Value of a Cue?

JimBo said:
You are wrong, Bob is a well known maker in the high end collector market, the cue Ken posted wasn't the first high end cue the man has made, I know of very nice work from him from 2001. But the point is the cue has work in it that is flawless and design elements that turn heads. Also 3-4 years ago you could get a 6 point players cue from Bob in the $1,000 range. Point is you are not comparing apples to apples. Bob has been at it for a while and has paid his dues and as I already said great work doesn't go unnoticed. But please don't compare Silver Rhapsody with a no ring 4 point no veneer 1 shaft without ivory cue.

Jim

listen jimbo i'm not totally against your post. i know bob and if you ask him he'll enlighten you about myself. you didn't get my post jimbo. i was saying that if a maker, like bob, makes cues like bob then he will be found out by the collectors without much effort whether he is known or not. i was praising bob's work not putting it down. you said "Someone who nobody has ever heard of can only make 5 cues a year yet the demand isn't there so no matter how rare they are the value just isn't there, no matter how well they are made." my point was that if you make cues like bob and your a nobody they will be noticed by collectors no matter what.
 
JimBo said:
Again we are on a public forum where any member is allowed to post ideas and opinions, you either deal with it or sell your items on E-bay where none of this happens.

Jim
Since this is a forum for opinions. I think Jimbo and budda162 are lowlife jerkoffs. Like you said "deal with it". I think from this moment forward I'm going to follow the two of you around this forum and everytime you post or interject an opinion I'm going to counter you wether you are right or wrong. Its a free forum and I have plenty of time on my hands so stooping to your level could be fun.

Also if I find out where you work I'll be sure to let your employers know that I think your work and attitude suck and you shouldn't be paying these yo-yo's anywhere near what they are earning because kids in china do it for less with half the arrogance. Not because thats a threat, I'd never do that, and not because I know anything about your work habits or time put into you career or years learning a trade that earned what you earn now and maybe later in the future but because its a free world and just like opinions I have one. Right now my opinion of you two is pretty low. So if I find out any info on either of you I'll be sure to chim in. Is is my right in this free world to say what I want anytime I feel the need to do so. Isn't it.
 
Bishop said:
...I have plenty of time on my hands...

I think the above, and your constant use of the word "jerkoff" gives us a pretty clear picture.

Disclaimer - Bishop is not representative of Texans in general.
 
runscott said:
I think the above, and your constant use of the word "jerkoff" gives us a pretty clear picture.

Disclaimer - Bishop is not representative of Texans in general.
hahaha I'll pick a different word. I guess you approve of all the flaming here by those two. Just dishing out a little of their own medicine. I really didn't have a beef with you but this isn't the first time you've attacked me. No big deal I can take it. Free world, say what you want about me I could care less.

Thing that I find the most interesting is the scores of PMs I get everytime I point out what asses some of the posters here are. The thing I find even funnier is the cue makers that PM me most of which I never see post here. I can't be all wrong buddy. I'm just a nobody so I guess thats why I don't mind speaking up.

I will say this though, the only PMs I've gotten protesting what I'm saying is that from the ones I'm pointing out. They can dish it out but can't take it. ******************************* I'm taking a stand against them.
 
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skins said:
how can you assure me of this?

I grew up playing pool in Taiwan, and I have also taken a keen interest in the growing custom cue market over there in recent years. Taiwan and Japan have very similar tastes in cues, as in most other cultural trends that flow from Tokyo to Taipei.

In any case, there is no other cue that comes close to SW's in popularity. At one point the top 4 players out of five in Taiwan were playing with Jerry Franklins. To be exact, dark nose pre-dates are the end-all be-all cues to own and move in Taiwan and Japan. It has been for the past decade, and it will continue to be in the next few years at least. There are inroads made by other makers...but nothing, absolutely nothing, rivals the popularity of the Franklin shop.

If you said that Cogs were popular, I would disagree silently. But claiming that they are as popular as Southwests in ASIA, of all places...is just inaccurate.

-Roger
 
Bishop said:
Also if I find out where you work I'll be sure to let your employers know that I think your work and attitude suck and you shouldn't be paying these yo-yo's anywhere near what they are earning because kids in china do it for less with half the arrogance. Not because thats a threat, I'd never do that, and not because I know anything about your work habits or time put into you career or years learning a trade that earned what you earn now and maybe later in the future but because its a free world and just like opinions I have one.

I don't get it...please explain: are you going to do this or are you just letting us know that you fantasize about me and jimbo?

Right now my opinion of you two is pretty low.

Lol I don't care.

So if I find out any info on either of you I'll be sure to chim in. Is is my right in this free world to say what I want anytime I feel the need to do so. Isn't it.

What do you want to know? I'll be taking questions in chat at 3am, please be prepared and be on time.

-Roger
 
skins said:
i think this post rounds second and hasn't reached home yet.
let me add ...

1) The cuemaker's name is the primary factor. yes but their name becomes nothing if they don't they earn it for themselves. There are a score of cuemakers out there who make a quality product and can sell their cues locally on a certain price scale. However, when you travel too far out of their local area, their name is unrecognized and thus, they are deemed an "unknown". People aren't willing to pay top dollar for unknowns. this to me is not entirely true. if a maker makes an unique great product it can span the distances and connect local to non local areas. this is what separates the knowledgeable "cue player/collector", who seek these makers out sometimes with very little effort, from the rest.

As well, there are numerous high-dollar, highly collectible cues out there that are not as ornate in design as others. Why? Because they have established themselves as cuemakers who are known for making top-notch playing cues. For example, South West or Bluegrass are two cuemakers who come to mind. Their designs are not as cutting edge as others. for southwest cues now that maybe true but i hope you're not lumping in work before jerry's passing. the design work then was very unique and on many cues quite intricate to execute. many makers make great playing cues. it's the ones that try to take the work to another level that can possibly enjoy the big spoils. Some might even refer to their cues as "ugly" (not me though. i love Bluegrass cues!). maybe bluegrass but to this date i've not seen and ugly SW. Still, these cuemakers have built a name based on the extremely solid playability of their cues. name any "name" maker who has not built their name up first by building a cue that plays well. Thus, the price skyrockets as the demand rises. this also doesn't hit the mark exactly either. i know makers who's cues are revered around the us and abroad who's values, thought of on this site at least, are brought down out of ignorance to their work. it's not because of their geography but to the fact some choose not to do the research many collectors and players do to find the facts.

2) Craftsmanship and design are also some things to take into account. And this is more than just even points and veneers, inlays, and ringwork. This comes down to the construction of your cue (but these things are also not to be overlooked). Do the rings pop? Is the finish solid? Is the cue constructed with extreme care? What are the wood choices? What is the figure like? Finally, how did the overall design turn out? i agree, among many other aspects of their work these are things that, like i said with the right research, can be found out rather easily and bring a better understanding of why perceived values are what they are.

You can have the best design in the world, but if you can't execute it, well that sort of defeats the purpose. Its definitely going to affect the value. As well, you can have incredibly machining abilities. But if all you can do is a plain jane or a four pointer with unever points and bad inlays, this too will affect the value of a cue. if you have "incredible machining abilities" i don't think you will have any problem with some of these you've mentioned.


3) Supply versus demand is what dictates the value of anything in any market. Cues are no different. yes but you need to use the aforementioned criteria and also take into account the "caped" perceived value. meaning it all depends on the type work being done. a more simple cue will have somewhat of a "ceiling" on the price whereas a more intricate one could be more hard to value and command a big price tag. South West charges close to $2,000 for a six point cue with rings. Now you can get a cue from other cue makers for half that price, but will it play like a South West? there are many makers that can do the same work and make them play comparable. in this rare case this is where your initial statement of name really holds true. When you tire of the cue and you try to sell it, can you get what you put into it (or in some cases even more)? South West, Richard Harris, Joel Herceck, Bill Schick, Ernie Gutierrez. These are just some of few cuemakers out there who command top dollar on the second hand market. Why? Because their cues can be difficult to come by. For starters, if you were to order a cue through Joel Herceck or the South West shop, your name goes on a list for 8 or 9 years. When that time is up, then you get a call and they start working on your cue. In the case of Richard Harris, you can't even order through him anymore. So, you have to buy on the second hand market.

Now, these guys have wait lists of 8 years for a reason. Positive word of mouth. The demand excedes what the cuemaker can put out each year. These are cue makers who's cues cues can maintain or even actually appreciate in value.

4) Materials that are used is another element however, it does go hand in hand with design and craftsmanship. For example, many people like ivory in a cue. If the design is pulled off well, it can and often does look gorgeous. But when you make a cue out of solid ivory, you have to be really careful. I can recall one such incident in which a cuemaker of rather high esteem built a cue out of solid ivory with a few carvings in it. The design was (IMO) lackluster and the craftsmanship was NOT of top caliber. Thus, the cue cracked once it hit colder air. how do you know it was the craftsmanship that caused the ivory to crack? there are allot of reasons why ivory will crack. some by no fault of the maker. Conversely, a cuemaker like Paul Fanelli will steer away from inlay material more often then not. Instead, he'll use beautiful combinations of exotic woods with designs that are unique and beautiful. This are things that add to value. imo the reason why paul's cues are sought after is not so much the material but his execution with it.

I'm not sure I agree with you on some of these points but to try and reply would be too damn hard! I'd have to use a different color to differentiate my response from your response from the original post, and then It would just look like a rainbow!!!!
 
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buddha162 said:
I grew up playing pool in Taiwan, and I have also taken a keen interest in the growing custom cue market over there in recent years. Taiwan and Japan have very similar tastes in cues, as in most other cultural trends that flow from Tokyo to Taipei.

In any case, there is no other cue that comes close to SW's in popularity. At one point the top 4 players out of five in Taiwan were playing with Jerry Franklins. To be exact, dark nose pre-dates are the end-all be-all cues to own and move in Taiwan and Japan. It has been for the past decade, and it will continue to be in the next few years at least. There are inroads made by other makers...but nothing, absolutely nothing, rivals the popularity of the Franklin shop.

If you said that Cogs were popular, I would disagree silently. But claiming that they are as popular as Southwests in ASIA, of all places...is just inaccurate.

-Roger

where do you think allot of the cog's made in the last 5 years were sold? the answer is the Asian countries. in recent times players in japan couldn't wait to get one and the prices were double or more what they were here. they did have as great a desire to acuire them as any new cue. you could be right that southwest's are more greatly desired now but don't say that cog's aren't or weren't even close because that's not true.
 
pharaoh68 said:
I'm not sure I agree with you on some of these points but to try and reply would be too damn hard! I'd have to use a different color to differentiate my response from your response from the original post, and then It would just look like a rainbow!!!!

my response meant no ill will even though it may read that way. i was trying to play devils advocate on one hand and embellishing on what i think people should know to help then determine how to analyze the future worth of cues. by the way i did read your non edited post and i thought it was a little on the harsh side. i like this one better. i hate rainbows!
 
Bishop said:
hahaha I'll pick a different word. I guess you approve of all the flaming here by those two. Just dishing out a little of their own medicine. I really didn't have a beef with you but this isn't the first time you've attacked me. No big deal I can take it. Free world, say what you want about me I could care less.

Thing that I find the most interesting is the scores of PMs I get everytime I point out what asses some of the posters here are. The thing I find even funnier is the cue makers that PM me most of which I never see post here. I can't be all wrong buddy. I'm just a nobody so I guess thats why I don't mind speaking up.

I will say this though, the only PMs I've gotten protesting what I'm saying is that from the ones I'm pointing out. They can dish it out but can't take it. ******************************* I'm taking a stand against them.

I'm just not a big fan of name-calling and threats in a public forum. Plus, I agree with most of what Jimbo and Buddha have said.
 
skins said:
my response meant no ill will even though it may read that way. i was trying to play devils advocate on one hand and embellishing on what i think people should know to help then determine how to analyze the future worth of cues. by the way i did read your non edited post and i thought it was a little on the harsh side. i like this one better. i hate rainbows!

Yeah. I read it through it AFTER I clicked 'submit reply' and realized that I sounded a little too harsh.
 
JoeyInCali said:
The odds are 7-5 right now that this thread will be closed too.

Have some other threads been shut down recently? I hope this one isn't -very good exchange of ideas here.
 
Cue Forgery

One of the comments in this thread reminded me of a post I made a year or so ago about cue forgeries - it received, let's see...zero responses. Made me wonder if that was a taboo subject. I asked if elite cue-maker cues were ever forged. It makes sense that this happens just because of the $ opportunity for thieves - they do it with art, rare coins, etc., so why not cues?

According to some of the arguments on this thread about cue 'value' premiums associated with the cues of some cue-makers (Hercek, etc.), you would be led to believe that if a cue-maker could forge an expert's cues so good that he could re-sell it as the real thing, then he could be making his own cues, with his own name on them, and getting the same money. Do you believe this is true? (My opinion is a strong 'no').
 
skins said:
where do you think allot of the cog's made in the last 5 years were sold? the answer is the Asian countries. in recent times players in japan couldn't wait to get one and the prices were double or more what they were here. they did have as great a desire to acuire them as any new cue.

None of what you wrote negate my position. So he's selling more cues. So his cues are fetching higher prices in Japan; EVERY cue fetches ridiculous prices in Japan. Perhaps you meant to say, "cogs are gaining in reputation in Asian countries," or even, "Cogs are skyrocketing in popularity in Asia."

you could be right that southwest's are more greatly desired now but don't say that cog's aren't or weren't even close because that's not true.

I could be right? Well, I guess you don't have to believe me. But believe me, I'm right. I was just there. People mobbed me for Southwests. A couple asked if I brought back any Scruggs. I have never, ever heard of Joe Gold's name mentioned, this trip or in my entire 12 years living in Asia, playing pool, talking to collectors. I'm sure he's selling cues there, but he is not rivaling Southwest's clout anytime soon.

I remember when I was in 7th grade, I asked the local poolhall owner what cue I should get. He laughed, and said "Sau-Weh." I've heard "Sau-Weh" countless times before I even knew custom cues existed. The cue market there is even more volatile than we're used to. Names come and go, but for 20 years there was one name that stayed very comfortably on top...

South-freakin'-West.

-Roger
 
runscott said:
I think the above, and your constant use of the word "jerkoff" gives us a pretty clear picture.

Disclaimer - Bishop is not representative of Texans in general.


Bishop is DEFINATELY NOT representative of Texans in general.
 
I don't see what being a Texan has to do with any of it. Scores of people can't stand what these guys say. Its like they have it out for certain people for no reason. I'm sarcastically putting my .02 in because a lot here are just not as confrontational as I am.

They go on and on taking personal shots at people on this board with no real value or fact behind it, so I'm tossing the poo right back. Its ok to not agree with what I'm doing it is a bit childish but at some point enough is enough and these guys roam around here screwing with people for no good reason other than to troll.

Its no big secret why some cue makers don't share and post here. Its no big secret that these opinionated bottom feeders have cost good people money on their cue or product sales. Its no big secret that what they are doing is wrong.

It was sad to read a PM I got from a member here saying he knows exactly where I'm coming from. He too had a cue up for sale and just like anyone trying to move product these yo-yo's moved in and trolled his thread. He had an offer at almost full value and the buyer retracted on the deal wanting to change up and pay less based on BS opinions stated in said thread. Cost the guy about a hundred dollars. Now that may not break Jimbo but a 100 is a 100 and sure the seller could have moved on and hoped for another buyer to show up and see past the crap trolling but like most people that have something up for sale he needed money right then and there.
 
I don't like Jimbo, but here goes anyway.

Jimbo knows a lot about cues. Like... a LOT a lot. He's a dick, but he knows a lot about cues. If you search through his posts there's usually at least one nugget amongst the crap :D lol.
 
Bishop said:
Since this is a forum for opinions. I think Jimbo and budda162 are lowlife jerkoffs. Like you said "deal with it". I think from this moment forward I'm going to follow the two of you around this forum and everytime you post or interject an opinion I'm going to counter you wether you are right or wrong. Its a free forum and I have plenty of time on my hands so stooping to your level could be fun.

Also if I find out where you work I'll be sure to let your employers know that I think your work and attitude suck and you shouldn't be paying these yo-yo's anywhere near what they are earning because kids in china do it for less with half the arrogance. Not because thats a threat, I'd never do that, and not because I know anything about your work habits or time put into you career or years learning a trade that earned what you earn now and maybe later in the future but because its a free world and just like opinions I have one. Right now my opinion of you two is pretty low. So if I find out any info on either of you I'll be sure to chim in. Is is my right in this free world to say what I want anytime I feel the need to do so. Isn't it.

Bishop-

Based on your arguments, you seem as if you know a great deal about cues and thus, I will not attempt to compete with your vast expertise. You sound like an intellectual with whom none of us can rival. Your logic is far superior to us tiny "little brains". I think you will go far in life with a mentality like yours. Rather than defend your beliefs by making counterpoints, you merely name-call and reduce yourself to the antics of a 9 year old, which I must say is truly brilliant!

You speak in a rational and mature fashion. I enjoy reading your posts. You are a real class act.

...Also, everything that I just said about you was a lie.
 
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