How many used Varney's does anyone see for sale...ever? There are more than quite a few owners with them here at AZB. I think the fact that owners do not sell their Varney cues is a huge indicator.
Value of a Cue?
- Thread starter Hierovision
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Intimidation or threats aimed at other users of the forum is a big step towards taking an extended vacation from the forum.
I shouldn't have to explain this.
Mike
I shouldn't have to explain this.
Mike
Varney Cues said:
pharaoh68
Banned
In terms of determining the value of a cue, there are a number of factors which should be taken into consideration. (and these are in NO particular order)
1) The cuemaker's name is the primary factor. There are a score of cuemakers out there who make a quality product and can sell their cues locally on a certain price scale. However, when you travel too far out of their local area, their name is unrecognized and thus, they are deemed an "unknown". People aren't willing to pay top dollar for unknowns.
As well, there are numerous high-dollar, highly collectible cues out there that are not as ornate in design as others. Why? Because they have established themselves as cuemakers who are known for making top-notch playing cues. For example, South West or Bluegrass are two cuemakers who come to mind. Their designs are not as cutting edge as others. Some might even refer to their cues as "ugly" (not me though. i love Bluegrass cues!) Still, these cuemakers have built a name based on the extremely solid playability of their cues. Thus, the price skyrockets as the demand rises.
2) Craftsmanship and design are also some things to take into account. And this is more than just even points and veneers, inlays, and ringwork. This comes down to the construction of your cue (but these things are also not to be overlooked). Do the rings pop? Is the finish solid? Is the cue constructed with extreme care? What are the wood choices? What is the figure like? Finally, how did the overall design turn out?
You can have the best design in the world, but if you can't execute it, well that sort of defeats the purpose. Its definitely going to affect the value. As well, you can have incredibly machining abilities. But if all you can do is a plain jane or a four pointer with unever points and bad inlays, this too will affect the value of a cue.
3) Supply versus demand is what dictates the value of anything in any market. Cues are no different. South West charges close to $2,000 for a six point cue with rings. Now you can get a cue from other cue makers for half that price, but will it play like a South West? When you tire of the cue and you try to sell it, can you get what you put into it (or in some cases even more)? South West, Richard Harris, Joel Herceck, Bill Schick, Ernie Gutierrez. These are just some of few cuemakers out there who command top dollar on the second hand market. Why? Because their cues can be difficult to come by. For starters, if you were to order a cue through Joel Herceck or the South West shop, your name goes on a list for 8 or 9 years. When that time is up, then you get a call and they start working on your cue. In the case of Richard Harris, you can't even order through him anymore. So, you have to buy on the second hand market.
Now, these guys have wait lists of 8 years for a reason. Positive word of mouth. The demand excedes what the cuemaker can put out each year. These are cue makers who's cues cues can maintain or even actually appreciate in value.
4) Materials that are used is another element however, it does go hand in hand with design and craftsmanship. For example, many people like ivory in a cue. If the design is pulled off well, it can and often does look gorgeous. But when you make a cue out of solid ivory, you have to be really careful. I can recall one such incident in which a cuemaker of rather high esteem built a cue out of solid ivory with a few carvings in it. The design was (IMO) lackluster and the craftsmanship was NOT of top caliber. Thus, the cue cracked once it hit colder air. Conversely, a cuemaker like Paul Fanelli will steer away from inlay material more often then not. Instead, he'll use beautiful combinations of exotic woods with designs that are unique and beautiful. This are things that add to value.
1) The cuemaker's name is the primary factor. There are a score of cuemakers out there who make a quality product and can sell their cues locally on a certain price scale. However, when you travel too far out of their local area, their name is unrecognized and thus, they are deemed an "unknown". People aren't willing to pay top dollar for unknowns.
As well, there are numerous high-dollar, highly collectible cues out there that are not as ornate in design as others. Why? Because they have established themselves as cuemakers who are known for making top-notch playing cues. For example, South West or Bluegrass are two cuemakers who come to mind. Their designs are not as cutting edge as others. Some might even refer to their cues as "ugly" (not me though. i love Bluegrass cues!) Still, these cuemakers have built a name based on the extremely solid playability of their cues. Thus, the price skyrockets as the demand rises.
2) Craftsmanship and design are also some things to take into account. And this is more than just even points and veneers, inlays, and ringwork. This comes down to the construction of your cue (but these things are also not to be overlooked). Do the rings pop? Is the finish solid? Is the cue constructed with extreme care? What are the wood choices? What is the figure like? Finally, how did the overall design turn out?
You can have the best design in the world, but if you can't execute it, well that sort of defeats the purpose. Its definitely going to affect the value. As well, you can have incredibly machining abilities. But if all you can do is a plain jane or a four pointer with unever points and bad inlays, this too will affect the value of a cue.
3) Supply versus demand is what dictates the value of anything in any market. Cues are no different. South West charges close to $2,000 for a six point cue with rings. Now you can get a cue from other cue makers for half that price, but will it play like a South West? When you tire of the cue and you try to sell it, can you get what you put into it (or in some cases even more)? South West, Richard Harris, Joel Herceck, Bill Schick, Ernie Gutierrez. These are just some of few cuemakers out there who command top dollar on the second hand market. Why? Because their cues can be difficult to come by. For starters, if you were to order a cue through Joel Herceck or the South West shop, your name goes on a list for 8 or 9 years. When that time is up, then you get a call and they start working on your cue. In the case of Richard Harris, you can't even order through him anymore. So, you have to buy on the second hand market.
Now, these guys have wait lists of 8 years for a reason. Positive word of mouth. The demand excedes what the cuemaker can put out each year. These are cue makers who's cues cues can maintain or even actually appreciate in value.
4) Materials that are used is another element however, it does go hand in hand with design and craftsmanship. For example, many people like ivory in a cue. If the design is pulled off well, it can and often does look gorgeous. But when you make a cue out of solid ivory, you have to be really careful. I can recall one such incident in which a cuemaker of rather high esteem built a cue out of solid ivory with a few carvings in it. The design was (IMO) lackluster and the craftsmanship was NOT of top caliber. Thus, the cue cracked once it hit colder air. Conversely, a cuemaker like Paul Fanelli will steer away from inlay material more often then not. Instead, he'll use beautiful combinations of exotic woods with designs that are unique and beautiful. This are things that add to value.
classiccues said:
I understand what you are saying here, Joe. There are so many newer cuemakers on the scene currently, that the mind boggles with choices. Many are popular mainly regionally...and the reason for this is...most players are looking for just a nice, inexpensive cue to play with, and if a custom maker can come in under a production cue price, they're going to go for it. Also, often immediately available cues (instant gratification) are limited in these areas, and so, when a cuemaker walks into a tourney and sells everything in his case, it's all these players know or are exposed to. Why are they going to pay 200.00+ for say, a McDermott, when they can have a custom Allers Hustler for 175.00?!! Or, for that matter, a highend David Jones for 1500.00?
Truth is, the majority of the established cuemakers are located somewhere near the East Coast...as is the majority of the poolplaying population. The MidWest and West Coast contingent are slowly making their mark...but it takes time to build a reputation. And I think this is a HUGE factor in a cue's value...REPUTATION of the cuemaker in question. I think reputation is easier to build on the East Coast because there are more people to expose a maker's cues to. Also, demographically (save areas like Seattle, San Francisco, LA), the earned income is higher...therefore the available disposable income is higher as well. I believe all of this also plays a factor.
Yes, I have done my bit and supported my local cuemaker. It just so happens that my favorite playing cues, to date, have come off of the East Coast.
Lisa
Yes, and as you point out, rep in your own locality isn't the same as rep worldwide (or in AZ).ridewiththewind said:
Who are the strong cuemakers up here, and what cuemakers would you compare the hit of their cues to? I've heard a couple of names, but mostly from players who don't play with custom cues.ridewiththewind said:
runscott said:
scott, the posters ? was answered in my first sentence "imo, supply and demand are always the answer". then i elaborated on what "anyone" including cue makers need to know in order to understand and use this for their "worth/value/price" conclusion that's all. sorry if this confused you.
And I think this is a HUGE factor in a cue's value...REPUTATION of the cuemaker in question....
Let's ask Purdman about this.
Let's ask Purdman about this.
Okay, I see what you are saying. After the Varney fiasco thread, I have come to the conclusion that some cuemakers, and LOTS of cue-buyers (who somehow have strong opinions, but no money to back the up) use 'value' and 'price' interchangeably.skins said:
Another thought on 'price' vs 'value'. If you are selling a cue, and truly do know the 'market value', then your life is easy - price equals your perceived value. It also depends on where you are selling - internet value is certainly different from retail value, which is different from 'local value'. If you don't know the 'market value' (and no one ever does exactly down to the penny) for the market you are addressing, then you risk either not selling, or leaving money on the table. This is why auctions work well for sellers who don't know their item's market value. If you set your price higher than what your market perceives as its value, then you have to use advertising, self-promotion, etc., to bridge that gap...or lower your price. This isn't my opinion, it's something I studied for years, and I have two worthless pieces of paper to show for it
...and it's also not rocket science.
runscott said:
Well, I know that David Jones' cues are highly respected. I had a chance to hit a ball or two with one. The hit is similar to Skip's, but not quite. A stiff cue, I would say. He's in Lynnwood.
Paul Allers is the 'hot' guy here locally. He is outta Oak Harbor, on Whidbey. He is turning out some amazing cues, design-wise...for some pretty low dollars, IMHO. He specializes in 60" cues, and if you order a cue from him, you need to specify if it is to be a 58" cue...otherwise, it will be 60". I have one of his Hustlers that I played all of 9 Ball league with last year while I was waiting on my Skip. And it was a 60" cue. They have a nice balance point, I would say slightly forward. I am not overly fond of the 60" shaft, as it is not stiff enough to my liking. However, I have just seen one of his new laminated shafts he is making, and they are much stiffer, and appear very high quality...at least the one I saw. Paul is extremely passionate about what he is doing, and it is showing, as his work is getting better and better all the time. A few years ago, I would not have likely recommended him, as his work was just not quite there yet, to my eye...but that has all changed by leaps and bounds now. One cue comes to mind...he did some Rambow-type points (his first) into a cue that a buddy of mine has. Instead of them into the forearm or butt sleeve...they are are up and down into the wood handle!!! Really a super neat looking cue...very different. Plus, he gets some of the nicest woods.
Needless to say, they are becoming wildly popular here. He walked into a tourney one night with about 8-10 recently completed cues, and sold every one of them that night!Let me know if you would like his contact info.
Lisa
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pharaoh68 said:Wow!!! That has to be the longest shaft in the world!It must warp pretty easily though!
Ahhh, jeez....boy, did I fubar that or what?!
That should read 60" cues, not shafts...Lol.Lisa
runscott said:Okay, I see what you are saying. After the Varney fiasco thread, I have come to the conclusion that some cuemakers, and LOTS of cue-buyers (who somehow have strong opinions, but no money to back the up) use 'value' and 'price' interchangeably.
Another thought on 'price' vs 'value'. If you are selling a cue, and truly do know the 'market value', then your life is easy - price equals your perceived value. It also depends on where you are selling - internet value is certainly different from retail value, which is different from 'local value'. If you don't know the 'market value' (and no one ever does exactly down to the penny) for the market you are addressing, then you risk either not selling, or leaving money on the table. This is why auctions work well for sellers who don't know their item's market value. If you set your price higher than what your market perceives as its value, then you have to use advertising, self-promotion, etc., to bridge that gap...or lower your price. This isn't my opinion, it's something I studied for years, and I have two worthless pieces of paper to show for it
to add... what's really interesting also is the more expensive or valued a cue is perceived, most likely the less will be known about it's true market value. for some it could be "the sky's the limit", depending how many are aware of the sale of the item. sometimes when dealing with higher end big $ cues, depending on the cue of course, it might be better not to advertise on an open forum or auction site because this turns off some of the top collectors. some of them don't want many, if anyone, to know they bought the cue or even that it was exposed to so many before the news of it's availability got to them. that just leads to more questions which can lead back to the unveiling of their anonymity to the purchase. in these cases if all factors are good for the big time buyer he may pay a premium not expected for the "prize". it seems nutty but i've seen this a few times.
It's funny because there was a poll recently on what makes you buy a cue and "playability regardless of cuemaker and price" was number one.
There were a lot of comments concerning the price by people who admittingly never shot with or played with a Varney cue and judged the value/worth of it based on the cuemaker and the photos of the cue.
There were a lot of comments concerning the price by people who admittingly never shot with or played with a Varney cue and judged the value/worth of it based on the cuemaker and the photos of the cue.
I think a cue's value is determined by how much the customers are willing to pay for it on the used market.
If I buy a cue, never use it, and try to sell it in a week or so, will I be able to get close to what I paid for? That is what I would consider a good indication of the value the market preceives.
I agree that a cue maker can ask for any price he wants, and this should be respected.
On the other hand, questioning the value of a cue is, in my opinion, not out of line.
If you have a booth in a show, you will hear lots of customers come to you and ask you, "why so much?" "what is the big deal?" and so on. I would consider these valid questiones and try my best to address them.
A lot of posters here also question the description, the background and history of the seller, and anything they feel like questioning. It is up to the seller to decide if he wants to respond or not. Unfortunately, once the seller responds, it may turn the thread into a debate and then even a flame war in some instances.
The Sales/wanted section is like a vendor in a show/tournament, you will see all kinds of people, asking all kind of questions. It is important to know how to address them without being confrontational.
I totally respect Mr. Varney's right to defend himself. I can totally understand how a cue maker might feel insulted if someone questions his price--considering how much time and hard work he has put into a cue. I think that pride is what motivates a great product. I have no problem with that.
Mr. Varney obviously believe in his work, and have showed a lot of confidence.
On the other hand, I also respect the posters' rights to ask why the price was higher than what they expected, and I think it is valid to discuss the preceived value vs asking price of a cue. Some very good points were also raised.
In my humble opinion, I think Mr. Varney could do much better making the sales by putting his cue in the potential customer's hand, rather than doing it on line.
His claim of value is mostly about the playability, so it is important that his "hit" be felt and then liked by his customers. Perhaps Mr. Varney could bring his cues to the Derby and I am sure we will be more than happy to try them out.
Richard
If I buy a cue, never use it, and try to sell it in a week or so, will I be able to get close to what I paid for? That is what I would consider a good indication of the value the market preceives.
I agree that a cue maker can ask for any price he wants, and this should be respected.
On the other hand, questioning the value of a cue is, in my opinion, not out of line.
If you have a booth in a show, you will hear lots of customers come to you and ask you, "why so much?" "what is the big deal?" and so on. I would consider these valid questiones and try my best to address them.
A lot of posters here also question the description, the background and history of the seller, and anything they feel like questioning. It is up to the seller to decide if he wants to respond or not. Unfortunately, once the seller responds, it may turn the thread into a debate and then even a flame war in some instances.
The Sales/wanted section is like a vendor in a show/tournament, you will see all kinds of people, asking all kind of questions. It is important to know how to address them without being confrontational.
I totally respect Mr. Varney's right to defend himself. I can totally understand how a cue maker might feel insulted if someone questions his price--considering how much time and hard work he has put into a cue. I think that pride is what motivates a great product. I have no problem with that.
Mr. Varney obviously believe in his work, and have showed a lot of confidence.
On the other hand, I also respect the posters' rights to ask why the price was higher than what they expected, and I think it is valid to discuss the preceived value vs asking price of a cue. Some very good points were also raised.
In my humble opinion, I think Mr. Varney could do much better making the sales by putting his cue in the potential customer's hand, rather than doing it on line.
His claim of value is mostly about the playability, so it is important that his "hit" be felt and then liked by his customers. Perhaps Mr. Varney could bring his cues to the Derby and I am sure we will be more than happy to try them out.
Richard
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How about David Tice?ridewiththewind said:Well, I know that David Jones' cues are highly respected. I had a chance to hit a ball or two with one. The hit is similar to Skip's, but not quite. A stiff cue, I would say. He's in Lynnwood.
Paul Allers is the 'hot' guy here locally. He is outta Oak Harbor, on Whidbey. He is turning out some amazing cues, design-wise...for some pretty low dollars, IMHO. He specializes in 60" cues, and if you order a cue from him, you need to specify if it is to be a 58" cue...otherwise, it will be 60". I have one of his Hustlers that I played all of 9 Ball league with last year while I was waiting on my Skip. And it was a 60" cue. They have a nice balance point, I would say slightly forward. I am not overly fond of the 60" shaft, as it is not stiff enough to my liking. However, I have just seen one of his new laminated shafts he is making, and they are much stiffer, and appear very high quality...at least the one I saw. Paul is extremely passionate about what he is doing, and it is showing, as his work is getting better and better all the time. A few years ago, I would not have likely recommended him, as his work was just not quite there yet, to my eye...but that has all changed by leaps and bounds now. One cue comes to mind...he did some Rambow-type points (his first) into a cue that a buddy of mine has. Instead of them into the forearm or butt sleeve...they are are up and down into the wood handle!!! Really a super neat looking cue...very different. Plus, he gets some of the nicest woods.
Let me know if you would like his contact info.
Lisa
I would consider him the cue maker whose cue has the highest value in the WA area.
Thanks Lisa, Someone also recommended a guy who does cue repair out of Harvey's, but I can't remember his name. I've been playing mostly 9-ball lately, using a stiffer cue, so might want to try one of David Jones' cues - others have recommended his cues as well. Thanks!ridewiththewind said:Well, I know that David Jones' cues are highly respected. I had a chance to hit a ball or two with one. The hit is similar to Skip's, but not quite. A stiff cue, I would say. He's in Lynnwood.
Paul Allers is the 'hot' guy here locally. He is outta Oak Harbor, on Whidbey. ...
Let me know if you would like his contact info.
Lisa
nipponbilliards said:
Richard, I have only seen two of his cues. Neither 'wowed' me aesthetically, and I did not get a chance to shoot with either, so I cannot attest to their playability. He does not make very many cues, is my understanding.
Lisa
runscott said:
If you can't find one there to try out, and want to make a trek to the Skagit Valley, there is a new poolhall in Mt Vernon...Westside Billiards, I think. Anyway, 'lunchmoney' here on AZ has a beautiful Jones cue. You can see it in this thread, post #41:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=42504&page=2&highlight=wrapless+cues
Anyway, if you get in touch with him via PM, he may be able to meet up with ya @ the poolhall, and maybe he'll let ya try it out. Heck, I might even pop over...have been to the new place yet, as I have a table @ home.
Lisa