Using a bar cue for draw...

[jay helfert]

Eh, sorta. Since nobody I know of makes two piece pool cues with old house cue dimensions, then yeah. Lots of carom house cues are two piece and fat.

On the flip side of things, more modern equipment makes those old house cues nearly obsolete. They don't have that same magic they seem to have on older equipment. In fact often times they seem bulky & hard to play with. This is where the newer cues with all the LD technology shines bright. It's fascinating to me how these seemingly insignificant nuances can make such a big difference.

Most players today play on varying levels of equipment, so the modern standard custom and production cues are pretty popular. As we lean more & more into the ultra smooth playing tables like Diamond with fast cloth & polished balls, the LD technology is becoming more & more dominant. It's pretty cool seeing the evolution unfold.

I have to agree with you again. A friend of mine came over to practice at my house yesterday and brought along his Predator carbon fiber cue with the matching carbon fiber shaft. It looked like a gray metal graphite cue, but that's where the similarity ends. He let me hit a few balls with it and what a revelation it was. So much cue with so little effort required. It immediately felt solid in my hands and the shots were going in with almost no effort on my part. Just aim and shoot, that's all. I don't think I've ever felt a cue that made shooting balls feel so easy.

He told me that cues like this are increasingly hard to get as the factory is way behind making them. He said people are now buying them just to resell for a profit. Someone else will have to comment on how true this is.

I'm just a little too old school to make the shift now. I'm playing with a 40+ year old four point full splice cue that I like and I'm fine with that. If I can get back to 80% of my top speed as a youngster I'd be more than happy. Once upon a time I was a shot making fool. Now I'm just an old fool who wants to play pool again, and try to recapture my youth. I will always say that there is nothing in life that compares with the feeling of being in dead stroke, where everything looks make-able and pool becomes an easy game. Once you've experienced that it's something you'll never forget. I'd like to have that feeling just once more in my life.

 

[marek]

I find it hard to believe that a radially laminated shaft marketed as low deflection moves out of the way more than a standard maple shaft. The only one I have tried is a Tiger shaft which seems very stiff to me.

It is about end-mass of the shaft which determines the amount of shaft flex during the hit of cueball - the lower the endmass of the shaft the easier the flex is. Most LD shafts are cored which lowers the endmass of the shaft considerably, also the ferrule tends to be shorter to further lower the endmass. Hope this helps

 

[marek]

I have to agree with you again. A friend of mine came over to practice at my house yesterday and brought along his Predator carbon fiber cue with the matching carbon fiber shaft. It looked like a gray metal graphite cue, but that's where the similarity ends. He let me hit a few balls with it and what a revelation it was. So much cue with so little effort required. It immediately felt solid in my hands and the shots were going in with almost no effort on my part. Just aim and shoot, that's all. I don't think I've ever felt a cue that made shooting balls feel so easy.

He told me that cues like this are increasingly hard to get as the factory is way behind making them. He said people are now buying them just to resell for a profit. Someone else will have to comment on how true this is.

I'm just a little too old school to make the shift now. I'm playing with a 40+ year old four point full splice cue that I like and I'm fine with that. If I can get back to 80% of my top speed as a youngster I'd be more than happy. Once upon a time I was a shot making fool. Now I'm just an old fool who wants to play pool again, and try to recapture my youth. I will always say that there is nothing in life that compares with the feeling of being in dead stroke, where everything looks make-able and pool becomes an easy game. Once you've experienced that it's something you'll never forget. I'd like to have that feeling just once more in my life.

Welcome believer! :thumbup:

 

[Cornerman]

I happened to be playing some bar pool a while back using a bar cue that had a nice tip but was heavy at the tip end and thick, etc., as most bar cues seem to be.

I had a table-length shot and needed to draw the cueball back to where it started. I fired away and, surprisingly to me, the c/b came back too far with ease. That is, I didn't hit that low or anything that I could tell, but it sure came back easily and far.

Compared to the l/d shaft I usually use, this draw was almost too easy.

What's up with that? Can anyone provide some science to show why this happened?

Thanks,



Jeff Livingston

EDIT: It was a valley cue ball with, I think, the purple logo on it.

EDIT again: The tip was dime-shaped.

No idea beyond what everyone else already said.

I’d suggest to take that cue home with you.

 

[MattPoland]

It is about end-mass of the shaft which determines the amount of shaft flex during the hit of cueball - the lower the endmass of the shaft the easier the flex is. Most LD shafts are cored which lowers the endmass of the shaft considerably, also the ferrule tends to be shorter to further lower the endmass. Hope this helps

I know Dr Dave’s explanation is that the lower endmass simply means less of an equal and opposite force being pushed laterally on the ball (creating squirt). While lower endmass may also lead to flex, the flex itself has nothing to do with the low squirt. The moment of energy transfer is near instantaneous and all the flex occurs after contact and after energy has been transferred. It’s an after-effect.

It didn’t click for me until I realized two things. First is that energy transfer is near instantaneous. Second is that the energy transfer is two separate impulses. The forward impulse is the full mass of the stick coming forward. The lateral (squirt causing) impulse is with an intensity based on the end of the stick pushing back on the ball laterally proportionate to its mass. The flex myth was fixed in my mind because I was stuck picturing the tip flexing while maintaining contact with the ball when in truth contact isn’t maintained long enough for that to be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[Squirt] is about end-mass of the shaft which determines the amount of shaft flex during the hit of cueball - the lower the endmass of the shaft the easier the flex is.

This has been debunked many times. Many stiff shafts are low-squirt. Many flexible shafts are high-squirt. There's no reliable correlation between shaft stiffness and squirt.

pj
chgo

 

[fasted71465]

It is a combination of a well shaped tip and the one piece cue stiffness. All or most of the energy was transferred to to cue ball. Add in that you hit the sweet spot on the cue ball with a good stroke and magic happens.

 

[pt109]

Marek
I’m curious about your new shaft

I don’t completely understand what allows a cue to draw well...
...but played well enough to know when they could.
I’ve had a lot of good cues over the years...I wouldn’t buy one that was weak on the draw.

I have a ‘68 Joss that is my one pocket cue...
...with a ball in the jaws of a corner pocket and the cue ball six inches off the far end rail...
...I could draw a length and a quarter.
I had a Szamboti I could draw two lengths and change on the same set-up.

I’m interested how your new shaft would fare on thes shot...you got the stroke and power
for it to be a fair test.......video, please.

You are definitely stronger than I am...I’m an ectomorph....but I must warn you...
...I could drive a golf ball into orbit...NASA asked me to stop teeing the ball so high...:smile:

 

[zeeder]

Marek
I’m curious about your new shaft

I don’t completely understand what allows a cue to draw well...
...but played well enough to know when they could.
I’ve had a lot of good cues over the years...I wouldn’t buy one that was weak on the draw.

I have a ‘68 Joss that is my one pocket cue...
...with a ball in the jaws of a corner pocket and the cue ball six inches off the far end rail...
...I could draw a length and a quarter.
I had a Szamboti I could draw two lengths and change on the same set-up.

I’m interested how your new shaft would fare on thes shot...you got the stroke and power
for it to be a fair test.......video, please.

You are definitely stronger than I am...I’m an ectomorph....but I must warn you...
...I could drive a golf ball into orbit...NASA asked me to stop teeing the ball so high...:smile:

That's pretty sporty, what was the typical % outcome on this shot?

 

[pt109]

That's pretty sporty, what was the typical % outcome on this shot?

Those were just my best hits....I didn’t shoot it a lot...
...these shots were my cue testers...I figured if I could draw a long way...then when a
normal power shot came up, I could shoot it with more control.

The reason I’m asking Marek about this....I was a test pilot for a composite shaft in the 90s...
...on long power draws, it was a big favorite to miscue, regardless of the tip used...
...and when I didn’t miscue, the shaft produced a weak hit.

A great shaft has ‘spine’...but it flexes quickly also.
....I don’t really understand it, but my stroke does.

I’m also curious how Dr Dave, PJ, Freddy, and Eric Crisp feel about this.

 

[zeeder]

That makes sense. I'm interested in the carbon cues as well, so much so that I ordered a Becue. I can't wait to see how it compares on shots like this to my full maple shafts.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Those were just my best hits....I didn’t shoot it a lot...
...these shots were my cue testers...I figured if I could draw a long way...then when a
normal power shot came up, I could shoot it with more control.

The reason I’m asking Marek about this....I was a test pilot for a composite shaft in the 90s...
...on long power draws, it was a big favorite to miscue, regardless of the tip used...
...and when I didn’t miscue, the shaft produced a weak hit.

A great shaft has ‘spine’...but it flexes quickly also.
....I don’t really understand it, but my stroke does.

I’m also curious how Dr Dave, PJ, Freddy, and Eric Crisp feel about this.

Going only by what I've learned from the real scientists on that list, I don't believe any cue spins the CB better than any other.

One problem with comparing draw (or follow) is that more speed/power = more draw/follow (unlike side spin), so it's hard to know what's causing it.

pj
chgo

 

[zeeder]

Going only by what I've learned from the real scientists on that list, I don't believe any cue spins the CB better than any other.

One problem with comparing draw (or follow) is that more speed/power = more draw/follow (unlike side spin), so it's hard to know what's causing it.

pj
chgo

More speed/power doesn't equal more side spin?

 

[KRJ]

More speed/power doesn't equal more side spin?

Are you saying it does ?

 

[MattPoland]

More speed/power doesn't equal more side spin?

Kind of a tricky. I don’t think you typically put three tips of side spin and give it the same stroke you would for a full table draw. You could, but it would be a bit wild. You probably wouldn’t get the kind of object ball throw action or rail action you’d expect because of all the additional factors. So typically the amount of sidespin tends to just be limited to tip placement for most shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[zeeder]

Are you saying it does ?

I am. There's that trick shot to try and keep the ball spinning as long as possible with extreme side and power with a stop shot. If extra power didn't add extra spin then you wouldn't have to hit the shot hard.

 

[marek]

Marek
I’m curious about your new shaft

I don’t completely understand what allows a cue to draw well...
...but played well enough to know when they could.
I’ve had a lot of good cues over the years...I wouldn’t buy one that was weak on the draw.

I have a ‘68 Joss that is my one pocket cue...
...with a ball in the jaws of a corner pocket and the cue ball six inches off the far end rail...
...I could draw a length and a quarter.
I had a Szamboti I could draw two lengths and change on the same set-up.

I’m interested how your new shaft would fare on thes shot...you got the stroke and power
for it to be a fair test.......video, please.

You are definitely stronger than I am...I’m an ectomorph....but I must warn you...
...I could drive a golf ball into orbit...NASA asked me to stop teeing the ball so high...:smile:

Challenge accepted,give me 60 mins:thumbup: Just one thing to consider as well - the speed of the cloth,its sometimes hard to compare results because someone has new Simonis 760 and the other one has 3 years old Simonis 860. Still i believe i can provide some shots long enough to not embarass myself

 

[zeeder]

Kind of a tricky. I don’t think you typically put three tips of side spin and give it the same stroke you would for a full table draw. You could, but it would be a bit wild. You probably wouldn’t get the kind of object ball throw action or rail action you’d expect because of all the additional factors. So typically the amount of sidespin tends to just be limited to tip placement for most shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I practice a power draw with extreme side all the time (Byrne's power pool workout shot 10) to see how well I'm hitting them but this is not a shot I routinely use. I was just a little confused at the implication that extra power/stroke speed didn't change the amount of spin on the ball the same way it does on a follow or draw shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

More speed/power doesn't equal more side spin?

It equals more RPMs, but also more speed (= the same spin-to-speed ratio).

More "action" (change of angle off a rail) is caused by greater spin-to-speed ratio, and that only changes with a farther-from-center hit on the CB (or by the CB's speed being reduced by something else, like hitting an OB or hitting low).

pj
chgo

 

[zeeder]

It equals more RPMs, but also more speed (= the same spin-to-speed ratio).

More "action" (change of angle off a rail) is caused by greater spin-to-speed ratio, and that only changes with a farther-from-center hit on the CB (or by the CB's speed being reduced by something else, like hitting an OB or hitting low).

pj
chgo

That makes sense. I guess I never think about anything other than how fast hitting off center makes the CB spin (RPM) which is what confused me about the implication that hitting it harder wouldn't affect this and I think of the "action" off the rail as more related to the speed and angle of the shot combined with the RPM of the spin on the ball.