USA vs Russia 9 Ball Money Match

Tin Man said:
JB may move well, but Fedor is the best jumper in the world. He has made that into such a huge weapon I would call it a push at best on the moving game.
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I agree with nearly all of your post, but not with this part.

The moves game is a clear weakness for Gorst, and I've not seen too much development in this area in the last few years. To be honest, if Fedor moved as well as Justin, he would be in the conversation with JL Chang, Josh Filler and SVB for best 9-ball player in the world, but, despite his world title, he's not in my top 10 yet (JL Chang, Filler, SVB, Shaw, Orcullo, Little Ko, Zheng, Raga, Wu Jiaqing, Biado). I consider Fedor to be the straightest shooter in the world, but it is the moves game that has held him back. The moves game includes a lot more than getting out of snookers, and Fedor's defensive design and safety play are suspect and his use of two way shots and downside management aren't well developed. Yes, Fedor jumps very well, but Bergman is a much stronger kicker than Fedor. I'd also rate Justin as far superior in tactical design elements such as pushouts and choosing between offense and defense. I'd further give Justin the edge in speed control and finesse. Justin's edge in the moves game is gigantic, but I don't think it will be nearly enough, because I don't think that enough racks will come down to the moves game. Justin is, by far, the best tactical pool player in the US today, and his moves game may just be top 10 in the world. His might just be the best tactical game we've seen from an American player since Nick Varner.

I see this match as about 100-82 favor of Gorst. Justin could possibly win it if it the match proves to be a grind, but it's hard to see it going that way. It should be a shootout, and it's awfully tough to outshoot Fedor. I don't see nine on the spot as something that will hold Fedor back that much. You're 100% right in noting that 4" pockets and slow cloth would neutralize some of Fedor's advantage.

PS On a side note, Albin Ouschan and Ko Pin Yi, in my opinion, are better jumpers than Fedor, and Jayson Shaw is Fedor's equal as a jumper.
 
sjm said:
I agree with nearly all of your post, but not with this part.

The moves game is a clear weakness for Gorst, and I've not seen too much development in this area in the last few years. To be honest, if Fedor moved as well as Justin, he would be in the conversation with JL Chang, Josh Filler and SVB for best 9-ball player in the world, but, despite his world title, he's not in my top 10 yet (JL Chang, Filler, SVB, Shaw, Orcullo, Little Ko, Zheng, Raga, Wu Jiaqing, Biado). I consider Fedor to be the straightest shooter in the world, but it is the moves game that has held him back. The moves game includes a lot more than getting out of snookers, and Fedor's defensive design and safety play are suspect and his use of two way shots and downside management aren't well developed. Yes, Fedor jumps very well, but Bergman is a much stronger kicker than Fedor. I'd also rate Justin as far superior in tactical design elements such as pushouts and choosing between offense and defense. I'd further give Justin the edge in speed control and finesse. Justin's edge in the moves game is gigantic, but I don't think it will be nearly enough, because I don't think that enough racks will come down to the moves game. Justin is, by far, the best tactical pool player in the US today, and his moves game may just be top 10 in the world. His might just be the best tactical game we've seen from an American player since Nick Varner.

I see this match as about 100-82 favor of Gorst. Justin could possibly win it if it the match proves to be a grind, but it's hard to see it going that way. It should be a shootout, and it's awfully tough to outshoot Fedor. I don't see nine on the spot as something that will hold Fedor back that much. You're 100% right in noting that 4" pockets and slow cloth would neutralize some of Fedor's advantage.

PS On a side note, Albin Ouschan and Ko Pin Yi, in my opinion, are better jumpers than Fedor, and Jayson Shaw is Fedor's equal as a jumper.
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We are certainly in huge trouble having to face Filler and Gorst for the next 20+ Mosconi Cups.
 
Rocket354 said:
On the break, total balls pocketed + balls crossing headstring >= 3

This link tells all.
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The rule seems to stipulate 3 balls must be involved but the same line goes on to say "..., or a combination of both." leaving open the ambiguity of balls going into the back pockets. One in a back pocket would arguably require only another ball touching the string. The language should specifically forbid this outcome or allow it.
 
straightline said:
The rule seems to stipulate 3 balls must be involved but the same line goes on to say "..., or a combination of both." leaving open the ambiguity of balls going into the back pockets. One in a back pocket would arguably require only another ball touching the string. The language should specifically forbid this outcome or allow it.
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Tell um, damn!!!!
 
spartan said:
10 games sounds like bargain considering Gorst thrashed de luna 100-67 (%wise even bigger than SVB thrashing Orcullo 120-85) and de luna is about same Fargo as Justin :D
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It's the way he goes about what he does. Ya Carl, we all know you like to bet high with everyone and take ridiculous spots in games. How about offering a bet like what they are playing for instead of 5x what they are playing for.
 
sjm said:
I agree with nearly all of your post, but not with this part.

The moves game is a clear weakness for Gorst, and I've not seen too much development in this area in the last few years. To be honest, if Fedor moved as well as Justin, he would be in the conversation with JL Chang, Josh Filler and SVB for best 9-ball player in the world, but, despite his world title, he's not in my top 10 yet (JL Chang, Filler, SVB, Shaw, Orcullo, Little Ko, Zheng, Raga, Wu Jiaqing, Biado). I consider Fedor to be the straightest shooter in the world, but it is the moves game that has held him back. The moves game includes a lot more than getting out of snookers, and Fedor's defensive design and safety play are suspect and his use of two way shots and downside management aren't well developed. Yes, Fedor jumps very well, but Bergman is a much stronger kicker than Fedor. I'd also rate Justin as far superior in tactical design elements such as pushouts and choosing between offense and defense. I'd further give Justin the edge in speed control and finesse. Justin's edge in the moves game is gigantic, but I don't think it will be nearly enough, because I don't think that enough racks will come down to the moves game. Justin is, by far, the best tactical pool player in the US today, and his moves game may just be top 10 in the world. His might just be the best tactical game we've seen from an American player since Nick Varner.

I see this match as about 100-82 favor of Gorst. Justin could possibly win it if it the match proves to be a grind, but it's hard to see it going that way. It should be a shootout, and it's awfully tough to outshoot Fedor. I don't see nine on the spot as something that will hold Fedor back that much. You're 100% right in noting that 4" pockets and slow cloth would neutralize some of Fedor's advantage.

PS On a side note, Albin Ouschan and Ko Pin Yi, in my opinion, are better jumpers than Fedor, and Jayson Shaw is Fedor's equal as a jumper.
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Thanks SJM. I probably underestimated Justin's moving game and didn't realize how leaky Fedor's was. I'll concede a moving edge to Justin and learn something from this exchange.

As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!




Check out these timestamps: Time: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37,


 
Tin Man said:
Thanks SJM. I probably underestimated Justin's moving game and didn't realize how leaky Fedor's was. I'll concede a moving edge to Justin and learn something from this exchange.

As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!




Check out these timestamps: Time: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37,


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Tin, that is absolutely incredible!!!!! The one thing I would like to see is how he jumps with the object ball closer to the cue ball. If you notice he is hitting all of these without any english. Closer jumps will make a much tougher chance for deviation of the cueball.

It could very well be that he is the best jumper period, or the best jumper with length.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks SJM. I probably underestimated Justin's moving game and didn't realize how leaky Fedor's was. I'll concede a moving edge to Justin and learn something from this exchange.

As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!




Check out these timestamps: Time: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37,


Click to expand...
I really liked the 11:17 jump because he had to get up and down very quickly.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks SJM. I probably underestimated Justin's moving game and didn't realize how leaky Fedor's was. I'll concede a moving edge to Justin and learn something from this exchange.

As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!
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My turn to learn. Although I already rated Fedor's jumping as very elite, this is really quite remarkable.

My assessments of Ko Pin Yi and Albin Ouschan are based only on what I've seen them do in competition (perhaps my presence inspires them in the jump game, LOL) over the years, but I suspect both would be hard pressed to match the performance of Fedor here. Thanks for sharing. I'll be keeping a closer eye on this part of Gorst's game. Perhaps Fedor is the world's best in this part of the game after all.

Come to think of it, Team Europe 2020 at the Mosconi Cup, which included Fedor Gorst, Albin Ouschan and Jayson Shaw was probably the best team ever assembled in the jumping department. I'm comforted by the fact that they won't be able to add Ko Pin Yi to their squad, LOL. Pushing out to a jump shot is dangerous fare against all four of these superstars of the game in somewhat the same way that pushing into a safety often backfires against Alex Pagulayan.

For years, the Taiwanese have enjoyed the reputation of being the world's best jumpers, but the evidence, including that which you have presented here, suggests it is time to reevaluate.

Hope you're well, my friend. I'm sure, like me, you were disappointed by the cancellation earlier this week of the summer edition of Turning Stone.
 
I'm going to disagree with half of the posters in here who favors Gorst in this match and say that I really think Justin is the better player between the two in all departments especially in long grind races which is the case for this match. The only department where Fedor may be better in is the jump shot, I know this may sound wild to some of you but it is how I feel. Ive seen justin break and run 8 racks with 9ball on the spot so I don't know why you give the break as a favor for Fedor.

Anyways, I'm waiting to see the match, my prediction is 100 to 90 for Justin.
 
smoochie said:
I'm going to disagree with half of the posters in here who favors Gorst in this match and say that I really think Justin is the better player between the two in all departments especially in long grind races which is the case for this match. The only department where Fedor may be better in is the jump shot, I know this may sound wild to some of you but it is how I feel. Ive seen justin break and run 8 racks with 9ball on the spot so I don't know why you give the break as a favor for Fedor.

Anyways, I'm waiting to see the match, my prediction is 100 to 90 for Justin.
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I know I'll be rooting for Justin, and he clearly has a shot, but I don't think your prediction holds up to scrutiny.

As we saw a few weeks ago in Fedor's match against Jeff Deluna, won 100-67 by Gorst, endurance is a nonissue here. By Fargo rating, Fedor (817) is the 10th best player in the world and Justin (795) the 44th best. Gorst has shown that he can hang with the game's most elite even in the toughest spots, having won the World 9-ball championship in 2019 by beating JL Chang in the final and by winning the European 9-ball Championship by beating Josh Filler in the final.

Justin knows that Fedor has an big edge in breaking, which is why they are not playing ten ball here. Justin is a magnificent player, but neither his resume nor his trophy case are a match for Fedor.
 
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sjm said:
I know I'll be rooting for Justin, and he clearly has a shot, but I don't think your prediction holds up to scrutiny.

As we saw a few weeks ago in Fedor's match against Jeff Deluna, won 100-67 by Gorst, endurance is a nonissue here. By Fargo rating, Fedor (817) is the 10th best player in the world and Justin (795) the 44th best. Gorst has shown that he can hang with the game's most elite even in the toughest spots, having won the World 9-ball championship in 2019 by beating JL Chang in the final and by winning the European 9-ball Championship by beating Josh Filler in the final.

Justin knows that Fedor has an big edge in breaking, which is why they are not playing ten ball here. Justin is a magnificent player, but neither resume nor his trophy case are no match for Fedor.
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I normally don't judge by Fargo rating, I know most people do but not me because I feel that it takes into account the games played and not skilled by itself. For example if two guys play the same level but one plays all around the world while the other plays in his own country only, the first guy will have more points than the latter guy.

I know guys at 700 fargo whom I can beat, while I have 0 fargo fating because I don't compete in tournaments. Anyway, that is another matter.

I respect your opinion about world champions but for me I'll still hold my initial opinion. For the Deluna matchup versus Fedor I stated in that thread before the match that Fedor will destroy Deluna and I even stated that Fedor may win 100 to 70 against Deluna. I know Deluna very well he's not a caliber top player compered to the 10 of your list not even close.

To me Deluna is a show player, he's the guy who will draw his cue ball 3 to 4 rails to show off to the audience but thats all there's to it. I really believe that he's not a top player not even close so prior to Fedor match I said that this will be walk in the park for Fedor.

To me and I am sorry if this may offend some people but Deluna is just a high B player, for real.

Next matchup is between two AAA players, Fedor vs Justin - and I will still say Justin will come on top in long races. Maybe if it was a short race then Fedor may win, since it is a long race Justin will win by at least 10 games, remember this post if that happens.
 
sjm said:
I agree with nearly all of your post, but not with this part.

The moves game is a clear weakness for Gorst, and I've not seen too much development in this area in the last few years. To be honest, if Fedor moved as well as Justin, he would be in the conversation with JL Chang, Josh Filler and SVB for best 9-ball player in the world, but, despite his world title, he's not in my top 10 yet (JL Chang, Filler, SVB, Shaw, Orcullo, Little Ko, Zheng, Raga, Wu Jiaqing, Biado). I consider Fedor to be the straightest shooter in the world, but it is the moves game that has held him back. The moves game includes a lot more than getting out of snookers, and Fedor's defensive design and safety play are suspect and his use of two way shots and downside management aren't well developed. Yes, Fedor jumps very well, but Bergman is a much stronger kicker than Fedor. I'd also rate Justin as far superior in tactical design elements such as pushouts and choosing between offense and defense. I'd further give Justin the edge in speed control and finesse. Justin's edge in the moves game is gigantic, but I don't think it will be nearly enough, because I don't think that enough racks will come down to the moves game. Justin is, by far, the best tactical pool player in the US today, and his moves game may just be top 10 in the world. His might just be the best tactical game we've seen from an American player since Nick Varner.

I see this match as about 100-82 favor of Gorst. Justin could possibly win it if it the match proves to be a grind, but it's hard to see it going that way. It should be a shootout, and it's awfully tough to outshoot Fedor. I don't see nine on the spot as something that will hold Fedor back that much. You're 100% right in noting that 4" pockets and slow cloth would neutralize some of Fedor's advantage.

PS On a side note, Albin Ouschan and Ko Pin Yi, in my opinion, are better jumpers than Fedor, and Jayson Shaw is Fedor's equal as a jumper.
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Very interesting post.

With short races (and I would consider even a race to 13 to be short, in terms of data collection) it could be hard to ascertain who is better at a particular part of the game. There are elements of luck, a bad day, a random missed shot or the pocket taking a ball that really was a slight miss, etc.

But in a race to 100 (which could easily present us with 180 racks, or so) there is a very good opportunity to collect more meaningful data. It would be interesting to see if we could agree which racks become "moves game" racks, who initiated the first move, and who ultimately won that game.

To keep it simple, could we say something like this?:

There were X games played. In those games there were Y games that included at least one intentional safety. When Fedor played the first intentional safety, he won R percent. When Justin played the first intentional safety, he won P percent.

That leaves many other things out, like pushing out, whether to accept or decline after the push, two-way shots, etc., but I am curious what we would find with just the question about results after playing the first safety.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks SJM. I probably underestimated Justin's moving game and didn't realize how leaky Fedor's was. I'll concede a moving edge to Justin and learn something from this exchange.

As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!




Check out these timestamps: Time: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37,


Click to expand...

Damn, this could send Earl to an early grave. :)
 
Very big divergence in opinions on this thread and that makes for a good match. I always look for the extraneous things that can affect a match, things that don't show up on a scoreboard or Fargo sheet. I won't go into the details (a trade secret) but there are a couple things that come into play in this match that may well affect the outcome. In this case I like Justin with games on the wire. I will have to travel over to the Action room to see what the line is there. There are some pretty sharp handicappers hanging out in there that back their opinion with cold hard cash!

I just looked and there was no thread in the Action room for this match. I started one and asked for Justin plus 15 games on the wire.
 
jay helfert said:
Very big divergence in opinions on this thread and that makes for a good match. I always look for the extraneous things that can affect a match, things that don't show up on a scoreboard or Fargo sheet. I won't go into the details (a trade secret) but there are a couple things that come into play in this match that may well affect the outcome. In this case I like Justin with games on the wire. I will have to travel over to the Action room to see what the line is there. There are some pretty sharp handicappers hanging out in there that back their opinion with cold hard cash!

I just looked and there was no thread in the Action room for this match. I started one and asked for Justin plus 15 games on the wire.
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Curious... would it be better if games on the wire included a half game (15.5?) to avoid a push?
 
smoochie said:
To me Deluna is a show player, he's the guy who will draw his cue ball 3 to 4 rails to show off to the audience but thats all there's to it. I really believe that he's not a top player not even close so prior to Fedor match I said that this will be walk in the park for Fedor.

To me and I am sorry if this may offend some people but Deluna is just a high B player, for real.
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LOL. Has there ever been a tougher field on American soil than that found at the 2019 Matchroom US Open 9-ball? If featured a field of 256, and the stars of both Europe and Asia came out in droves. Not only did DeLuna win a bronze medal in the event but, after crushing Pagulayan in the quarterfinal, he put a pretty big scare in Josh Filler in the semifinal.

The B players where you live must play pretty strong!
 
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