Value of a Cue?

Quality Knowledge

imo, supply and demand are always the answer, but to understand what makes even these work and to really assess the value of all cues, you must have "quality" knowledge on what it takes to produce the work your trying to value. there are many who question a cues price and there are just as many who don't know the first thing on what it takes to produce them. some like to "play down" a makers work because of one thing or another, but the facts are to even express an opinion, not only do you need to know what it takes to produce these works, but you must be able to notice the differences between them as well. only then can you come to a better understanding on estimating their values and realizing why the current values are what they are.
 
TATE said:
While the materials on a cue are a small percentage of the cost, it's a combination of the time (labor), materials, and operating overhead, that determines the cost to produce a cue. It's supply and demand that determine the market value of the cue. It's likely the combination of these factors that determines the price a cuemaker charges.

Chris


Quite correct.

Since we're on the subject, I would like to ask any cuemaker that reads this how many hours are spent making what would be considered a "high" end cue?

I have absolutely no idea, but I am sure that it is very time consuming to create a cue that could be deemed "high end."

What's the labor rate at your auto repair shop? $50/hr - $150/hr?
What's the labor rate at a reputable gunsmith? You see where I am going.

So, even at $25/hr, that really doesn't buy much when you figure the overhead of insurance, inventory, operating expenses, etc. I would bet that better than half of that figure is eaten up in expenses.

JMO.
Craig
 
Good point Craig. Truthfully a cuemaker can't really have any notion of adding a labor cost to a custom cue. Even at a minimal rate...it would easily drive the cost of most cues to 2 or 3 times current retail. Unless they use prefab parts. The amount of hours spent on a rather plain cue is unbelieveable.
A good smith will easily charge more than the cost of most cues for something as relatively easy as a reliability package & front strap checkering.;)
 
skins said:
imo, supply and demand are always the answer, but to understand what makes even these work and to really assess the value of all cues, you must have "quality" knowledge on what it takes to produce the work your trying to value. there are many who question a cues price and there are just as many who don't know the first thing on what it takes to produce them. some like to "play down" a makers work because of one thing or another, but the facts are to even express an opinion, not only do you need to know what it takes to produce these works, but you must be able to notice the differences between them as well. only then can you come to a better understanding on estimating their values and realizing why the current values are what they are.
I think you are getting 'price' and 'value' confused. Price should reflect value. Value includes intangibles other than costs. If your price does not reflect value, you don't sell your cues - that's the way the market works.
 
Varney Cues said:
Take my high end cue for sale now on the forum...it would be over $2000 by many other makers.

It's a basic 4-pointer with ringwork. Who is charging over 2k for a cue like that?

I was more than fair at $1000 considering the time & cost that went into this cue.

What you think is fair, what you think you deserve...this really has nothing to do with your cue's value. You should know more than anyone how much quality competition you have in today's market. Everyone with a toy lathe and a dvd player think he's a cuemaker. There are a number of underated builders out there, and you're not on that list only because I've never even heard of you until you joined AZ.

Is this the first short-spliced cue you made? Up until now I've seen nothing but sneaky petes from your shop.

I can walk it into any poolroom in the area and sell it without question, many times over. I just wanted to offer a nicer cue, as requested, to AZB members.

Maybe you could sell that cue locally for 1k, I think it's highly unlikely no matter where you go but if you can, you should do it. I think the local hero bit is going to your head, because 1k is not a sellable price for that cue, for YOU at least. But please don't do us any favors, go get the cash if you can.

-Roger
 
Once in a while you get on of those under the radar situations, a awesome cue for a very reasonable price -great value for the dollar- other times you try to buy a Hercek, Bender, Gina, etc. and the price is high -very valuable-.
 
matcase said:
Once in a while you get on of those under the radar situations, a awesome cue for a very reasonable price -great value for the dollar- other times you try to buy a Hercek, Bender, Gina, etc. and the price is high -very valuable-.
I once hit with $189 John Guffey that hit like a dream.
Stupid me did not buy it.
Sometimes woods just add right and the cue hits like a dream.
Those you really should jump on whenever possible b/c great hitting always sell. Even the nitty players fork out the though when they find a cue they can go to war with.
 
Well today i got my new cue from BHQ from AZB.

Well while i was practicing tonight, someone whom I had talked to about buying one of his cues came into the pool hall tonight w/ the same cue i had been looking at. He had finished the cue and was trying to sell it, which he did. For 350$ w/ 2 shafts. It has 4 ebony points w/ green veneers. BEM handle, ebony butt, and matching ring work on the phenolic collars. It has a radial pin too.

the Fuking cue is beautiful and plays amazing!!!!!!!!

now if you took this same cue and had it made by Gilbert, BCM, or Varney, it would probably cost 800-1000$

My cue that i bought, is really no different than some custom cues I've seen, made by BCM or PFD, and the cost difference is about 3times as much.

So alot of it has to do with the name of the cue.
 
The cue I mention'd in the previous post, as to the one i was looking to buy, is very very similar to Varney's High End cue he posted about, except it has different woods and ring work on the butt and joint ends.
 
StormHotRod300 said:
The cue I mention'd in the previous post, as to the one i was looking to buy, is very very similar to Varney's High End cue he posted about, except it has different woods and ring work on the butt and joint ends.
Doesn't sound very similar to me.:rolleyes: Feel free to post a pic.
 
buddha162 said:
It's a basic 4-pointer with ringwork. Who is charging over 2k for a cue like that?



What you think is fair, what you think you deserve...this really has nothing to do with your cue's value. You should know more than anyone how much quality competition you have in today's market. Everyone with a toy lathe and a dvd player think he's a cuemaker. There are a number of underated builders out there, and you're not on that list only because I've never even heard of you until you joined AZ.

Is this the first short-spliced cue you made? Up until now I've seen nothing but sneaky petes from your shop.



Maybe you could sell that cue locally for 1k, I think it's highly unlikely no matter where you go but if you can, you should do it. I think the local hero bit is going to your head, because 1k is not a sellable price for that cue, for YOU at least. But please don't do us any favors, go get the cash if you can.

-Roger
I guess you want to learn the hard way. Its not in your best interest to follow my every post and spread your BS dribble.
 
Varney Cues said:
I guess you want to learn the hard way. Its not in your best interest to follow my every post and spread your BS dribble.

Learn the hard way? Lol just come out and say what you want to say, I won't run to Dave and tell I swear.

I'm trying to explain to you why, IMO, your cue is not worth 1k. If my tone is harsh it's only in response to your own arrogance, which I find offensive. However, you should try to respond to my questions and engage in a discussion, instead of threatening me with violence.

You know nothing about me and I can tell you that you're being very, very stupid.

-Roger
 
Cues are works of art, imo. The fact that some of them actually help players play their best game, is a feat that not many artists can accomplish.

Functional art is the highest form of creative expression there is... Architecture, Furniture, Musical Instruments, Knife metalurgy, etc...and, for my collectible fancy, pool cues.

When evaluating cues, there is definitely extrinsic value, i.e., ivory is more expensive than plastic, certain wood is more expensive than others, 10 vs 20 inlays... but there is a greater amount of intrinsic value in these works of art.

First, I look for the reputation of the cuemaker. Then the type of wood. More exotic woods, I expect it to be more expensive. I look for how well the points are contructed...are there glue lines, are the points re-cut, are the veneers hardwood or laminates, are they even at the top and at the point intersection (on 6 or 8 pt cues)? And for me, something that's very important, is how well stich rings (if they are used) are lined up. To me these all add to the instrinsic value.

But when it comes to price, frankly, the price of a cue is strictly up to the cuemaker or reseller to determine. I believe that price is arbitrary. True, whether a sale is accomplished at the given asking price is determined by the market, but sometimes the market has nothing to do with price or value, and may have everything to do with timing and opportunity.

So, the value of a cue is respective of the buyer... the price is up to the seller. Some of my value criteria is listed above. What i think would be cool for AZ is to collect the thoughts of cue buyers/players and come up with a foundation (or criteria) for measuring value. For example, playability, execution, style, reputation, creativity, price... and then having a rating system that buyers can participate in for all of the cuemakers in the market today.

Thanks for the thread, Paul.
 
Not defending Roger, but he has valid points. I have been dealing cues a long time and to be honest, there are a few cuemakers on here like Varney, Petree, Tonkin, BHQ and a few others that if it wasn't for them being here, I would have no clue to who they are. Thats not to say they don't build a good cue, it's just saying that I have never heard of them, or have never seen a cue in person.
How that comes into play in value, is since thats the case and I sell alot of cues locally as well as on the net, if someone came to me with a trade offer on one of the above cues I might come across as a little insulting. The value to me would be much less for the relatively unknown aspect of the cue. So value is relative IMHO to the actual need or maybe even the purpose of the end user.
Because of the quantity of cuemakers that have, excuse the term, come out of the woodwork, a lot of guys probably have much more regional success, than on the world stage. Which is great for them, but if someone in Washington or Oregon, expects a guy in NJ to take full boat on a cue like a Davey Jones, I think he is expecting way to much.

JV
 
Any product's market value is what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller without regard to what anybody else thinks.

I feel that the For Sale section of this forum is a place for people to offer items for sale or for those looking for a particular item. That's all. It is not a place for so-called experts to pontificate on their perception of what the value is or isn't.

If you want to buy or sell an item, participate in the thread or send a PM. If not, stay out of it. If you are not involved in the transaction, it is none of your business. If a potential buyer wants your advice on the value of an item, let him ask for it.

Anything else is what the Chinese saying (PinYin) "Gou na haozi, duoguan xianshi" or " a dog trying to catch mice" means. "Poking your nose into other peoples business."
 
That seems to be the common response to this whole fiasco. Varney has been making cues for a good amount of time, and he prices his cues fairly from my experience. He's been selling j/b cues on here regularly for 375-400 depending on materials. They are 375-400 because he uses quality material. If you want a cheaper cue that still hits as well as the pricier ones, BELIEVE ME, he can accomodate. If you want a $300 sneaky I know he's capable of it. What he's currently selling isn't cheap in any way. He's selling it, therefore it's his price. Who gives a flying **** if the price is too high, it will come down if nobody buys it... as it already has once. The market will speak for itself, we don't need posterboys for it.
 
buddha162 said:
Learn the hard way? Lol just come out and say what you want to say, I won't run to Dave and tell I swear.

I'm trying to explain to you why, IMO, your cue is not worth 1k. If my tone is harsh it's only in response to your own arrogance, which I find offensive. However, you should try to respond to my questions and engage in a discussion, instead of threatening me with violence.

You know nothing about me and I can tell you that you're being very, very stupid.

-Roger

Roger, I would respect your judgement of Varney's cue pricing or value if you made your point objectively.

Varney's cue is $1000. Pruitt has a plain no-point fancy ring cue that is asking $1750. Perhaps if you bought Varney's cue and Pruitt's cue, you could make judgement on the price of each? Otherwise, I don't think you're really commenting on the value of Varney's cue so much as on your personal feeling about his arrogance.

And arrogant? Well, what do you expect? What did you do in your last job interview? Didn't you try to sell yourself for what you thought you're worth? Isn't Varney doing the same thing with his cues?

I've never made a cue, maybe you have. But I have worked with wood before, and have done handi work that required a lot of tedius detailing... I can't imagine building a cue would be easy for anyone. And even though I appreciate and have higher regard for humility in most things, I can't speak to that in cue building, cuz I've never done it.

I hope you will reconsider your tact and stop judging his cue's value in order to diminish his personality.

Respectfully,
--Paul
 
Hierovision said:
What determines the value of a cue fresh out of the cuemakers hands? Is it the quality of craftsmanship? The effort and skill put into the creation process? The experience epitomized in the finished product? The popular opinion of the cuemaker's work? What is it?

I believe it's a combination of what the maker puts into the cue (materials as well as effort/experience/etc.) and how the buyers compare it to cues they've had in the past. The latter more than the former to an extent. What do you think?

I think you have a good handle on the basic determination of value. But to me, my definition of value would include and not be limited to factors such as resaleability, seconday market perception, as well as all the above. I could have a cue that meets very high on your criteria, with the sole issue of it being made by someone who you wouldn't know from your mailman. That point might reflect poorly on the overall value because I can't sell it. So there it would have little value.

So there is a big difference in "value" based soley off the name or the amount of people that would like one, ala Searing. There is also value in saying that well if I had 2000 and I spent it with Searing or Mottey or whomever vs say spending it with someone a little or alot less known, you might get a better short term value, because the 2k will go further. But trying to resell it in a short amount of time might prove hazardous to your wallet. But if you hold it and the guy becomes a Bluegrass, or Lambros you score. But now we are treading on speculation, which really renders value unimportant.

JV
 
issycue said:
Roger, I would respect your judgement of Varney's cue pricing or value if you made your point objectively.

Respectfully,
--Paul
I think you're only responding to Roger's second post. I think Roger's first post was what you think he should have done. Which he did.

Fred
 
Varney Cues said:
What about me for example....

Hey please 'don't shoot the messenger' when you ask for people's input on a public board. Everybody has opinions, and there is a great deal of variance in those opinions as eveyone can tell form the replies on this thread. From what I can tell you do nice work and have heard nothing but good things about the hit of your cues.

As it relates to values, there have been a lot of good points that i agree with already made in this thread. The internet has opened up business avenues for a lot of cuemakers who likely would have not gotten started or been able to sustain their business in whatever local region they are in. With today's technology, methods, and adhesives, many people are building very solid cues that play nice. However, that being said, there has been a definite trend overall in the secondary market where cues are either (a) hold their value and/or appreciate or (b) don't hold much value. IMO there are many reasons for this, not the least of which is a flooded market when it comes to cuemakers. People will always pay big money for the big names, who have paid their dues and developed their name and market over time. The cues are seen as art and investments, as well. A new cuemaker coming onto the scene may wish to achieve this level (a), but it will take a lot of time, effort, and exposure. It doesn't happen overnight. It use to be that people flocked to cuemakers because there were very few and they were spread far apart geographically. That is really not the case nowadays.

Anyhow, just a few of my rambling thougths on this.

Sean
 
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