effect innings and safes.

Take me for example.

A 5 in 8 ball and hover around 50 % every session with a lifetime of 51 % over 1,070 matches. Last session i played amazing with a 11 - 1 record...91 % and am still a 5.

A 6 in 9 ball. 22 % record last session. 2 wins 9 losses. The previous session was a 9 -19 record for 33% and am still a 6. I have a 50 % lifetime record though with 892 matches.

So if win / loss played as much of a factor as most people think i would have been raised in 8 ball and lowered in 9 ball ...especially after 2 really sucky sessions.

Tell you right now...they will never lower me in 9 ball. It aint gonna happen because i am capable of playing at that level regardless of my win / loss record.

Would not be surprised if i was raised in 8 ball but i really dont see that happening either based on how i win. Bunch of innings lol.