Using full spin
- Thread starter Willowbrook Wolfy
- Start date
Willowbrook Wolfy
Going pro
I’m talking these two shots at 1:07:30. A lot of people would’ve juiced up the 1 ball and the 6 ball. I didn’t play full on the 6 and got great results off the head rail. And didn’t use any side spin on the 1. On a 9’ might’ve needed “the juice” for the 6 ball shot. But in this case on the 7’- Just enough spin to get on the 8….That was a break and run and I did juice up one ball in the run with draw though. All in all. Probably my best rack of the tournament.
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I highly respect Mark Wilson but I have to say that these pictures don't indicate what I found when testing about a dozen people or so from bangers to A players or shortstops. I didn't tell them what I was testing and I set up a medium difficulty or a little harder shot, a seven foot or a little more cut shot into a corner but not a razor thin cut. Just tough enough to keep everyone focused on the shot instead of procedure. One of the bangers that I knew only played a few times a year hit the cue ball with amazing consistency. He would have met or surpassed the elite pro scatter in these images. Nobody with thirty minutes of coaching would have the scatter of the first picture, few amateurs that play a few times a month hit as poorly as the second image.
Speaking for myself, when I am out of stroke I am going to hit about an eighth inch high and a sixteenth left. I will do that very consistently until I get back in stroke.
I’m talking these two shots at 1:07:30. A lot of people would’ve juiced up the 1 ball and the 6 ball. I didn’t play full on the 6 and got great results off the head rail. And didn’t use any side spin on the 1. On a 9’ might’ve needed “the juice” for the 6 ball shot. But in this case on the 7’- Just enough spin to get on the 8….That was a break and run and I did juice up one ball in the run with draw though. All in all. Probably my best rack of the tournament.
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The first two shots were shot so slowly that sidespin or collision induced spin had little or no effect by the time they reached a rail. The six illustrates a ball with significant sidespin hitting a rail. Rarely a need to go with "full spin" flirting with a miscue. Whatever you had on the six is usually plenty. I try to reserve what is being called full spin in this thread for wide open tables and showboating. Once in awhile it is needed because of what an opponent leaves but I consider other options first.
That was nice shooting by the way!
Hu
I don’t want to say pros never use maximum spin. And I don’t want to say they always use maximum spin. I think a good question is this. On average in a race to 10 of 9-ball do you think a pro uses maximum sidespin? 3 time per rack? 1 time per rack? 0.2 times per rack? 0.005 times per rack?
I know it’s something they should have available when needed. Isn’t it fair to say they are intending to play patterns where maximum spin should almost never be needed and unless the table lays extremely funny or they messed up and need a recovery shot do they pull it out?
And how often is max spin used to manipulate short shots versus long shots? Are they max spinning any time it feels natural or are they avoiding it like the plague once the shot is considered a long pot?
And even then, what is maximum sidespin? Are we talking two or three tips out or are we talking all the way up to the miscue limit? Are they trying to squeeze every last ounce of rotational energy out to the true maximum possible, wishing their chalk, tip and shaft could just drive out a little more if it would let them? Or are they picking a trusted well-known safe tip offset that would seem excessive to an amateur but is actually a specifically familiar amount of rotation because it’s specific to the shot and outcome they are attempting?
I know it’s something they should have available when needed. Isn’t it fair to say they are intending to play patterns where maximum spin should almost never be needed and unless the table lays extremely funny or they messed up and need a recovery shot do they pull it out?
And how often is max spin used to manipulate short shots versus long shots? Are they max spinning any time it feels natural or are they avoiding it like the plague once the shot is considered a long pot?
And even then, what is maximum sidespin? Are we talking two or three tips out or are we talking all the way up to the miscue limit? Are they trying to squeeze every last ounce of rotational energy out to the true maximum possible, wishing their chalk, tip and shaft could just drive out a little more if it would let them? Or are they picking a trusted well-known safe tip offset that would seem excessive to an amateur but is actually a specifically familiar amount of rotation because it’s specific to the shot and outcome they are attempting?
Max spin/has max speed. I'd say Matt in a race to ten my guess on a 9', maybe a couple times.
Usually 4 rails when the spin/ begins to release/un-wind.... after the 4th rail on a 9 footer.
When the cue ball begins its natural roll.
Usually 4 rails when the spin/ begins to release/un-wind.... after the 4th rail on a 9 footer.
When the cue ball begins its natural roll.
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That raises an interesting point. Clearly the fastest you could spin the CB is directly proportional to how quickly you get the cue through the ball. That said, I believe it's easier to produce 'max spin' like results while stroking hard, especially when contacting a rail. More speed, more forward momentum, more friction between rail/CB, more effective results from english.
Low speed, high rotation doesn't have nearly the effect high speed, low rotation does after rail contact.
Max english/spin regardless of speed requires mis-cue limit tip placement. However you can get away with safety margin when shooting hard. Conveniently when a typical player's mechanics break down.
Max spin...?..., regardless of speed? For me..., maybe once every few sets.
I think people underestimate what "max spin" really is...and overestimate its actual usage. If we define max spin as sidespin approaching the miscue limit, then no...we don't use max spin often at all...even if we'd like to think we do.
The once-in-a-blue-moon shot where "max spin" is actually necessary is when you attempt to throw in cut shot close to 90 degrees. These shots don't come up often, but when you do execute them you are actually on the verge of miscuing (and in a fraction of the case we do end up miscuing). For typical positions shots, we don't approach this extreme amount of sidespin at all.
Having said that, I do spin the ball a lot. Probably more than I need to.
The once-in-a-blue-moon shot where "max spin" is actually necessary is when you attempt to throw in cut shot close to 90 degrees. These shots don't come up often, but when you do execute them you are actually on the verge of miscuing (and in a fraction of the case we do end up miscuing). For typical positions shots, we don't approach this extreme amount of sidespin at all.
Having said that, I do spin the ball a lot. Probably more than I need to.
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I highlighted in your quote what I think we're talking about. Max spin doesn't mean to me 99.9% of potential rotations. But there is a sweet spot when you get past 1-2 tips where you just get a substantial amount of zip on the cue ball that many amateurs never achieve.
And you are correct that this is more common on routine shots. I think power, distance, and spin all make pocketing more difficult. Most of the time I am using extreme spins it is on easier shots, not far away, without excessive power. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions where the table demands you use it on more difficult shots as well, but those would be exceptions.
So maybe a better question would be "How often do top pros use more spin that an APA 4-5 ever tries to use?" And playing 9 ball I would speculate the answer to that would be 1-2 times a rack. This may not seem like a huge problem for the amateurs, it's like 'hey, we're hitting 80-90% of the shots the same, not bad!' But the problem is that not all shots are created equally. 9 ball isn't 9 hard shots. It's often two groups of four easy shots connected by a tough maneuver. They are missing the tools needed to solve those problems. Similar with 8 ball. Players who run their open balls leaving only one object ball left that is tied up aren't 6/7 of the way through the rack. They are by ball count, but not in terms of what percentage of the problems on the table they have solved. I have found lack of potent side spin and understanding it's applications to be among the biggest leaks at the the 450-550 Fargo Rate range.
Completely agree... There's a misconception about "max spin", how it manifests and the ability to generated it reliably.
There's diminishing returns as far as spin induced throw are concerned. Max spin doesn't translate to maximum throw. At least that's what I've been lead to believe. I don't have any evidence to back that up.
Personally as I approach extremely thin cuts I reduce the amount of english I place on the CB. Accounting for squirt becomes more difficult and I rather ensure the hit.
It’s a good clarification because sometimes people sell chalk, tips, shafts, and techniques based on “WHOA! LOok How much SPIN you Can GET with this whizbang piece of equipment”. And sometimes people respond to that saying professionals aren’t trying to use that kind of 99.9% of potential rotations. And then this discussion ensues about how pros do use some spin on every shot and heavy spin more often than amateurs would think. And then you kinda realize everyone is having a different conversation.
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You're correct that for most small to moderate cut shots, max spin doesn't translate to max throw. But as the cut angle increases, the amount of spin required for perfect gearing english increases...and in order to throw the OB (effectively increase the cut angle), the CB spin has to exceed the spin for perfect gearing english. For extreme cuts close to 90 degrees, you pretty much have to load up on absolute max spin to be ensure the OB throws in the correct direction. If the CB spin is smaller than what is required for perfect gearing english, then you'll effectively have greater CIT (contact induced throw) and throw the OB in the opposite direction (undercut the shot).
Now this is a shot with "max spin" (courtesy of Bob Jewett)...
I use maximum spin only on one particular shot. I am lined up to a pocket but off about 10 degrees, give or take. There is the edge of an intervening ball which will not let me cut my object ball. Slow speed and maximum spin aimed directly at the OB will throw about 10 degrees. Works 60 percent of the time. Slight elevation (swerve) will help avoid the intervening ball.
less spin throws more
Max off center is useful in kicking. It provides consistent cue ball action off the first cushion. That's big.
A couple of benchmarks:
With low/moderate speed (more speed = less throw)...
- Max throw for a straight shot (no cut angle) is achieved with 50% of maximum spin.
- Max throw for a half ball hit (30° cut) is achieved with no spin.
pj
chgo
Anyone who says they stay close to the center of the cue ball, either -- doesn't know what they do, or they don't play very well.
Period.
Period.
My "old newbie" journey with spin is just a few years old, and boy has it been eye-opening.
I've mentioned before: I got back into pool 2 1/2 years ago after a 30-year absence and have been relearning the game. I did use spin when I was young and a had a table at home. But my memory is vague and I don't remember how much. I did do a lot of crazy experimentation, though.
It's been different this time around. I have learned spin purposefully.
When I started playing again in late 2021, I almost entirely used center ball. Mostly follow, center and stun - anything more than a short draw was impossible for me. I didn't really understand the mechanics of draw. (Heck, I didn't even fully understand dead center, either!)
This time around I was determined to learn the fundamentals. Started out with DrCue (by accident really), then to DrDave, Sharivari, FX Billiards, Niels Feijin, etc. and finally Tor Lowry. He's had the biggest impact.
The big breakthrough came after I did centerball training based on a long Lowry video. His view was you couldn't understand and master spin unless you mastered centerball. You had to know where the ball would go with follow, stun and draw before you could figure out how spin would affect the path.
After that, I turned to "all ball" training. For a year and a half, I spent hours doing 30 pages of clock drills designed by Lowry.
I would do every shot using 10 clock locations: High, center, stun, draw, HL, HR, L, R, LR and LL.
These drills really opened my eyes to what the cue ball could do. Sometimes it would end up in very different spots. I realized I could get to almost any region of the table using the cueball like a clock.
NONE of this would have been known to me unless I specifically sought to train myself. Nobody would have taught me, either.
That is why most players don't use spin or understand it much. If you want to use it and use it well, every player needs guidance, training and lots of informed practice. Otherwise they see spin simply as a chance to miscue.
Even still, it's only been in the last few months that I have begun to instinctively understand when to use spin and to be able to read its likely path. I am sure all you experienced players remember that feeling.
For so long, I had no feeling intuitively about spin. Then I did.
How much spin do I use? Generally half a tip to a tip when I do, but only when I know I need it to get to the spot I envision the cue ball going to.
As Tinman noted, spin is ideal to get the ball to travel further with a softer shot. This realization only came to me recently. The danger, of course, is that the cue ball can easily overrun where you want it to end up.
I also find myself using pure left or right spin for short, soft shots to open my position window up and retain it for longer.
Being new to "informed" spin, I almost certainly overuse it. I may add just a hair of it on lots of mostly centerball shots when it might not be entirely necessary. I may be pressing at getting "ideal" position.
It's like a new toy in many ways.
But what Tory Lowry showed me is that centerball can often get you to the same spot as spin, especially once you get good at draw.
No need to complicate the game - which a lot of players definitely often do - when simple works best.
I've mentioned before: I got back into pool 2 1/2 years ago after a 30-year absence and have been relearning the game. I did use spin when I was young and a had a table at home. But my memory is vague and I don't remember how much. I did do a lot of crazy experimentation, though.
It's been different this time around. I have learned spin purposefully.
When I started playing again in late 2021, I almost entirely used center ball. Mostly follow, center and stun - anything more than a short draw was impossible for me. I didn't really understand the mechanics of draw. (Heck, I didn't even fully understand dead center, either!)
This time around I was determined to learn the fundamentals. Started out with DrCue (by accident really), then to DrDave, Sharivari, FX Billiards, Niels Feijin, etc. and finally Tor Lowry. He's had the biggest impact.
The big breakthrough came after I did centerball training based on a long Lowry video. His view was you couldn't understand and master spin unless you mastered centerball. You had to know where the ball would go with follow, stun and draw before you could figure out how spin would affect the path.
After that, I turned to "all ball" training. For a year and a half, I spent hours doing 30 pages of clock drills designed by Lowry.
I would do every shot using 10 clock locations: High, center, stun, draw, HL, HR, L, R, LR and LL.
These drills really opened my eyes to what the cue ball could do. Sometimes it would end up in very different spots. I realized I could get to almost any region of the table using the cueball like a clock.
NONE of this would have been known to me unless I specifically sought to train myself. Nobody would have taught me, either.
That is why most players don't use spin or understand it much. If you want to use it and use it well, every player needs guidance, training and lots of informed practice. Otherwise they see spin simply as a chance to miscue.
Even still, it's only been in the last few months that I have begun to instinctively understand when to use spin and to be able to read its likely path. I am sure all you experienced players remember that feeling.
For so long, I had no feeling intuitively about spin. Then I did.
How much spin do I use? Generally half a tip to a tip when I do, but only when I know I need it to get to the spot I envision the cue ball going to.
As Tinman noted, spin is ideal to get the ball to travel further with a softer shot. This realization only came to me recently. The danger, of course, is that the cue ball can easily overrun where you want it to end up.
I also find myself using pure left or right spin for short, soft shots to open my position window up and retain it for longer.
Being new to "informed" spin, I almost certainly overuse it. I may add just a hair of it on lots of mostly centerball shots when it might not be entirely necessary. I may be pressing at getting "ideal" position.
It's like a new toy in many ways.
But what Tory Lowry showed me is that centerball can often get you to the same spot as spin, especially once you get good at draw.
No need to complicate the game - which a lot of players definitely often do - when simple works best.