Value of a Cue?

[runscott]

to add... what's really interesting also is the more expensive or valued a cue is perceived, most likely the less will be known about it's true market value. for some it could be "the sky's the limit", depending how many are aware of the sale of the item. sometimes when dealing with higher end big $ cues, depending on the cue of course, it might be better not to advertise on an open forum or auction site because this turns off some of the top collectors. some of them don't want many, if anyone, to know they bought the cue or even that it was exposed to so many before the news of it's availability got to them. that just leads to more questions which can lead back to the unveiling of their anonymity to the purchase. in these cases if all factors are good for the big time buyer he may pay a premium not expected for the "prize". it seems nutty but i've seen this a few times.

I found what you are saying to also be true in the vintage sports collectibles market - some very wealthy collectors would only buy from large auction houses....or sellers that they trusted with their privacy. However, if sold at auction the price would still be known, just not the winner's identity (or how many people he was bidding against.) In cases where the item was somewhat rare or didn't come up for auction often, you could have cases where two wealthy collectors both wanted the item badly, and price was (almost) no object. Future sellers would mistakenly view this anomaly as the new 'market value' of that item..and similar ones! Big mistake to do this if you end up buying a similar item for somewhere between 'real' market value, and the 'price realized' in the anomaly auction. I could see this happening with rare cues as well.

 

[skins]

I found what you are saying to also be true in the vintage sports collectibles market - some very wealthy collectors would only buy from large auction houses....or sellers that they trusted with their privacy. However, if sold at auction the price would still be known, just not the winner's identity (or how many people he was bidding against.) In cases where the item was somewhat rare or didn't come up for auction often, you could have cases where two wealthy collectors both wanted the item badly, and price was (almost) no object. Future sellers would mistakenly view this anomaly as the new 'market value' of that item..and similar ones! Big mistake to do this if you end up buying a similar item for somewhere between 'real' market value, and the 'price realized' in the anomaly auction. I could see this happening with rare cues as well.

i have seen about 5 or so auctions in the last couple years for very high end cues like G. Szamboti, Bushka, Kersenbrock ect... that were auctioned and the auctions were pulled early. now you'd think it was because the seller received an offer and sold it outside the auction but in at least three of these cases, the auctions were pulled due to the knowledge that a specific buyer wanted the cues but would not buy them if the auctions kept running.

 

[issycue]

i have seen about 5 or so auctions in the last couple years for very high end cues like G. Szamboti, Bushka, Kersenbrock ect... that were auctioned and the auctions were pulled early. now you'd think it was because the seller received an offer and sold it outside the auction but in at least three of these cases, the auctions were pulled due to the knowledge that a specific buyer wanted the cues but would not buy them if the auctions kept running.

in these cases, supply/demand rarely have much to do with determining value... opportunity and timing are more important. i.e., which auction house to use, what time of year, etc... and the strategy for finding or developing liquidity, is more important than pricing correctly.

one thing is for sure...eluding to prvious posters' posts...the market is saturated... nobody really knows what the value of my cues are, because unlike in a marketplace like the stockmarket, there is no efficiency in the cue market. That could work to my advantage, of course... and i'm sure that it does for many, especially those who have been collecting, trading, and dealing for a long time.

Perhaps this forum, and maybe some other internet sites or publications will help in providing relevant information about cuemakers, wood supply/demand, latest cue building technology, and perhaps even a method of exchaging cues regionally and regularly to get the cues into players who can trial and adequately comment on them. Testdrive loaner program, anyone?

Cheers, Paul.

 

[buddha162]

Roger, I would respect your judgement of Varney's cue pricing or value if you made your point objectively.

I think I am being very objective, at least in regards to that particular cue's value. If it were another cuemaker with the same relative status in the business, I would judge his value vs. asking price the same way. It might come out differently, that's all.

Varney's cue is $1000. Pruitt has a plain no-point fancy ring cue that is asking $1750. Perhaps if you bought Varney's cue and Pruitt's cue, you could make judgement on the price of each?

I'm glad you mentioned Prewitt, because I do think his plain jane cues are overpriced in terms of cue for the money. But, I recognize the obvious demand, which is directly related to Prewit's reputation as a cuemaker. I also recognize that those inlayed rings are extremely difficult to do, and that adds to the exclusivity and allure. I would consider 1800 too much to pay for me personally, but that isn't a commentary on his cues' value per se.

Now the Varney cue. He is pricing a plain (no inlay, no ivory) 4-pointer with ONE shaft at one thousand dollars, and he thinks he deserves more. I'll give two examples to show why this is an unrealistic price.

Basic 4 pointer from Mottey: 1500. This includes TWO shafts, Varney is only offering one...so subtract 200. This also includes ivory ferrules, not present in Varney's cue...conservatively subtract 150. This marks a 4-point Mottey with one shaft and phenolic ferrule at 1150.

Do you think Varney's cue can be competitive when it's priced at just 150 below a comparable Paul Mottey? I'm not talking about the one guy who took a few shots and fell in love, or the newb who thinks Allison Fisher plays with one of his sneaky petes, but rather competitiveness in the cue market as a whole.

Does the reputation/recognition gap between Kevin Varney and Paul Mottey translate into a mere $150 in value?

Now take Greg Kucharski, a relatively unknown CM from CT. I've heard of him years before Varney joined AZ (which is the first I've ever heard of Varney), visited Greg's booth at Valley Forge, and saw his cues displayed on classiccues.com. He does fantastic work.

His basic 4 pointer w/veneers? $600. Varney thinks his cue is a steal at $400 more. Again, is the reputation/recognition gap between Varney and Kucharski---if there is any---worth $400?

Bottom line is this: only a HANDFUL of cuemakers can price that cue at 1k and hope to sell, and Varney is not among that crowd. NO cuemaker I know of is pricing that cue at 2k; Varney claims there are several.

I really don't need to hold a Varney or play with one to talk about its value, I hope you can understand this.

-Roger

 

[Hidy Ho]

Whatever cues I have and am trying to sell are valuable.

Whatever cue you want to sell or trade to me are not

 

[issycue]

I think I am being very objective, at least in regards to that particular cue's value. If it were another cuemaker with the same relative status in the business, I would judge his value vs. asking price the same way. It might come out differently, that's all.



I'm glad you mentioned Prewitt, because I do think his plain jane cues are overpriced in terms of cue for the money. But, I recognize the obvious demand, which is directly related to Prewit's reputation as a cuemaker. I also recognize that those inlayed rings are extremely difficult to do, and that adds to the exclusivity and allure. I would consider 1800 too much to pay for me personally, but that isn't a commentary on his cues' value per se.

Now the Varney cue. He is pricing a plain (no inlay, no ivory) 4-pointer with ONE shaft at one thousand dollars, and he thinks he deserves more. I'll give two examples to show why this is an unrealistic price.

Basic 4 pointer from Mottey: 1500. This includes TWO shafts, Varney is only offering one...so subtract 200. This also includes ivory ferrules, not present in Varney's cue...conservatively subtract 150. This marks a 4-point Mottey with one shaft and phenolic ferrule at 1150.

Do you think Varney's cue can be competitive when it's priced at just 150 below a comparable Paul Mottey? I'm not talking about the one guy who took a few shots and fell in love, or the newb who thinks Allison Fisher plays with one of his sneaky petes, but rather competitiveness in the cue market as a whole.

Does the reputation/recognition gap between Kevin Varney and Paul Mottey translate into a mere $150 in value?

Now take Greg Kucharski, a relatively unknown CM from CT. I've heard of him years before Varney joined AZ (which is the first I've ever heard of Varney), visited Greg's booth at Valley Forge, and saw his cues displayed on classiccues.com. He does fantastic work.

His basic 4 pointer w/veneers? $600. Varney thinks his cue is a steal at $400 more. Again, is the reputation/recognition gap between Varney and Kucharski---if there is any---worth $400?

Bottom line is this: only a HANDFUL of cuemakers can price that cue at 1k and hope to sell, and Varney is not among that crowd. NO cuemaker I know of is pricing that cue at 2k; Varney claims there are several.

I really don't need to hold a Varney or play with one to talk about its value, I hope you can understand this.

-Roger

Okay Roger, thanks for your response.
--Paul.

 

[classiccues]

I understand what you are saying here, Joe. There are so many newer cuemakers on the scene currently, that the mind boggles with choices. Many are popular mainly regionally...and the reason for this is...most players are looking for just a nice, inexpensive cue to play with, and if a custom maker can come in under a production cue price, they're going to go for it. Also, often immediately available cues (instant gratification) are limited in these areas, and so, when a cuemaker walks into a tourney and sells everything in his case, it's all these players know or are exposed to. Why are they going to pay 200.00+ for say, a McDermott, when they can have a custom Allers Hustler for 175.00?!! Or, for that matter, a highend David Jones for 1500.00?

Truth is, the majority of the established cuemakers are located somewhere near the East Coast...as is the majority of the poolplaying population. The MidWest and West Coast contingent are slowly making their mark...but it takes time to build a reputation. And I think this is a HUGE factor in a cue's value...REPUTATION of the cuemaker in question. I think reputation is easier to build on the East Coast because there are more people to expose a maker's cues to. Also, demographically (save areas like Seattle, San Francisco, LA), the earned income is higher...therefore the available disposable income is higher as well. I believe all of this also plays a factor.

Yes, I have done my bit and supported my local cuemaker. It just so happens that my favorite playing cues, to date, have come off of the East Coast.

Lisa

Well like I said, pertaining to value, you might get a 1500 dollar davey jones, but don't try and unload it here (NJ). You won't get your money back. It must be east coast bias I saw these Tonkin cues on the board about 6 months ago and thought to myself, is he nuts? But maybe where he is, he gets those prices. Good for him. Thats not to say they aren't a good cue, but if one of those particular cues were offered to me, I would have to turn it down in lets say a trade for a Mottey just as "valueable". Because there would be no value in it from MY standpoint and for what I need the cue to do.
It's not just west coast / east coast either, there are a few east coast cuemakers I wouldn't be caught dead with. Primarily because their secondary market sucks. Is it their fault? I don't know. To give you an example, I had the James White 16 point cue, I was offered a Phillippi worth (retail) the same 3k, well to be honest I have had a tough time flipping an 800.00 Phillippi. Not to say they aren't good cues, just its a tough secondary market for those cues. So what good would doing that trade be for me? Whites are hot, Phillippi's right now are not. Phillippi builds a very solid cue, but the resale market is soft. So as a DEALER the "value" was not there. But for someone who wanted to trade the White for the Phillippi and wanted to keep and play with it, it might be a good trade, hell it might be a great trade if the person is in love with the cue. So again, value is ultimately determined by the need of the end user.

Dealers take a hit when they don't trade cue for cue. Let me tell you, it's not because what you have is junk, 90% of the time it's because of the above situation. Most people want to get out of "soft" cues, and get into a more stable cue. I don't blame them. A dealer however is not the way to go, we are very intune to the softness of a cues value, we have to be.

JV

 

[ridewiththewind]

Well like I said, pertaining to value, you might get a 1500 dollar davey jones, but don't try and unload it here (NJ). You won't get your money back. It must be east coast bias I saw these Tonkin cues on the board about 6 months ago and thought to myself, is he nuts? But maybe where he is, he gets those prices. Good for him. Thats not to say they aren't a good cue, but if one of those particular cues were offered to me, I would have to turn it down in lets say a trade for a Mottey just as "valueable". Because there would be no value in it from MY standpoint and for what I need the cue to do.
It's not just west coast / east coast either, there are a few east coast cuemakers I wouldn't be caught dead with. Primarily because their secondary market sucks. Is it their fault? I don't know. To give you an example, I had the James White 16 point cue, I was offered a Phillippi worth (retail) the same 3k, well to be honest I have had a tough time flipping an 800.00 Phillippi. Not to say they aren't good cues, just its a tough secondary market for those cues. So what good would doing that trade be for me? Whites are hot, Phillippi's right now are not. Phillippi builds a very solid cue, but the resale market is soft. So as a DEALER the "value" was not there. But for someone who wanted to trade the White for the Phillippi and wanted to keep and play with it, it might be a good trade, hell it might be a great trade if the person is in love with the cue. So again, value is ultimately determined by the need of the end user.

Dealers take a hit when they don't trade cue for cue. Let me tell you, it's not because what you have is junk, 90% of the time it's because of the above situation. Most people want to get out of "soft" cues, and get into a more stable cue. I don't blame them. A dealer however is not the way to go, we are very intune to the softness of a cues value, we have to be.

JV

I do get all of that, Joe. This Grasshopper has learned much over the years.

This thread is a perfect example of why there should be a 'Cue Talk' section.

Lisa

 

[pharaoh68]

The bottom line is there are several factors to be taken into account when determining the market value of a cuemaker's line of cues but perhaps the most important of all is the cuemaker's name. When you think about, there a re a number of people out there who have purchased Bluegrass players cues with minimal ringwork or satin SouthWests, even Ed Prewitt cues that are fairly plain, but are commanding in excess of a thousand dollars on the second hand market.

Why? Because they are in short supply and heavy demand. Now the key factor there is the heavy demand. This is what adds to a cuemaker's reputation. This is what helps to determine his prices. It directly affects the amount of orders he takes and thus the amount of cues he pumps out. As a result, he could put out several hundred per year or conversly only 5 to 10 per year. The craftsmanship, design, materials used, aesthetics, etc. are almost secondary. The cue could be beautiful OR ugly. But if its a hot commodity based on the cuemaker's name, its gonna be pricey. Obviously, the cue maker whose cues are in great demand and short supply will see their value skyrocket, a la Dennis Searing.

Seems pretty simple.

On a seperate note, I may be a pr!ck, but I'll admit when I'm wrong, and since I haven't admitted that yet, perhaps all of you who feel like slinging names at me should go back and re-read these threads carefully. While it doesn't bother me per se, you mant to make sure that what you are saying is accurate.

Congrats Kevin, on the sale of your cue. I still wish you the best.

Just defending myself here. Not attacking anyone,
Brian

 

[cdavis9771]

What part of N.C.are you from?

 

[pharaoh68]

What part of N.C.are you from?

The part thats in New Jersey. confused: )

 

[BrooklynJay]

People should stop treating cues as an investment. People are buying cues like it's a stock, hoping that they're buying low and will be able to sell high at some later date. This is why there's all this talk about value and a cue's value on the secondary market.

It's a cue.
If you want to invest buy stocks.
It's safer and chances are you'll get a better return.

 

[pharaoh68]

It's a cue.
If you want to invest buy stocks.
It's safer and chances are you'll get a better return.

The stock market is less predictable, more volatile, and while it may yield higher returns, it also requires higher investments to achieve those returns.

Cues can be much more predictable as the market is smaller and easier to read.

 

[Hidy Ho]

People should stop treating cues as an investment. People are buying cues like it's a stock, hoping that they're buying low and will be able to sell high at some later date. This is why there's all this talk about value and a cue's value on the secondary market.

It's a cue.
If you want to invest buy stocks.
It's safer and chances are you'll get a better return.

You've opened up another big can of worms ...

 

[skins]

People should stop treating cues as an investment. People are buying cues like it's a stock, hoping that they're buying low and will be able to sell high at some later date. This is why there's all this talk about value and a cue's value on the secondary market.

It's a cue.
If you want to invest buy stocks.
It's safer and chances are you'll get a better return.

i posted this response in red from another thread that pertains to this response. i just thought it could posted here also as a part of the response.....don't hit me....

...potential for bringing future profit.... One never knows right? Varney may well be the next big name cuemaker and $1000 might be a steal. maybe but to have a better "crystal Ball" you have to know what his production numbers are, his type of cue work, construction methods, attention to detail, ability to execute, design work and a myriad others to have a good idea. that's what i mean by educating yourself. you have to "learn" what the differences in cues are and be able to notice them. it's the same with cars, watches, boats ect......

This is why "value" and all the talk about it is pointless and if you're buying the cue solely for investment purpose you're better off playing the market as cue speculating probably isn't the most profitable way to go about it. asked and answered

The purpose of a cue is to be played and the cuemaker's job is to make a decent hitting cue. Period. The fact that people might want to pay more for it to avoid an 8 year wait...that's something else entirely.

your right on the last part except for, imo, "Period" . what it is - is they don't want to wait 8 years that's all and that's fine. cues are meant to be played with and cars driven and watches worn and so on but to blindly disregard the fact that some of them are collectible and act with some of them accordingly is imho bad sense period.


i guess it's good and bad that some think this way though. good because the collectors aren't in more competition to acquire what they desire and bad for the maker who could potentially sell his works for more in preparation of the future battle to obtain them. all in all it works out though imo.

 

[BrooklynJay]

Cues can be much more predictable as the market is smaller and easier to read.

Yet a Buss 4 pointer for sale by Jazz for $700, which the Price Patrol (tm) has said is a steal, hasn't sold yet...hmmm...

Can of worms indeed.

 

[X Breaker]

Yet a Buss 4 pointer for sale by Jazz for $700, which the Price Patrol (tm) has said is a steal, hasn't sold yet...hmmm...

Can of worms indeed.

That Buss is a great cue for an unbelivable price.

There are many reason why a cue is not sold yet. For example, Christmas is coming and a lot of people are tight with cash. Some buyers are always waiting to see if the price will go lower. (Jazz, will you lower it?)

But a great price is a great price, there is no doubt about that.

Richard<--cannot see how Jazz could get that cue for less than $700...so envy

 

[JimBo]

What determines the value of a cue fresh out of the cuemakers hands? Is it the quality of craftsmanship? The effort and skill put into the creation process? The experience epitomized in the finished product? The popular opinion of the cuemaker's work? What is it?

I believe it's a combination of what the maker puts into the cue (materials as well as effort/experience/etc.) and how the buyers compare it to cues they've had in the past. The latter more than the former to an extent. What do you think?

2 major things play into it and it's not subjective it's fact.

1) Is the person's (cuemaker) name, his track record years of consistancy and experience and quality all play into that.

2)Is supply and demand, if the cuemaker has the name and has very few cues out on the secondary market then his prices sky rocket.

It's sad that number 2 seems to promote bad bussiness habits, for an example I'll point to Tim Scruggs who always turns out plenty of cues, and is very easy to work with, his hard work keeps his cues more affordable. On the other end of the spectrum would be someone like Dennis Searing, his cues are hot and he isn't making many thus his price is sky rocketing right now, if Dennis pumped out 200 cues each year for the next 3 years his cues would come down in value. It's very easy to understand and to chart. Someone who nobody has ever heard of can only make 5 cues a year yet the demand isn't there so no matter how rare they are the value just isn't there, no matter how well they are made. And there are many unknown makers out there who are doing quality work, but again it's about having the name and the experience behind you. Love it or hate it E-bay is a great gauge for value because they have a world wide market and the people looking are knowledgable so not much sneaks by.

Jim

 

[cueaddicts]

2 major things play into it and it's not subjective it's fact.

1) Is the person's (cuemaker) name, his track record years of consistancy and experience and quality all play into that.

2)Is supply and demand, if the cuemaker has the name and has very few cues out on the secondary market then his prices sky rocket.

It's sad that number 2 seems to promote bad bussiness habits, for an example I'll point to Tim Scruggs who always turns out plenty of cues, and is very easy to work with, his hard work keeps his cues more affordable. On the other end of the spectrum would be someone like Dennis Searing, his cues are hot and he isn't making many thus his price is sky rocketing right now, if Dennis pumped out 200 cues each year for the next 3 years his cues would come down in value. It's very easy to understand and to chart. Someone who nobody has ever heard of can only make 5 cues a year yet the demand isn't there so no matter how rare they are the value just isn't there, no matter how well they are made. And there are many unknown makers out there who are doing quality work, but again it's about having the name and the experience behind you. Love it or hate it E-bay is a great gauge for value because they have a world wide market and the people looking are knowledgable so not much sneaks by.

Jim

Excellent post, well-put, and true. Funny how I was met with some disagreement in the other post about if Dennis built 100 more cues a year, the prices/secondary market value would come back down. The same is true for Barry's work or anyone else's. The market for these type of commodities is not sufficently large to continue to see the same high-dollar sales.....plain and simple....supply & demand. Two very important laws in economics (not hypotheses) that people oftentimes loose sight of wrt cues.

 

[JimBo]

What about me for example. I've been building cues for years and do work for many of the worlds best players. I'm definately not unknown...except maybe to some far away with no online access. I don't have the name like Searing or Hercek...but I'm no rookie or new cuemaker for sure. Take my high end cue for sale now on the forum...it would be over $2000 by many other makers. It has the same high quality & parts...and may even play better than many bigger names. I did not price it at $2000....I was more than fair at $1000 considering the time & cost that went into this cue. Is $1000 too high? I don't think so...especially after you hold it/play with it and get to realize in person the high level of quality that went into it. Should I offer it for less because a couple of clowns think I'm nobody? Hardly. I can walk it into any poolroom in the area and sell it without question, many times over. I just wanted to offer a nicer cue, as requested, to AZB members. Now my work & name are being knocked by a couple of trolls who follow my post around only trying to ruin me. Edited.

You jump into this thread and open yourself up for ridicule from me and others; you have more then proven you can't handle the truth, why would you do this??? I would suggest you get some thicker skin and avoid such controversial threads. I would also suggest you take a course in humility. I am friends with some of the best cuemakers of ALL TIME and they don't have such high opinions of themselves, maybe that's part of why they are the best. I'll just add that every area has it's local guys who are loved by the home town boys, in CT we have Barry Cameron, in RI they have Mike Webb, I can go on and on and in this day and age of the internet you can get your name out there, but it doesn't translate. A guy in New Mexico who doesn't go on AZ may never hear of a Mike Webb or a Barry Cameron and to them their cues has little value. Point is local legend doesn't translate world wide, but I will add that quality work gets discovered over time.

Jim