Magoos has no longer a carom table.
Yes there's Jim Withman he's a very good player, I think he averages about .800. We have a player from Mexico that averages about 1.000-1.100 he only plays by feel he dosen't know any systems he's amazing.I will post some pics of our room soon.
"I do recall the times being here when Hernan would always post for advice -and give our little Mexican chatter- and eze123 would give me pungent comments about my small game"
Pungent, I like that. Whatever happened to Hernan? and Seven?
Yeah, there are pockets where the game is played, and dying elsewhere. Where the pockets are, like say, Queens, the game is going great. The fact is the center has changed, the game is going great where there are Korean and Hispanic immigrants. Who are the top players in the US? All immigrants. Like this guy says, "We have a player from Mexico that averages about 1.000-1.100 he only plays by feel he dosen't know any systems he's amazing." Look at CaromCafe, people playing tables all day long. The game is probably going to die out in the sparser populated parts of the country. The USBA can't prop the game up artificially there, it's just not going to happen. If you live there and you can't find a table to play on,it sucks, but to be honest, I think the USBA throwing limited dollars into "Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Central and Southern IL" is a lost cause. They can put money into one place in the middle of Kansas and attract three people from 100 miles around or have a tourney at a place in Queens with four tables.
GBLANKS;
Sorry to here no more table at Magoo's, I might be a little confused, you are converting some old tables to play like Eueopean tables?, this seems to never work out to well in my experience, it's not just the type of rubber used, you have to change the back angle on wood of the rail and the height of the rail, also the height of the table it's self, older tables are usually 3 to 4 inches higher than European's. I have a very good contact for used European heated tables here in the states, if you are interested, please PM me and I will give you the info. By the way, I also give Exibition's and clinics to teach all levels of players through our web site OldSchoolPool.Net, myself ,Danny Deliberto, Grady Matthews, and Freddy "The Beard" Bentivegna, this includes, lessons on One Pocket, Straight Pool, Nine Ball, Banks, and of course 3 Cushion Billiards.
We have been indoctrinated for sooo long about European tables. And for good reason.Almost every pool hall you go into that has an American made table has;
slow cloth
dirty cloth
dead rubber
un-heated
worn balls
installed like a pool table
Almost every pool hall that has the money for a European table has:
Simonis 300 or Granito m
vacuumed table(this is a stretch)
p37 rubber
heated
clean current balls(this is also a stretch)
installed properly
Therefore American tables = bad
Therefore European tables = good
I contend that you take an American built table with the characteristics of the European tables and you have Olhausen.
For full disclosure, I'm a Olhausen Specialty dealer.
OK, guys, we're starting to get off topic completely.
For those of you that know me, you know that I am a very direct and honest guy. No BS. Just action.
So, here are my questions for Mr. Billiardshot (Bob Watson):
1) What exactly is your problem with the USBA and myself personally?
2) If you don't like what the USBA is doing, then do something about it and stop complaining. I did just that by becoming Secretary/Treasurer and I would like to think that I have helped to move the USBA in the right direction at least.
3) If you don't want to be a member of the USBA, then stop complaining about it. The USBA cannot grow without member support. So if you are not a supporter of the USBA, then you are part of the problem and you don't have a right to complain about it.
4) You respect Raiford and Dieckman, (but not the USBA). Why is that? Dennis Dieckman, who is my friend, has supported Women's and Juniors Billiards for years. Credit is well-deserved. But guess what? The USBA has also been there with him. We also support Men's, Women's and Junior's Billiards. Why no credit to the USBA? Robert Raiford is also my friend. I respect him as a player. I assume that he also respects me as a player as well. So why do you respect Mr. Raiford (which you should), yet you don't respect Mr. Shovak? I see some double standards here. Why?
I wasn't being sarcastic or anything, I love the game too. But when you say something like, "Take a town like St. Louis and you'll find a half dozen regulars out of a population of a million+ and 3 are in their late 70's." A million plus people and six people play the game, and half of that population is over 70? Do you seriously expect that an all-volunteer org like USBA is going to resurrect the game there? What could they possibly do? A multinational corporation with an endless budget would have a problem with that market. In ten years, you'll have 3 living players in a city of over a million people? Sorry, but it is a lost cause. If you're outside the pockets, the game is in trouble, been in trouble for fifty years or so.
"I am in the DC area and have been wanting to play a 3c tourney for quite some time. Looks like the only options for me are NY or FL" Yes, unfortunately. I'm in CT, would love to be playing weekly 3-C tournaments here. It's not going to happen, there are four public tables in the whole state, each is at least a half hour away. I have to go to Queens to play people. It is what it is.
Jim
Is it true that nomination for officers within the USBA cannot come directly from a member? I was told that a nomination, if one wants to become active and change the culture, must first be approved by a board member. This seems to ensure more of the same culture, rather than change.
I for one love the game of 3C and I travel to find good equipment. I have no qualms with the USBA or with the treatment of billiards on AZ. I was a little shocked, however, to hear that nominating members to affect change was not a simple matter. Can you elaborate?
Probably because you haven't looked. I would assume St. Louis has healthy Latino and Asian communities. If you polled these people I'd bet you'd find a hundred, maybe more.
San Diego's College Billiards had two ratty tables. At most, six active players. New owners put in 6 Verhoevens. Every evening they're mostly full. Weekly handicapped tournaments attract 20-30 players and yearly they host one of the strongest USBA events. All this within three years.
Same thing could happen in St. Louis or Kansas City...Even Springdale, Arkansas.
Probably because you haven't looked. I would assume St. Louis has healthy Latino and Asian communities. If you polled these people I'd bet you'd find a hundred, maybe more.
San Diego's College Billiards had two ratty tables. At most, six active players. New owners put in 6 Verhoevens. Every evening they're mostly full. Weekly handicapped tournaments attract 20-30 players and yearly they host one of the strongest USBA events. All this within three years.
Same thing could happen in St. Louis or Kansas City...Even Springdale, Arkansas.
That's exactly my point, but everybody, pool halls and the USBA seems to agree, it's hopeless. I played at College once when they had the 2 ratty tables. Never thought for a second of going back.
Believe me it's not for lack of looking or trying to introduce pool players to the game or not being free with information. When I say regulars I mean everyday of nearly so. St. Louis is just an example of a large town in the Midwest that used to produce top notch players. What happened? The tables left starting many years ago when Grand and Olive closed then the place on Arsenal then Pete died then South Grand then Telegraph, then....... The tables just vanished, mostly trashed or cut into pool tables and nobody thought to take up the slack. Now "it is what it is, and it's not going to change" I'm told. So why am I back on this thread. This discussion is so darn depressing. Because I don't want to accept it. That attitude will be the last nail for everybody in this game and I aint ready yet. The game or the USBA or any organization, that doesn't have stretch goals, is going nowhere.
As far as converting T-Rail Brunswicks are concerned (mentioned above) that's what I own and it plays beautiful. Better than most tables I've played on with the exception of some rooms I've been in New York, Chicago and LA. Those places not only have top notch European Tables but management knows the importance to the game of maintaining the equipment. They've learned that not only does it save money to keep things pristine but they make money because it's much more fun to play on a table that at least tries to conform to the systems. Dirty cloth Dirty worn out balls converted pool tables or carom look a likes, tables with zero slide, short angle tables, all force potential players to stick with pool. It's just no fun. For anybody.
Establishing a program to introduce players to the game, support pool rooms with financing or discounts for tables, help with promoting their business and the game of 3C, transforming the organization that would be foolish for players not to join and support, is what my perfect world would look like. Now how do we do that? Or should I just accept what is?
And Jim I love you man but gee wiz. You'd hate to see 1000 tables put in this country because it might not work? If a thousand tables could ever be placed across the country it would be heaven and all we have to do is keep track of them and if things did turn sour then re-place them somewhere else. But before that we make sure that doesn't happen with the support of the USBA and it's members. Lets see 1000 new tables and 10,000 members. Look its the chicken and the egg story. I contend we need chickens first. It's impossible to play the game without chick.... I mean tables. And no business grows without taking some kind of risk. We just need to prove it's not that risky. As a matter of fact its good profitable business.
College Billiards - San Diego Congratulations on a job well done!!!!
OK, guys, we're starting to get off topic completely.
For those of you that know me, you know that I am a very direct and honest guy. No BS. Just action.
So, here are my questions for Mr. Billiardshot (Bob Watson):
1) What exactly is your problem with the USBA and myself personally?
2) If you don't like what the USBA is doing, then do something about it and stop complaining. I did just that by becoming Secretary/Treasurer and I would like to think that I have helped to move the USBA in the right direction at least.
3) If you don't want to be a member of the USBA, then stop complaining about it. The USBA cannot grow without member support. So if you are not a supporter of the USBA, then you are part of the problem and you don't have a right to complain about it.
4) You respect Raiford and Dieckman, (but not the USBA). Why is that? Dennis Dieckman, who is my friend, has supported Women's and Juniors Billiards for years. Credit is well-deserved. But guess what? The USBA has also been there with him. We also support Men's, Women's and Junior's Billiards. Why no credit to the USBA? Robert Raiford is also my friend. I respect him as a player. I assume that he also respects me as a player as well. So why do you respect Mr. Raiford (which you should), yet you don't respect Mr. Shovak? I see some double standards here. Why?
1) What exactly is your problem with the USBA and myself personally?
Answer: As a Board Member not using AZ Forum [ Free] or any other Forum to your [USBA] advanced to Promote USBA TOUR or Tournament. Before you answer! Be sure to check/ see who have posted about these Tournament ????? Also see when Bob Watson USBA Forum member jointed or who Post first on AZ about the USBA Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why isn't there info from USBA TOUR from the Carom Cafe Aug. 17 to 23 2009. And you don't want to discuss the rule and regulation [unless private]
2) If you don't like what the USBA is doing, then do something about it and stop complaining. I did just that by becoming Secretary/Treasurer and I would like to think that I have helped to move the USBA in the right direction at least.
Answer: If Member or Non Member don't complain. How you know if you are right or wrong????????
3) If you don't want to be a member of the USBA, then stop complaining about it. The USBA cannot grow without member support. So if you are not a supporter of the USBA, then you are part of the problem and you don't have a right to complain about it.
Answer: I support the Tournament part as I see fit. Since I'm a 0000000001 avg player. Read Post #1. I'm the Person who donate $50.00 then you wanted me to pay the PayPal Fee to insured you got $50.00!!!!!
I'm the one who put $100.00 each for the first women tournament High Score and High Run Nothing in return from USBA [ Except from Paul Frankel. THANK]
4) You respect Raiford and Dieckman, (but not the USBA). Why is that? Dennis Dieckman, who is my friend, has supported Women's and Juniors Billiards for years. Credit is well-deserved. But guess what? The USBA has also been there with him. We also support Men's, Women's and Junior's Billiards. Why no credit to the USBA? Robert Raiford is also my friend. I respect him as a player. I assume that he also respects me as a player as well. So why do you respect Mr. Raiford (which you should), yet you don't respect Mr. Shovak? I see some double standards here. Why
Answer: I promise Dieckman back in '90 I would support both the Junior and Women 3 Cushion Billiard. Paul Frankel with his magazine have done more than some [ but he know where the money is]. Raiford I don't know except throught his video, commentary at caromtv and post on AZ. But if I was to add another it would be Cuetable
Jim
Is it true that nomination for officers within the USBA cannot come directly from a member? I was told that a nomination, if one wants to become active and change the culture, must first be approved by a board member. This seems to ensure more of the same culture, rather than change.
I for one love the game of 3C and I travel to find good equipment. I have no qualms with the USBA or with the treatment of billiards on AZ. I was a little shocked, however, to hear that nominating members to affect change was not a simple matter. Can you elaborate?
Actually, the way the rules are right now, you can nominate yourself. That should probably change, but for now I am not worried about it since we have not received an abundance of nominees anyway. The current rules require that at least one member of the current Board of Directors must second the nomination to be placed on the ballot. I, for one, do NOT think that is unreasonable at all. Think about it: if not even one member of the Board (11 Board members) will second your nomination, then there must be a good reason for that, wouldn't you say?
An argument can be made that if the ENTIRE Board is either corrupt or do-nothings then it would insure more of the same. Perhaps that would be true.
Here's my take on it: I would like every Regional Director to be an active and contributing Board Member. That means that they are happy to agree to the following guidelines for Regional Directors:
Regional Director Guidelines:
It is expected that a member of the Board will:
1) have and maintain reasonable computer access and check for online Board communications on a regular and timely basis,
2) participate with reasonable frequency in Board discussions, whether on the Board forum, or otherwise,
3) help direct/promote local tournaments.
Encouraged activity:
A Regional Director is strongly encouraged to visit/contact as many billiard rooms as possible within his/her region to establish a relationship with the owner or a representative of the room. If there is no current representative of the room, the Regional Director is encouraged to help establish one. Teaching someone from the room how to run tournaments is ideal. A Regional Director should be available to help local room representatives with information, forms, materials, advice, etc. A Regional Director is encouraged to insure that each room in his/her region has a USBA Membership Display, Poster and Membership Applications which can be provided by the Secretary. A Regional Director is encouraged to promote the USBA and tournaments as often as possible.
A Regional Director can seek reimbursement from the USBA for reasonable expenses incurred during the performance of his/her duties, subject to the approval by the Secretary and/or the Board of Directors. If possible, the expenses should be approved in advance. The normal reasonable expenses are:
- Gasoline expenses incurred in the "establishment" of a new relationship between a room and the USBA
- Necessary tournament & recruitment materials
Here’s one of the problems: If anyone can simply run for office and get elected (perhaps through popularity which is all too common) then we have no guarantee that the person elected will be a productive member on the Board (not that we ever can). Our current Board of Directors has been much more productive and cooperative than some Boards of the past. But we still have too many who are simply not doing anything to advance the game. We need people who want to work. If we keep nominating (and electing) do-nothings, then we WILL continue to have more of the same. I think the answer is this: instead of simply having Regional Director Guidelines, we need them to become Regional Director Duties and Responsibilities. Then every nominee MUST agree to abide by them and do some actual work. Then at least we would be somewhat assured that every elected candidate would be a worker and not just an office holder with a title.
And Jim I love you man but gee wiz. You'd hate to see 1000 tables put in this country because it might not work? If a thousand tables could ever be placed across the country it would be heaven and all we have to do is keep track of them and if things did turn sour then re-place them somewhere else.
I was assuming that you meant that we actually gave away the tables to the room owners at our cost and then the owner (if they weren't making any money) would simply get rid of or sell the tables.
If the tables were to remain our property regardless of the outcome, then, yes, I would agree with you that it would be a great thing!
Do you happen to have a few extra million lying around? If so, we can do this project and you can also help me out a little bit as well.
1) What exactly is your problem with the USBA and myself personally?
Answer: As a Board Member not using AZ Forum [ Free] or any other Forum to your [USBA] advanced to Promote USBA TOUR or Tournament. Before you answer! Be sure to check/ see who have posted about these Tournament ????? Also see when Bob Watson USBA Forum member jointed or who Post first on AZ about the USBA Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why isn't there info from USBA TOUR from the Carom Cafe Aug. 17 to 23 2009. And you don't want to discuss the rule and regulation [unless private]
2) If you don't like what the USBA is doing, then do something about it and stop complaining. I did just that by becoming Secretary/Treasurer and I would like to think that I have helped to move the USBA in the right direction at least.
Answer: If Member or Non Member don't complain. How you know if you are right or wrong????????
3) If you don't want to be a member of the USBA, then stop complaining about it. The USBA cannot grow without member support. So if you are not a supporter of the USBA, then you are part of the problem and you don't have a right to complain about it.
Answer: I support the Tournament part as I see fit. Since I'm a 0000000001 avg player. Read Post #1. I'm the Person who donate $50.00 then you wanted me to pay the PayPal Fee to insured you got $50.00!!!!!
I'm the one who put $100.00 each for the first women tournament High Score and High Run Nothing in return from USBA [ Except from Paul Frankel. THANK]
4) You respect Raiford and Dieckman, (but not the USBA). Why is that? Dennis Dieckman, who is my friend, has supported Women's and Juniors Billiards for years. Credit is well-deserved. But guess what? The USBA has also been there with him. We also support Men's, Women's and Junior's Billiards. Why no credit to the USBA? Robert Raiford is also my friend. I respect him as a player. I assume that he also respects me as a player as well. So why do you respect Mr. Raiford (which you should), yet you don't respect Mr. Shovak? I see some double standards here. Why
Answer: I promise Dieckman back in '90 I would support both the Junior and Women 3 Cushion Billiard. Paul Frankel with his magazine have done more than some [ but he know where the money is]. Raiford I don't know except throught his video, commentary at caromtv and post on AZ. But if I was to add another it would be Cuetable
Probably because you haven't looked. I would assume St. Louis has healthy Latino and Asian communities. If you polled these people I'd bet you'd find a hundred, maybe more.
San Diego's College Billiards had two ratty tables. At most, six active players. New owners put in 6 Verhoevens. Every evening they're mostly full. Weekly handicapped tournaments attract 20-30 players and yearly they host one of the strongest USBA events. All this within three years.
Same thing could happen in St. Louis or Kansas City...Even Springdale, Arkansas.
Exactly, thank you. Overnight, no need to prop the game up. People itching to play the game, take out the pool tables and put in heated tables. There are places where it's all a specific ethnic group and you might not want to go there, but then there are also places where there are people that don't want to get shot looking to play billiards, if there's one place in town they can play safely, they'll go there.
The game has been dying for 50 years in this country. But the game has never been in better shape today, there are young players everywhere. Picture billiards in this country today without Sang Lee. There are four tables in the state I'm in, and if I ever meet anybody playing on them, they have an accent.
The game hasn't had this good of a chance in this country since 1955, but its future is not going to come from three old men in St. Louis, it's going to come from the 'pockets'.
I play some at College but mainly in Tijuana. Most of the time I'm the only white guy in the room. Never felt the least bit uncomfortable or concerned for my safety. The level of play is phenomenal and all players are perfect gentlemen. Players range in age from early 20's to 80's.
90% of the players at College Billiards are also Latino. So what? Their money spends just like yours and mine.
The game has been dying for 50 years in this country. But the game has never been in better shape today, there are young players everywhere. The game hasn't had this good of a chance in this country since 1955
its future is not going to come from three old men in St. Louis, it's going to come from the 'pockets'.[/QUOTE]
It's dying litterally and figurativly. There's young players everywhere but I dont's see young 3C players. I realize you do and maybe 3/4 of the country doesn't matter to the Right and Left Coast. As far as the market is concerned certainly it will need to come primarily from pocket players but it's really tough to make the introduction without tables. If players are iching to play why aren't room owners putting in tables.
Too bad the tournament going on right now in New York didn't have another stop somewhere else next week. Which is just one of the many money issues. The moment I saw 3C played for the first time I wanted to know how. I hadn't even bought my first cue at that time. Exposure is the key.
How would owners know? Most think pool and billiards are one in the same. Carom players don't function as an organized group. A player walks into a room, sees no tables and walks out. He may say something to the owner/manager but he's just one guy. No owner would spend 5-8k based on that.
IMO, the USBA should spend some effort on polling and organizing in mid-sized cities that have healthy foreign communities. Maybe placing ads in ethnic papers and then, based on interest, convincing room owners that the market would support investing in a table.
.
