Value of a Cue?
- Thread starter Hierovision
- Start date
When we talk about the market, we need to bear in mind there are different segments of markets. For a group of people in the wrong target market segment, a cue might be totlly overpriced; but to the right group, it is not.
A market segment can be a local community where the cue maker resides, or a group of collectors of a certain cue with a certain look, or a group of people who lives in a country where a certain brand is used by lots of pro players...
It is important to know the target market, and then adjust the price point accordingly.
For example, a Dave Jones being offered for sale at $2000 in NY might be a bit crazy, while it will not be so in WA.
If I offer a Cognoscenti to someone who hates CNC works, I will not get the $3000 I want. But there are tones of buyers out there for these cues at the asking price, I just need to target my sales at the right audience.
So, when we discuss market value and price and such, we should, in my opinion, bear in mind which market are we trying to sell the cue to.
The more you understand your market, the easier you can make your sale.
If a seller cannot figure out this little piece of information, and only offer the cue at a price which he thinks is reasonable because of how much time he has invested and the quality of work and such, he may be disappointed.
Richard
A market segment can be a local community where the cue maker resides, or a group of collectors of a certain cue with a certain look, or a group of people who lives in a country where a certain brand is used by lots of pro players...
It is important to know the target market, and then adjust the price point accordingly.
For example, a Dave Jones being offered for sale at $2000 in NY might be a bit crazy, while it will not be so in WA.
If I offer a Cognoscenti to someone who hates CNC works, I will not get the $3000 I want. But there are tones of buyers out there for these cues at the asking price, I just need to target my sales at the right audience.
So, when we discuss market value and price and such, we should, in my opinion, bear in mind which market are we trying to sell the cue to.
The more you understand your market, the easier you can make your sale.
If a seller cannot figure out this little piece of information, and only offer the cue at a price which he thinks is reasonable because of how much time he has invested and the quality of work and such, he may be disappointed.
Richard
JimBo said:
I will add also that sometimes supply and demand can be measured not in terms of cue maker and #of cues produced, but also by cue type and the number of availalbe choices there are for a type of cue. For example, there are a lot of '4-pointer with inlays' cues out there, and thus no matter the maker (though some makers will always carry a premium) the prices are relatively equal..and this is where i think saturation of the market plays its part.
In the higher end of the spectrum, however, there is so little supply that the only thing that really plays into value is the reputation of the maker. And IMHO i think pricing at that end of the market is governed by the availability of able/willing collectors (where price is no barrier to ownership) rather than supply/demand of the cue itself (true auctions have been most helpful in these situations).
Lastly, while eBay is a fantastic "global" marketplace, the challenge with eBay is that its participants by and large are looking for good deals. What I'm suggesting is that eBay shoppers don't really care about what's available (i.e., the market supply), so much as what's available at a discount. IOW, While shoppers would gladly pay $1500 from a dealer/CM because they really want a particular cue and know that $1500 is a fair price, they won't settle for more than $1200 for the same cue new on eBay simply because it's eBay.
Anyway, those are just my observations... please do comment...
--Paul.
nipponbilliards said:There are many reason why a cue is not sold yet. For example, Christmas is coming and a lot of people are tight with cash. Some buyers are always waiting to see if the price will go lower. (Jazz, will you lower it?)
yup .. I want to be the grinch who stole Christmas
Regarding point #2 ... it seems to be going trend on the board for people to start with a price and then reduce it to show appearance of a value. I really don't want to play this game but maybe forced to .. or do "PM me with offer" business. Man .. You think eBay is where people look for good deals? There are a lot of shameless bottom feeders on the board
Like I said before, whatever I'm selling is valuable and whatever I'm buying is not
StormHotRod300 said:
You are right that a lot has to do with the name, but you have your names all screwed up, you have 3 very different levels with Gilbert, BCM and Varney, and again with BCM and PFD. Now I like Bryan Mordt a lot but even he would tell you that he is not in the class of PFD when it comes to market value, so you have the right idea, you just have your scale all F-ed up.
Jim
Different sellers have different tactics for selling - some start high and reduce, some obviously know their cue's value better and so can say 'firm' and really mean it. 'Firm' doesn't mean dink when some sellers say it. As a buyer, we figure out different sellers and work within their parameters. Also, if as a buyer you really know a cue's market value, you want it badly, and the seller has it at a fair price, it's nuts to try to haggle - just PM and say cash is on the way. We've all done that, right? On the other hand, if I'm low on cash and really can't afford a cue for what is a fair price of say $2,000, but it doesn't sell and I have $1,600, hey I might offer it - is that bottom-feeding?Jazz said:yup .. I want to be the grinch who stole Christmas
Regarding point #2 ... it seems to be going trend on the board for people to start with a price and then reduce it to show appearance of a value.
I really don't want to play this game but maybe forced to .. or do "PM me with offer" business. Man .. You think eBay is where people look for good deals? There are a lot of shameless bottom feeders on the board
Like I said before, whatever I'm selling is valuable and whatever I'm buying is not
Jazz - I think you are selling fine - you know cue value better than most, so the 'PM with an offer' thing is unnecessary. Your prices have been fair and represent about what I could get if I resold the item - so I hope you are getting items for a bargain or trading up. Bama is the same way - I trust both of you with your prices and knowledge, and rarely would ask you to drop a price...but might
.
JimBo said:
i'm sorry jimbo but this blanket statement i disagree with. it all depends on the type of work being done. if you have an unknown who makes 10 cues a year and the perceived price of the type work he does is around 1,000 to 1,500 ( four point w/ veneers and maybe some simple inlay work ) then it will be much harder for his cues to become in demand. on the other hand if you have someone who has a wider design vision, skills and the ability to execute 10 cues like for instance Bob Manzino's "Silver Rhapsody" ect... this maker will stand out automatically and buyers will take notice immediately. whithin in a very short time this makers more simple work can even become more desirable than seemingly the same type work by other makers.
I dunno what to make of on that Buss cue for $700.
Reputable maker with decades of work.
Is the market this really soft?
I'm beginning to think people just don't want used cues anymore.
I think they order cues because it's like shopping for women.
A sense of renewal or something.
They just like to be wanting something new they picked.
I think I'm ordering a custom knife today.
Reputable maker with decades of work.
Is the market this really soft?
I'm beginning to think people just don't want used cues anymore.
I think they order cues because it's like shopping for women.
A sense of renewal or something.
They just like to be wanting something new they picked.
I think I'm ordering a custom knife today.
JoeyInCali said:
I think so .. especially now before Christmas.
JoeyInCali said:
I hope so, for custom cuemaker's sake. I think for the effort put in making a cue, generally cue prices are low. Having said that, it's hard to compete with oversee production that can produce fairly decent cues for the money. And, I don't think the niche market is big enough to accomdate all custom cuemakers wanting to do it for living.
I'm also leaning toward custom orders directly with the cuemaker's now .. I think it's a part of my evolution in the hobby .. and I got enough toys to get through the waiting period.
I also think the value of a cue sometimes depends on the group of people you hang out with.
I used to like CNC work and did not care much for points. I used to like Cognoscenti and such. After coming to this fourm and reading how everyone talks about veneers works and such, I decided to buy a few half spliced cues to compare them.
After a while, I have developed the appreciation for veneers work and sharp spliced points. To me, the value of these cues therefore greatly increases. But it is only because I was introduced to them on this forum.
I went to Taiwan and attended a few meetings with some cue collectors. As you all know, Southwest is real big in Taiwan. I had the pleasure of meeting R.Paul and PoolChady, they showed me some really crazy Southwest with ivory engraving, and so on and so forth. They were very generous in letting me trying out their Southwest.
I was not a big fan on Southwest before. I used to think they were kind of ugly to be honest. But now, I have two Southwest and if I find one I really like, I will most likely buy more. I have developed the appreciation for the beauty of Southwest because of my friends in Taiwan. Once again, the value of a Southwest is now much higher to me than it was a few years back.
So, I think the group of people one hangs out with could make a difference in the preceived value of a cue. Does that make sense?
I used to like CNC work and did not care much for points. I used to like Cognoscenti and such. After coming to this fourm and reading how everyone talks about veneers works and such, I decided to buy a few half spliced cues to compare them.
After a while, I have developed the appreciation for veneers work and sharp spliced points. To me, the value of these cues therefore greatly increases. But it is only because I was introduced to them on this forum.
I went to Taiwan and attended a few meetings with some cue collectors. As you all know, Southwest is real big in Taiwan. I had the pleasure of meeting R.Paul and PoolChady, they showed me some really crazy Southwest with ivory engraving, and so on and so forth. They were very generous in letting me trying out their Southwest.
I was not a big fan on Southwest before. I used to think they were kind of ugly to be honest. But now, I have two Southwest and if I find one I really like, I will most likely buy more. I have developed the appreciation for the beauty of Southwest because of my friends in Taiwan. Once again, the value of a Southwest is now much higher to me than it was a few years back.
So, I think the group of people one hangs out with could make a difference in the preceived value of a cue. Does that make sense?
Varney Cues said:How many used Varney's does anyone see for sale...ever? There are more than quite a few owners with them here at AZB. I think the fact that owners do not sell their Varney cues is a huge indicator.
This thread is not about you, please stop trying to hyjack it, take your giant over inflated ego and start your own thread about your cues. Then if it don't go the way you like you can cry to the moderator to end it. But this is a thread about cue values and it seems you have very little to add so stop posting in it.
Jim
Varney Cues said:How many used Varney's does anyone see for sale...ever? There are more than quite a few owners with them here at AZB. I think the fact that owners do not sell their Varney cues is a huge indicator.
Kevin,
You know this can be taken two ways...
either those who have them love them... or they cannot sell them because there are no takers.
But to give you an honest unbiased opinion.. let your cues sell themselves.. the references to guns, bullets, all that crap, YOUR own chest thumping.. it really looks and sounds juvinile to say the least. If your cues are that good, they will sell on their own merit.
JV (---invented.. Beat that mother ****ker.. using a Tucker (Murray still owes me for that saying
)
I'm not even further participating in this thread. For some reason Jumbo you feel the need to quote me from 2 days ago.JimBo said:
i think he's just rounding second base
i think this post rounds second and hasn't reached home yet.
let me add ...
1) The cuemaker's name is the primary factor. yes but their name becomes nothing if they don't they earn it for themselves. There are a score of cuemakers out there who make a quality product and can sell their cues locally on a certain price scale. However, when you travel too far out of their local area, their name is unrecognized and thus, they are deemed an "unknown". People aren't willing to pay top dollar for unknowns. this to me is not entirely true. if a maker makes an unique great product it can span the distances and connect local to non local areas. this is what separates the knowledgeable "cue player/collector", who seek these makers out sometimes with very little effort, from the rest.
As well, there are numerous high-dollar, highly collectible cues out there that are not as ornate in design as others. Why? Because they have established themselves as cuemakers who are known for making top-notch playing cues. For example, South West or Bluegrass are two cuemakers who come to mind. Their designs are not as cutting edge as others. for southwest cues now that maybe true but i hope you're not lumping in work before jerry's passing. the design work then was very unique and on many cues quite intricate to execute. many makers make great playing cues. it's the ones that try to take the work to another level that can possibly enjoy the big spoils. Some might even refer to their cues as "ugly" (not me though. i love Bluegrass cues!). maybe bluegrass but to this date i've not seen and ugly SW. Still, these cuemakers have built a name based on the extremely solid playability of their cues. name any "name" maker who has not built their name up first by building a cue that plays well. Thus, the price skyrockets as the demand rises. this also doesn't hit the mark exactly either. i know makers who's cues are revered around the us and abroad who's values, thought of on this site at least, are brought down out of ignorance to their work. it's not because of their geography but to the fact some choose not to do the research many collectors and players do to find the facts.
2) Craftsmanship and design are also some things to take into account. And this is more than just even points and veneers, inlays, and ringwork. This comes down to the construction of your cue (but these things are also not to be overlooked). Do the rings pop? Is the finish solid? Is the cue constructed with extreme care? What are the wood choices? What is the figure like? Finally, how did the overall design turn out? i agree, among many other aspects of their work these are things that, like i said with the right research, can be found out rather easily and bring a better understanding of why perceived values are what they are.
You can have the best design in the world, but if you can't execute it, well that sort of defeats the purpose. Its definitely going to affect the value. As well, you can have incredibly machining abilities. But if all you can do is a plain jane or a four pointer with unever points and bad inlays, this too will affect the value of a cue. if you have "incredible machining abilities" i don't think you will have any problem with some of these you've mentioned.
3) Supply versus demand is what dictates the value of anything in any market. Cues are no different. yes but you need to use the aforementioned criteria and also take into account the "caped" perceived value. meaning it all depends on the type work being done. a more simple cue will have somewhat of a "ceiling" on the price whereas a more intricate one could be more hard to value and command a big price tag. South West charges close to $2,000 for a six point cue with rings. Now you can get a cue from other cue makers for half that price, but will it play like a South West? there are many makers that can do the same work and make them play comparable. in this rare case this is where your initial statement of name really holds true. When you tire of the cue and you try to sell it, can you get what you put into it (or in some cases even more)? South West, Richard Harris, Joel Herceck, Bill Schick, Ernie Gutierrez. These are just some of few cuemakers out there who command top dollar on the second hand market. Why? Because their cues can be difficult to come by. For starters, if you were to order a cue through Joel Herceck or the South West shop, your name goes on a list for 8 or 9 years. When that time is up, then you get a call and they start working on your cue. In the case of Richard Harris, you can't even order through him anymore. So, you have to buy on the second hand market.
Now, these guys have wait lists of 8 years for a reason. Positive word of mouth. The demand excedes what the cuemaker can put out each year. These are cue makers who's cues cues can maintain or even actually appreciate in value.
4) Materials that are used is another element however, it does go hand in hand with design and craftsmanship. For example, many people like ivory in a cue. If the design is pulled off well, it can and often does look gorgeous. But when you make a cue out of solid ivory, you have to be really careful. I can recall one such incident in which a cuemaker of rather high esteem built a cue out of solid ivory with a few carvings in it. The design was (IMO) lackluster and the craftsmanship was NOT of top caliber. Thus, the cue cracked once it hit colder air. how do you know it was the craftsmanship that caused the ivory to crack? there are allot of reasons why ivory will crack. some by no fault of the maker. Conversely, a cuemaker like Paul Fanelli will steer away from inlay material more often then not. Instead, he'll use beautiful combinations of exotic woods with designs that are unique and beautiful. This are things that add to value. imo the reason why paul's cues are sought after is not so much the material but his execution with it.
HIRUN526 said:
i think this post rounds second and hasn't reached home yet.
let me add ...
1) The cuemaker's name is the primary factor. yes but their name becomes nothing if they don't they earn it for themselves. There are a score of cuemakers out there who make a quality product and can sell their cues locally on a certain price scale. However, when you travel too far out of their local area, their name is unrecognized and thus, they are deemed an "unknown". People aren't willing to pay top dollar for unknowns. this to me is not entirely true. if a maker makes an unique great product it can span the distances and connect local to non local areas. this is what separates the knowledgeable "cue player/collector", who seek these makers out sometimes with very little effort, from the rest.
As well, there are numerous high-dollar, highly collectible cues out there that are not as ornate in design as others. Why? Because they have established themselves as cuemakers who are known for making top-notch playing cues. For example, South West or Bluegrass are two cuemakers who come to mind. Their designs are not as cutting edge as others. for southwest cues now that maybe true but i hope you're not lumping in work before jerry's passing. the design work then was very unique and on many cues quite intricate to execute. many makers make great playing cues. it's the ones that try to take the work to another level that can possibly enjoy the big spoils. Some might even refer to their cues as "ugly" (not me though. i love Bluegrass cues!). maybe bluegrass but to this date i've not seen and ugly SW. Still, these cuemakers have built a name based on the extremely solid playability of their cues. name any "name" maker who has not built their name up first by building a cue that plays well. Thus, the price skyrockets as the demand rises. this also doesn't hit the mark exactly either. i know makers who's cues are revered around the us and abroad who's values, thought of on this site at least, are brought down out of ignorance to their work. it's not because of their geography but to the fact some choose not to do the research many collectors and players do to find the facts.
2) Craftsmanship and design are also some things to take into account. And this is more than just even points and veneers, inlays, and ringwork. This comes down to the construction of your cue (but these things are also not to be overlooked). Do the rings pop? Is the finish solid? Is the cue constructed with extreme care? What are the wood choices? What is the figure like? Finally, how did the overall design turn out? i agree, among many other aspects of their work these are things that, like i said with the right research, can be found out rather easily and bring a better understanding of why perceived values are what they are.
You can have the best design in the world, but if you can't execute it, well that sort of defeats the purpose. Its definitely going to affect the value. As well, you can have incredibly machining abilities. But if all you can do is a plain jane or a four pointer with unever points and bad inlays, this too will affect the value of a cue. if you have "incredible machining abilities" i don't think you will have any problem with some of these you've mentioned.
3) Supply versus demand is what dictates the value of anything in any market. Cues are no different. yes but you need to use the aforementioned criteria and also take into account the "caped" perceived value. meaning it all depends on the type work being done. a more simple cue will have somewhat of a "ceiling" on the price whereas a more intricate one could be more hard to value and command a big price tag. South West charges close to $2,000 for a six point cue with rings. Now you can get a cue from other cue makers for half that price, but will it play like a South West? there are many makers that can do the same work and make them play comparable. in this rare case this is where your initial statement of name really holds true. When you tire of the cue and you try to sell it, can you get what you put into it (or in some cases even more)? South West, Richard Harris, Joel Herceck, Bill Schick, Ernie Gutierrez. These are just some of few cuemakers out there who command top dollar on the second hand market. Why? Because their cues can be difficult to come by. For starters, if you were to order a cue through Joel Herceck or the South West shop, your name goes on a list for 8 or 9 years. When that time is up, then you get a call and they start working on your cue. In the case of Richard Harris, you can't even order through him anymore. So, you have to buy on the second hand market.
Now, these guys have wait lists of 8 years for a reason. Positive word of mouth. The demand excedes what the cuemaker can put out each year. These are cue makers who's cues cues can maintain or even actually appreciate in value.
4) Materials that are used is another element however, it does go hand in hand with design and craftsmanship. For example, many people like ivory in a cue. If the design is pulled off well, it can and often does look gorgeous. But when you make a cue out of solid ivory, you have to be really careful. I can recall one such incident in which a cuemaker of rather high esteem built a cue out of solid ivory with a few carvings in it. The design was (IMO) lackluster and the craftsmanship was NOT of top caliber. Thus, the cue cracked once it hit colder air. how do you know it was the craftsmanship that caused the ivory to crack? there are allot of reasons why ivory will crack. some by no fault of the maker. Conversely, a cuemaker like Paul Fanelli will steer away from inlay material more often then not. Instead, he'll use beautiful combinations of exotic woods with designs that are unique and beautiful. This are things that add to value. imo the reason why paul's cues are sought after is not so much the material but his execution with it.
nipponbilliards said:
to me this makes little sence. used to like cnc cues like Cognoscenti until i was exposed to spliced veneered ones and now because of this the value increases because i was introduced to them on this forum. i hope you mean the "value" ,thought wise to you, and not monetarily. either you know what to appriciate as far as cue art or you don't. you can still like them both. also you can't compare the look of traditional spliced cues to floating point design work. they're totally different and meant to be so and the value of either is not solely determined buy the type work. what else is interesting is in the asia's joe's cues are just as popular as southwest.
skins said:
You are wrong, Bob is a well known maker in the high end collector market, the cue Ken posted wasn't the first high end cue the man has made, I know of very nice work from him from 2001. But the point is the cue has work in it that is flawless and design elements that turn heads. Also 3-4 years ago you could get a 6 point players cue from Bob in the $1,000 range. Point is you are not comparing apples to apples. Bob has been at it for a while and has paid his dues and as I already said great work doesn't go unnoticed. But please don't compare Silver Rhapsody with a no ring 4 point no veneer 1 shaft without ivory cue.
Jim