Using full spin

[ShootingArts]

Yes, but, the great players are more likely to use side spin on some shots where the average player would not consider it. Not mentioned yet (I think) is the use of outside to avoid skid -- Sigel was a strong advocate of that.

Taught him everything he knows! Well, maybe not, especially since I never met Mike. However anybody that ever steps outside of a hothouse to play pool should know that outside spin will reduce or kill skid.

(general reply to topic)
I have realized that there is a large overlap between those thinking "full spin" is best and those saying you couldn't plan an inning before starting shooting and shoot your way through most innings without further thought to get back in line. I think the term needed here is QED.


Hu

 

[nataddrho]

Here is a good example of how max spin can be very useful. The blue shot uses top left and requires a medium to medium hard shot power to execute. The purple shot uses maximum left with almost no top spin and a soft to medium power to get to the same position. The blue shot has a lower percentage because the shot power makes the pocket smaller.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

For the same shots, exactly as often as any player.

pj
chgo

Not really though. How does that energy transfer work PJ? Is the most left/right that can be transferred or max throw spot the same on every shot at 1-1/2 tips on a 3 tip scale. Or does it work like a sliding scale depending on cut angle? So a better player will only need as much side spin as is necessary to transfer the most kinetic energy to the OB while still pocketing it on a given shot at many times. If you want to slow down the cb with inside off the rail is one thing. But going max spin on a “touch” shot is going to require you to hit it harder and slow down the CB with inside. Rather than playing near the best spot for energy transfer to the OB and ending in the same spot without slowing down the CB

And also I’m pretty sure max exit angle is achieved well before full spin on almost any pocketed shot using only outside due in part to the same line of thinking and also throw will come into play on it. Full spin reduces friction. You need friction to acheive movement to the side

There you go Shooter08. My thoughts are down now.

 

[Island Drive]

How often do you take your English to the extreme? And how often do the best players?

So there is all this talk about LD shafts and CF but how often do they really come in handy? Thats the sub question to the question. Sure you can impose more spin with less deflection, but what I’m asking is how often players actually use enough left/right to even create much deflection? I’ve personally mentioned that from a confidence standpoint shooting a cut down the rail with outside does seem to be easier with my keilwood shaft. But shooting it with inside is easier with a regular. Thats like yin/yang and an even trade off though. And full English which I rarely use on those.


Personally I almost never use much left/right. Maybe a tip and an half at most. Usually around a tip. Anything more rarely comes up in a game these days because the shots are better planned now, and I have to actually adjust my stance if playing max left/right. So what is that a 2mm deflection or something? Less maybe? Can anyone tell the difference between 2mm and 1.6mm from 2 feet away? Even on a force follow I don’t really hit follow to the limit. Two tips works fine. Occasional full on 9 footer. Maybe when I draw I use max sometimes no matter the table size. Thats with an 11.75mm tip for reference.

Now it might be that I’m older now, or maybe better now. But I can also remember being a hard core banger and everything was full left/right. It almost never comes up these days. Usually only need it on certain kicks, sometimes on banks and that’s about it. How much will deflection even matter on a kick shot? Then there are some close softer hits that need extreme. But once again does deflection even come into play on those type shots?

Now don’t get me wrong here I see a lot of players use a lot of English on a lot of shots. But honestly not so much from the better shooters. Maybe 25% of them use a lot of spin regularly.


So. I ranted a bit. How often do players in general use max spin and do most better players use max spin frequently?

Subquestion:How often does deflection/shaft type even come into play when you are a great player?

Extreme outside/horizontal 9 or 3 o'clock cueing.... or extreme spinning the cue ball when applying outside cueing?

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Extreme outside/horizontal 9 or 3 o'clock cueing.... or extreme spinning the cue ball when applying outside cueing?

Left/right. Without regulating it with top and bottom.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I added the second part after left and right because it was more geared towards left/right. you can’t play full left or right when you’re playing top or bottom too. Even though there is an extreme for those also. It’s more on the matter of when major deflection comes up in games

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

In my experience you don't have to be that far off center to create a good deal of deflection, especially with a standard maple shaft.

See I never notice much deflection with a tip of English. But also mentioned in a post last week was a regular shaft under 12mm is naturally lower deflection. I shoot with an 11.75, and an 11.5. So maybe that’s why

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not really though. How does that energy transfer work PJ? Is the most left/right that can be transferred or max throw spot the same on every shot at 1-1/2 tips on a 3 tip scale. Or does it work like a sliding scale depending on cut angle?

Remember, I said "for the same shot".

pj
chgo

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

Do you know I kind of have to check myself on this one after reading through posts. I guess deflection really does play a big factor in kick shots. That is when you’re likely going to be hitting the ball with more speed and possibly using the most spin giving less time for the CB to swerve back before contact. Us maple shaft minds don’t really pay attention to deflection on those. Then again maybe the LD minds don’t either. As Mitch mentioned. It’s kind of engraved into our brains based off what we are used to.

When I go to hit a 1-rail kick shot, or a 1 railer with short 2nd rail, and the OB is close to the pocket or on the rail near a diamond. I literally look at it. Then get down and shoot it. I play those shots and some banks faster than any other shots and make a lot of them. Sometimes the brain just knows and you-just gotta go with it. I actually miss more often when taking my time on them.

 

[nataddrho]

You get to a point eventually, and I’m speaking for all cue sports, where you develop an awareness for whether or not you are violating your brain’s solution that it gave you. It takes a lot of practice to feel this red flag go up and to have the discipline to reset. All of the other fundamental stuff you practiced falls into the background. Squirt, swerve, deflection, stance, alignment, aiming, whatever, shouldn’t be a conscious thought, because if it is it may cause a red flag.

You can pick a couple of things to consciously focus on. I always choose to consciously focus on the cue ball tangent line, and consciously reducing body English as much as possible on every shot.

As for spin, during practice sessions you can practice families of shots. The combination of what the cue ball feels like when you hit it with a lot of spin, and the expected result.

 

[3kushn]

Extreme outside/horizontal 9 or 3 o'clock cueing.... or extreme spinning the cue ball when applying outside cueing?

Wonder what you're all talking about here. Are you talking about the CB? And using spin for position? Or what?

Lately on my 3C table I'm experimenting with Center Ball (vertical axis). Mostly with thin hits and speeds.

I'm assuming we're talking about the CB here and not spinning/throwing an OB.
Am I wrong about the topic?

 

[Tin Man]

In my experience, the majority of pool players never try to spin the ball significantly. They have no idea what can be done. They overlook relatively easy plays because of that lack of knowledge/technique.

100% agreed!!! Half of my students tell me they never in their life would have ever hit the cue ball where I want them to if I hadn't been there with them forcing their hand. One thing I often have to do is place a blocker ball in front of the cue ball to prevent them steering back towards center. They just have no idea how far off center they can hit.

One reason for this is 'tip scatter'. I heard Mike Page use this term first. The idea is that no one hits exactly where they are aiming on the cue ball. If we shot 100 shots and you could see the shotgun scatter of our different tip impacts on the cue ball it would form a small circle. For some it is half the size of a dime. For some it is the size of a quarter. For some a half dollar.

Mike Page made the point that we each have our own maximum off center as defined by our tip accuracy. If we aimed at the miscue limit we would miscue half the time, i.e. the half of our shots that erred outside the miscue limit. So we all have to aim the radius of our scatter inside the miscue limit so that 99%+ of our shots are good hits.

In short, the better our tip accuracy the further from center the miscue limit becomes. Most players have poor tip accuracy and are very limited with the spin they can apply, be it backspin or sidespin. Of course with backspin this creates a negative loop. They aren't drawing enough so they increase power, this increase of power makes their tip scatter worse, they then have to aim closer to center. Soon players are shooting one tip low at break speed to draw the ball.

The key is to reduce cue power and improve tip scatter to unlock new parts of the cue ball where it reacts more lively and with more control. Easy to say but old habits die hard. That is why when I teach draw I often lay my break cue across the table with the butt on top of the rail and the tip below the opposite rail forming a ramp. I put the cue ball in front of the break cue so they have to cue underneath it. This forces them to hit accurately and prevents them from shying away towards center. Pretty soon they can hit the right spot on the cue ball. Same with my blocker ball for sidespin.

There are many ways to help people improve their tip scatter but it starts with an awareness that there is a lot more meat on the bone than people realize, or in other words there is a lot more cue ball out there than most people think.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

100% agreed!!! Half of my students tell me they never in their life would have ever hit the cue ball where I want them to if I hadn't been there with them forcing their hand. One thing I often have to do is place a blocker ball in front of the cue ball to prevent them steering back towards center. They just have no idea how far off center they can hit.

One reason for this is 'tip scatter'. I heard Mike Page use this term first. The idea is that no one hits exactly where they are aiming on the cue ball. If we shot 100 shots and you could see the shotgun scatter of our different tip impacts on the cue ball it would form a small circle. For some it is half the size of a dime. For some it is the size of a quarter. For some a half dollar.

Mike Page made the point that we each have our own maximum off center as defined by our tip accuracy. If we aimed at the miscue limit we would miscue half the time, i.e. the half of our shots that erred outside the miscue limit. So we all have to aim the radius of our scatter inside the miscue limit so that 99%+ of our shots are good hits.

In short, the better our tip accuracy the further from center the miscue limit becomes. Most players have poor tip accuracy and are very limited with the spin they can apply, be it backspin or sidespin. Of course with backspin this creates a negative loop. They aren't drawing enough so they increase power, this increase of power makes their tip scatter worse, they then have to aim closer to center. Soon players are shooting one tip low at break speed to draw the ball.

The key is to reduce cue power and improve tip scatter to unlock new parts of the cue ball where it reacts more lively and with more control. Easy to say but old habits die hard. That is why when I teach draw I often lay my break cue across the table with the butt on top of the rail and the tip below the opposite rail forming a ramp. I put the cue ball in front of the break cue so they have to cue underneath it. This forces them to hit accurately and prevents them from shying away towards center. Pretty soon they can hit the right spot on the cue ball. Same with my blocker ball for sidespin.

There are many ways to help people improve their tip scatter but it starts with an awareness that there is a lot more meat on the bone than people realize, or in other words there is a lot more cue ball out there than most people think.

That’s some cool info.

I’m the a-hole at the hall that will play all follows if somebody relies on their draw and no spin against spinners. And vice-versa. I think it’s funny because it can actually throw people off their game. Like when I’m playing a draw shot guy and an easy draw comes up and I follow 2 rails instead. It gets some weird looks for sure. I’m talking against 600’s too. Occasionally, im kind of trying to help them out at the same time. But don’t tell them that. Then they’ll know I enjoy playing them.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... One reason for this is 'tip scatter'. I heard Mike Page use this term first. The idea is that no one hits exactly where they are aiming on the cue ball. ...

I think a very large reason for the reluctance to spin the ball is that they have never learned to chalk. The evidence of this is on the tables in every pool hall: chalks drilled down the center. The stupidity of the Borer People on display. Not having ever learned to chalk, any venture away from the center of the ball results in a miscue. Their arms learn not to hit there.

 

[Tin Man]

I think a very large reason for the reluctance to spin the ball is that they have never learned to chalk. The evidence of this is on the tables in every pool hall: chalks drilled down the center. The stupidity of the Borer People on display. Not having ever learned to chalk, any venture away from the center of the ball results in a miscue. Their arms learn not to hit there.

And once again I am reminded of entire oceans of players I rarely cross paths with.

 

[Shooter08]

And once again I am reminded of entire oceans of players I rarely cross paths with.

I like what Ray told Lou, deflection is not going away, live w it!

 

[Island Drive]

Wonder what you're all talking about here. Are you talking about the CB? And using spin for position? Or what?

Lately on my 3C table I'm experimenting with Center Ball (vertical axis). Mostly with thin hits and speeds.

I'm assuming we're talking about the CB here and not spinning/throwing an OB.
Am I wrong about the topic?

WW. said
''How often do you take your English to the extreme?''

Just trying to comprehend his perception of his wording......... Extreme.
Extreme/Outside cueing
extreme spinning of cue ball
A combination of both
Understanding this helps.

When I see Shaw draw a ball 18 feet to get shape, that's Extreme.
He had to do it because he's straight in and unable to move whitey left or right to gain position.

All top pros, when pockets are small stay away from Extreme, unless they are very close to their work.
But like filler, prefer to work the cue ball middle, which is much easier when your swing hits ''straight'' thru the shot.

bm

 

[The_JV]

How often do you take your English to the extreme?

When required.

It's a tool in the bag. I pull it out when necessary.

 

[nataddrho]

And once again I am reminded of entire oceans of players I rarely cross paths with.

I also often forget that many are reluctant to use any type of side spin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Mike Page made the point that we each have our own maximum off center as defined by our tip accuracy. If we aimed at the miscue limit we would miscue half the time, i.e. the half of our shots that erred outside the miscue limit. So we all have to aim the radius of our scatter inside the miscue limit so that 99%+ of our shots are good hits.

In short, the better our tip accuracy the further from center the miscue limit becomes.

Yep. Here's a post of mine on that topic from a few years ago, comparing two players with different skill levels: the small red dots are where the player aims to hit the CB - the small blue dots are where he actually does hit it. The higher skilled player can aim closer to the miscue limit (the circles) without accidentally stepping over the line.