USA vs Russia 9 Ball Money Match

spartan said:
Nice post. I would guess that top 25 is enough to gauge strength of field since hardly anyone outside top 25 has won a major in recent years.
From your list , 2019 USO had 23 out of top 25 in the field - that is an incredible 92% easily the strongest :LOL:
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Agreed.

I think I would use percent of the top 25 to determine the strongest field, and percent of the top 100 to determine the deepest field.

You could easily imagine a field that removes three top-ten players, and adds four or more players from 50-100, increasing the “percent of the top 100” but really being a weaker field.
 
DieselPete said:
Agreed.

I think I would use percent of the top 25 to determine the strongest field, and percent of the top 100 to determine the deepest field.

You could easily imagine a field that removes three top-ten players, and adds four or more players from 50-100, increasing the “percent of the top 100” but really being a weaker field.
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Your first tournament may be harder to win. But the second tournament may be harder to make it to a stage 2 (more land mines in the field). We've been playing around with a measure of a tournament that blends the two ideas of tough to win and tough to get points. Essentially it is a weighed average of the ratings of the point earners, where the weighting is determined by the number of points.

With this, a tournament has kind of a rating--and it is sort of the rating value or a point.
 
According to Atlarge stats, Fedor thumped Aranas total 82-68 (over few disciplines 9B,10B,8B,1P) last few days. Which is winning margin of 17%. https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/fedor-and-aranas-1pkt.528240/post-6906442
Fedor had higher Fargo of about 10 points
Justin and Aranas played 2 races (10B) couple of years ago
Bergman won first 19-18 Bergman while Aranas win rematch 21-13
Overall Aranas won that with total 39-32 which is winning margin of 18% and Aranas had higher Fargo by about 10 points
Fedor beat de Luna 100-67 which is 33% margin and their Fargo difference is about 20 points
In this matchup Fedor has higher Fargo by 20 points. These match data suggest that winning margin could be around 30% like 100-70 o_O
 
spartan said:
According to Atlarge stats, Fedor thumped Aranas total 82-68 (over few disciplines 9B,10B,8B,1P) last few days. Which is winning margin of 17%. https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/fedor-and-aranas-1pkt.528240/post-6906442
Fedor had higher Fargo of about 10 points
Justin and Aranas played 2 races (10B) couple of years ago
Bergman won first 19-18 Bergman while Aranas win rematch 21-13
Overall Aranas won that with total 39-32 which is winning margin of 18% and Aranas had higher Fargo by about 10 points
Fedor beat de Luna 100-67 which is 33% margin and their Fargo difference is about 20 points
In this matchup Fedor has higher Fargo by 20 points. These match data suggest that winning margin could be around 30% like 100-70 o_O
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I’m sure you can find all the action you want if you’re willing to bet on Fedor and give Justin a 30 game spot.
 
terryhanna said:
Who do you guys like in this match ?

The Iceberg is stepping up to the plate and taking on the current World 9 Ball Champion from Russia

Justin Bergman v Fedor Gorst Race to 100 9 Ball

March 27-28-29 Racks on the Rocks W. Peoria, Illinois

9 Ball racks on the spot on the spot

3 point breaking rule

Magic rack (specific)

9ft Diamond 4.5" pockets

Simonis 860HR cloth

Aramith Tournament Edition Balls

Players photo credit: Edionisio

View attachment 588156
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take Fedor and bet the farm
 
Rocket354 said:
On the break, total balls pocketed + balls crossing headstring >= 3
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sjm said:
I agree with nearly all of your post, but not with this part.

The moves game is a clear weakness for Gorst, and I've not seen too much development in this area in the last few years. To be honest, if Fedor moved as well as Justin, he would be in the conversation with JL Chang, Josh Filler and SVB for best 9-ball player in the world, but, despite his world title, he's not in my top 10 yet (JL Chang, Filler, SVB, Shaw, Orcullo, Little Ko, Zheng, Raga, Wu Jiaqing, Biado). I consider Fedor to be the straightest shooter in the world, but it is the moves game that has held him back. The moves game includes a lot more than getting out of snookers, and Fedor's defensive design and safety play are suspect and his use of two way shots and downside management aren't well developed. Yes, Fedor jumps very well, but Bergman is a much stronger kicker than Fedor. I'd also rate Justin as far superior in tactical design elements such as pushouts and choosing between offense and defense. I'd further give Justin the edge in speed control and finesse. Justin's edge in the moves game is gigantic, but I don't think it will be nearly enough, because I don't think that enough racks will come down to the moves game. Justin is, by far, the best tactical pool player in the US today, and his moves game may just be top 10 in the world. His might just be the best tactical game we've seen from an American player since Nick Varner.

I see this match as about 100-82 favor of Gorst. Justin could possibly win it if it the match proves to be a grind, but it's hard to see it going that way. It should be a shootout, and it's awfully tough to outshoot Fedor. I don't see nine on the spot as something that will hold Fedor back that much. You're 100% right in noting that 4" pockets and slow cloth would neutralize some of Fedor's advantage.

PS On a side note, Albin Ouschan and Ko Pin Yi, in my opinion, are better jumpers than Fedor, and Jayson Shaw is Fedor's equal as a jumper.
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Your posts are so interesting. You seem to know so much about the game. Are you an instructor?
 
9ballscorpion said:
Your posts are so interesting. You seem to know so much about the game. Are you an instructor?
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First of all, thanks for your kind words.

I do teach, but only game theory, and I like to stay under the radar as much as possible. I have watched the entire nine ball era up close. As a forty five year veteran of the tournament trail, I have seen first hand how practically every top nine ball player went about their business. Those are my primary credentials.

I tend to break success in nine ball as boiling down to competency in these eight elements: 1) Stroke fundamentals, 2) The Break, 3) Angle management, 4) Pattern play, 5) Defense, 6) Kicking, 7) Two Way Shots, and 8) General Tactical Conceptualization.

In my not-so-humble opinion, and you'll have to forgive me for this, I believe myself to be an expert in general game theory, meaning items 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. I have taught these elements, chiefly to professionals and free of charge, including multiple world champions, but I doubt more than about a dozen pros would count me as a significant influence, and no, I won't name them. I have not and will never seek students, but over the years, more than a few top players have sought my guidance in some or all of these areas of the game.

If you want to develop the perfect stroke fundamentals or learn how to develop the best possible break, you need to go somewhere else.

Although I teach from time to time, I've never thought of myself as an instructor.
 
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sjm said:
First of all, thanks for your kind words.

I do teach, but only game theory, and I like to stay under the radar as much as possible. I have been watched the entire nine ball era up close. As a forty five year veteran of the tournament trail, I have seen first hand how practically every top nine ball player went about their business. Those are my primary credentials.

I tend to break success in nine ball as boiling down to competency in these eight elements: 1) Stroke fundamentals, 2) The Break, 3) Angle management, 4) Pattern play, 5) Defense, 6) Kicking, 7) Two Way Shots, and 8) General Tactical Conceptualization.

In my not-so-humble opinion, and you'll have to forgive me for this, I believe myself to be an expert in general game theory, meaning items 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. I have taught these elements, chiefly to professionals and free of charge, including multiple world champions, but I doubt more than about a dozen pros would count me as a significant influence, and no, I won't name them. I have not and will never seek students, but over the years, more than a few top players have sought my guidance in some or all of these areas of the game.

If you want to develop the perfect stroke fundamentals or learn how to develop the best possible break, you need to go somewhere else.

Although I teach from time to time, I've never thought of myself as an instructor.
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Modesty will get you everywhere. You forgot one thing. You've taught a lot of us how to behave on here! :)
 
sjm said:
First of all, thanks for your kind words.

I do teach, but only game theory, and I like to stay under the radar as much as possible. I have been watched the entire nine ball era up close. As a forty five year veteran of the tournament trail, I have seen first hand how practically every top nine ball player went about their business. Those are my primary credentials.

I tend to break success in nine ball as boiling down to competency in these eight elements: 1) Stroke fundamentals, 2) The Break, 3) Angle management, 4) Pattern play, 5) Defense, 6) Kicking, 7) Two Way Shots, and 8) General Tactical Conceptualization.

In my not-so-humble opinion, and you'll have to forgive me for this, I believe myself to be an expert in general game theory, meaning items 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. I have taught these elements, chiefly to professionals and free of charge, including multiple world champions, but I doubt more than about a dozen pros would count me as a significant influence, and no, I won't name them. I have not and will never seek students, but over the years, more than a few top players have sought my guidance in some or all of these areas of the game.

If you want to develop the perfect stroke fundamentals or learn how to develop the best possible break, you need to go somewhere else.

Although I teach from time to time, I've never thought of myself as an instructor.
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Do you know of any books that teach the angle management or tactical conceptualization or more than introductory pattern play?
 
bb9ball said:
Do you know of any books that teach the angle management or tactical conceptualization or more than introductory pattern play?
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No, which doesn't mean they don't exist.

George Fels "How Would You Play This?" offers some nice examples in strategic decision making, but I haven't seen much on tactical conceptualization in all my years around the game.

Something on advanced pattern play may be out there, but I haven't seen it. Dr. Dave's videos offer excellent insight into some tactical subjects, too. Advanced pattern play, to me, means choosing between angles that only differ slightly in the path to the next ball, and it's very rare that any attention at all is paid to it in pool literature, on pool videos, in pool commentary, or on the forum.

A real issue is that tactical conceptualization is a dry, even boring, subject in the eyes of many, so the incentive for anyone to write such a book is minimal. You see it on AZB, too, where strategy oriented threads rarely get much attention. Strip the game of all the tactical elements like defense, two way shots, and general strategy and you're left with playing the ghost, a subject that always gets a lot of attention around here.

Of course, I know nothing of books not written in English on the subject of pool, and there are many.
 
Get your sweat bets down guys.
Starts Next weekend on Saturday March 27th
Get down to Racks on the Rocks in W. Peoria, Illinois and sweat the match in person if you can.

If you are going in person for this match here is a link for discounted hotel room.

www.ihg.com

Holiday Inn Express & Suites East Peoria - Riverfront

Official site of Holiday Inn Express & Suites East Peoria - Riverfront. Stay Smart, rest, and recharge at Holiday Inn Express - Best Price Guarantee.
www.ihg.com www.ihg.com

If you can't make it in person you can catch all the action live online at PoolActionTV.com


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Players Photo Credit Edionisio

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Tin Man said:
As for the jumping bit though, I need more convincing. I'm open to be convinced, but allow me to share why I am a Fedor jumper fan. Two links. The first is practice but it is a must watch. The second was a match he played with Neils in which he kept pushing out to jumps and Neils couldn't take them but Fedor kept making them. Neils was befuddled. Fedor shot at 5 jumps in the first 6 racks. He made four of them and slopped in the last one (Times: 3:26, 4:35, 11:17, 27:37).

I have never seen anyone complete a drill like this or use the jump so effectively in a match. I've seen him do this in other matches but this one stood out to me. If you spend the 10 minutes to check this out and still tell me Albin and Ko Pin Yi jump better than I will immediately surrender because I trust you. But I want to know you've seen what I've seen with Fedor. Thanks!
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I think Fedor backed up your view in the match against Bergman. Fedor is the best in the world at jump shots.
 
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