Vacuum kiln

R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've read a number of times on this forum of how some of the cue makers refuse to use vacuum kiln dried wood as they feel it changes or destroys the wood at the cellular level. I often hear about tonal woods as they supposedly make better playing cues. This may be but I don't really know. I am sitting here at present in front of the Boob and the show playing is "How It's Made". It's really an interesting show if you are curious about how things are made, which I am. I don't watch it that much as I don't ever read schedules.

But, to get to the point of the thread. Tonight's show is the building of Gibson Guitars. It shows the process from start to finish. What they showed was that they use a large vacuum kiln to dry their woods before processing. A lot of the wood looked larger than what we use (up to 3 inch or so in thickness). Now my question is: Why would Gibson, one of the finest musical instrument makers in the world, use a vacuum kiln that supposedly destroys the fine tonal qualities of the wood they use in their musical instruments? I thought the whole point of using tonal wood was so that musical instruments would have a better tone. Why would they want to destroy it's tonal properties?

I say if vacuum kilns are good enough for Gibson guitars then they are good enough for RHNCUE shafts!!!

Dick

P.S. Let the debates begin :) :) :)
 
Dammit! I JUST missed that program. I wanted to watch it...and I forgot to TIVO the damned thing. I find it mighty interesting. Pardon my ignorance...but what is something's "tonal" quality? How it sounds? I can see where this would be important in a guirtar...but not so much a cue. I don't care if my cue sounds like a glass being broken everytime I strike a ball as long I'm getting action on the cue and the balls are fallin' in the holes. LOL
 
the way i understand it is that vacuum kiln drying is good if it is done right.however,it is very difficult to do it right and often times wood is changing structurally when something goes wrong or if the process isn't done exactly right.

i don't think it is as consistent as conventional kiln dried wood on the whole.
 
I have a bunch of vacuum kilned dowels ( now cones ).
I'm very happy with them.
They have great color and tone.
 
i won't say from where b/c i might to try to return them,but i recently bought a batch of vaccum dried shafts that were supposed to be the premium grade,15+ rpi and dead straight grain.

the grain is straight and they are high ring count,but after they sat in the shop for about 5 weeks i cut them from 1" dowells to .960" and .600".this is how i always make the first cut and have never had one shaft warp on me.i have made over 50 shafts to date.usually i make that first cut and they are straight and they stay straight.

i went to make the second cut today on this batch of shafts and 90% of them bounced.i only bought 30 shaft as i was checking them out.i think 2 spun dead straight and the rest bounced,most bounced pretty bad and 2 of them are so warped that they will be cut in half before they get cut straight.

this is my first batch of vacuum kiln dried shafts and i know people say vacuum is good,but soemtimes i guess people just don't know how to do it right.

i made the cut today,but if they bounce next time i spin them i am sending them back.
 
Retail1LO said:
Dammit! I JUST missed that program. I wanted to watch it...and I forgot to TIVO the damned thing. I find it mighty interesting. Pardon my ignorance...but what is something's "tonal" quality? How it sounds? I can see where this would be important in a guirtar...but not so much a cue. I don't care if my cue sounds like a glass being broken everytime I strike a ball as long I'm getting action on the cue and the balls are fallin' in the holes. LOL
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Look at it this way. Lack of tone could be described as dead. The same tonal qualities that helps sound resonation in a musical instrument might provide good feedback and feel to the shooting hand. It isn't really about the sound the cue makes when hit, it is the association of a live piece of wood.

Kelly
 
Kelly_Guy said:
Look at it this way. Lack of tone could be described as dead. The same tonal qualities that helps sound resonation in a musical instrument might provide good feedback and feel to the shooting hand. It isn't really about the sound the cue makes when hit, it is the association of a live piece of wood.

Kelly
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Thank you, Kelly...for that explanation. I need to hit with a live cue and a dead cue, I imagine, to truly appreciate the difference between a cue with good tone...and one without.
 
I've been through about 5,000 shafts. Air dryed, regular kiln dried and vacuum dried. I like the air dried best but you can't get it.

The percentage of shafts the are prone to warp is the same no matter what the drying method. If you have shatfs that warp between cuts, you are going too fast. They hadn't reached equilibrium with your shop environment either when you cut them or when you went back to them. Take 4-6 months between cuts and don't cut so much off. My first cut gives me a .900 small end and it is at least 3 cuts before I ever touch the joint end.

I take off ,060 per pass except for the last three passes.

I figure that it takes an average of 5 years from arrival to completion for all of the maples in my shop. Less for the exotics

Tonal qualities are important, sticks can be too loud and too quiet. It's part of the game.

Kiln operators, both vacuum and regular have many opportunities to mess up the wood. f they ship it dry,(8%) moisture content, that is too dry and they should have brought it up tp 12% BUy a loy of extras and keep building up your inventory.
 
i agree that air dried is the best and yes they seem impossible to find.

on the other hand i really don't think it is necessary to wait 5 years before sending out a shaft.if that were the case anyone who wants to start making cues has to wait 5 years before they sell their first cue.sounds like over,overkill.

according to your theaory you are saying the shaft dowells i have are too dry,they are from north of me.if i get them at maybe 7-8% and maybe they go up to 10% in the shop.i don't see that taking 6 months and this is the first shaft i have ever had do this,and 95% of them did it.i think there has to be more to it than that.
 
Paul Dayton said:
I've been through about 5,000 shafts. Air dryed, regular kiln dried and vacuum dried. I like the air dried best but you can't get it.

The percentage of shafts the are prone to warp is the same no matter what the drying method. If you have shatfs that warp between cuts, you are going too fast. They hadn't reached equilibrium with your shop environment either when you cut them or when you went back to them. Take 4-6 months between cuts and don't cut so much off. My first cut gives me a .900 small end and it is at least 3 cuts before I ever touch the joint end.

I take off ,060 per pass except for the last three passes.

I figure that it takes an average of 5 years from arrival to completion for all of the maples in my shop. Less for the exotics

Tonal qualities are important, sticks can be too loud and too quiet. It's part of the game.

Kiln operators, both vacuum and regular have many opportunities to mess up the wood. f they ship it dry,(8%) moisture content, that is too dry and they should have brought it up tp 12% BUy a loy of extras and keep building up your inventory.
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That is very similar to the schedule I have decided on. When I get dowels in, I let them free stand in a rack for a long time (a year++ with virtually no climate control), and swap ends in the rack periodically. Many of them move a little before I ever make a first cut, but so far so good after that. I also make a moderate first cut compared to most, roughly 1.00 to .80, and it also takes me several passes to completely reach the joint end establishing the taper after my initial straight taper cut. I make no claim it is the best way, my friend and mentor does it differently, just what seems to work for me so far.

I have some traditional, dehumidification, and vacuum dried blanks. Some of the vacuum blanks are darker than the dehumidification. Mason may be right about vacuum kiln drying being more risky, I don't know. But I believe the source I got my vacuum shafts from is doing things right. In the end, if a shaft I make doesn't play up to snuff, it won't get sent out regardless of how it was dried.

Kelly
 
I do know this........my very good friend whom I trust with any of my questions about wood or woods works in a state forestry lab.
This is what he has told me about vacuum dried wood. There are three main reasons most all wood will eventually be vacuum dried on the larger commercial scale. First is because of the vacuum, length of time in the kiln is cut down. Second is because the wood is put in a vacuum, less heat is required to cook it to reach the same % as a conventional. Third is very simply because of one and two, it costs less to produce a usable kiln dried wood.
Not saying there won't be conventional dried available in the future but like good Dalbergia Nigra, it will also be hard to locate except in a smaller quantity.


<~~~that's my story and I'm sticking to it...............
 
We do not kiln dry any of our woods, kiln drying (force drying) harms the resonating quality of wood, we have done tests that have proven this. We let our wood air dry in our "Dry Room" (air exchanger that removes the stall air and replaces it with fresh dry air), this process takes longer but we find that it produces a more stable seasoned wood. When the wood is removed it has a moisture content of 6%.
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i got some boards from this company a few months ago and cut them into shafts.they sell air dried Sugar Maple in board form.they have been cut twice like the boards i mentioned ealier,but they stayed dead nut straight.i should have some shafts of this wood to test in another 2-3 months.i will give a report if they play or fell any different form kiln or vacuum kiln dried wood.they look about 5 shades darker and actually have a pink hue to them.
 
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Research I have done revealed to me that there are seemingly countless styles of vacuum kilns, for countless applications. They are expensive to have except in the situation of very large outfits that move a lot of lumber. There are also micro-wave assist vacuums that cook the wood at intense temperatures. It's a new science with a lot of potential, but so far my experience with vacuum dried wood is not the same quality as air dried & conventional kiln dried wood. It seems softer to me. But then again, there are countless types of kilns period. There must be 100 methods of air drying. I have been doing some research on kilns, trying to find the right plans for building my own specifically to do cue maple. So far all I have done is confuse myself.
 
masonh said:
i won't say from where b/c i might to try to return them,but i recently bought a batch of vaccum dried shafts that were supposed to be the premium grade,15+ rpi and dead straight grain.

the grain is straight and they are high ring count,but after they sat in the shop for about 5 weeks i cut them from 1" dowells to .960" and .600".this is how i always make the first cut and have never had one shaft warp on me.i have made over 50 shafts to date.usually i make that first cut and they are straight and they stay straight.

i went to make the second cut today on this batch of shafts and 90% of them bounced.i only bought 30 shaft as i was checking them out.i think 2 spun dead straight and the rest bounced,most bounced pretty bad and 2 of them are so warped that they will be cut in half before they get cut straight.

this is my first batch of vacuum kiln dried shafts and i know people say vacuum is good,but soemtimes i guess people just don't know how to do it right.

i made the cut today,but if they bounce next time i spin them i am sending them back.
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I don't know what part of the country you are located so I don't know your general humidity conditions. On my first pass I take my tip end down to 19mm or .750. My next pass down to 17mm, next 16 mm next 15mm, next 14.5, next 14mm, next 13.5. This is where I leave my shaft blanks hang until needed and made into a shaft and the final pass made. I wait a minimum of 6 weeks between passes so that means a minimum of one year from blank to shaft. Some folks do it faster and some take much longer but this has always worked good for me. I will also say that I've used nothing but vacuum kiln dried wood for at least 13 years with no warpage problem.

On an earlier thread some were talking about shafts that have been run through a doweler and coming out not straight. I don't know what the company that I buy from uses to make their blanks round but when I receive them they are straight and almost always stay that way. I do dip my shafts three times in Nelsonite. After the first, third and fifth pass.

On your timetable for shaft passes you must ask yourself has this same regime worked for you in the past? If it has then I would think it is the wood, not the rate of turning increments.. If they will take the wood back, which I very seriously doubt, I would try another dealer. If I have 5 shafts go south out of every hundred that I buy then I would be very surprised. Most of my rejects are from sugar or mineral marks. Usually still good shaft wood but to ugly for my tastes.

Dick
 
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qbilder said:
Research I have done revealed to me that there are seemingly countless styles of vacuum kilns, for countless applications. They are expensive to have except in the situation of very large outfits that move a lot of lumber. There are also micro-wave assist vacuums that cook the wood at intense temperatures. It's a new science with a lot of potential, but so far my experience with vacuum dried wood is not the same quality as air dried & conventional kiln dried wood. It seems softer to me. But then again, there are countless types of kilns period. There must be 100 methods of air drying. I have been doing some research on kilns, trying to find the right plans for building my own specifically to do cue maple. So far all I have done is confuse myself.
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Being in the SW, I would think maybe some type of solar arrangement may get the job done?
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Being in the SW, I would think maybe some type of solar arrangement may get the job done?
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Yeah, looking at that possibility. We don't lack the heat down here, nor the aridness. We usually have a tough time keeping wood from spider web cracking. Drying out happens fast out here, so slowing that process I think might be best. Today was nearly 90 with 9% humidity.
 
qbilder said:
Yeah, looking at that possibility. We don't lack the heat down here, nor the aridness. We usually have a tough time keeping wood from spider web cracking. Drying out happens fast out here, so slowing that process I think might be best. Today was nearly 90 with 9% humidity.
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Same here most times..........
I keep the shop closed tight and a humidifier running year round.
55% is target......
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Same here most times..........
I keep the shop closed tight and a humidifier running year round.
55% is target......
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How big is the dehumidifier?:eek:
How much water does that thing consume per month Dave?

I keep my final passes shafts in the closet where I have humidifier.
 
JoeyInCali said:
How big is the dehumidifier?:eek:
How much water does that thing consume per month Dave?

I keep my final passes shafts in the closet where I have humidifier.
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HUMIDIFIER..............geezzzzzsh........can't you follow directions?

I put about 5 gallons in it every 3-4 days.
 
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