Vertical jumping... is it a FOUL?

Killer Miller

Killer Miller

LM Cues
Silver Member
I have many people asking me if my jump cue (the DEUCE) can jump a ball that is right next to it. It sure can, but man is it hard on your table.
I believe that when your cue is perpendicular to the slate and you hit straight down on the ball, you are actually hitting the cueball multiple times. You have to hit so close to the center of the cueball when jumping within 1 inch of the blocking ball that you have to be hitting the cueball more than once, that's what makes it bounce. Why doesn't anyone ever call a foul on this?
I'm not saying that every jumpshot is a foul but vertical jumping is a foul.
What you say?

Check out the review on the DEUCE from Iowa_player
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=61534&highlight=jump
 
Killer Miller said:
...
I'm not saying that every jumpshot is a foul but vertical jumping is a foul.
What you say?
...
Click to expand...
We had a discussion about a jump shot where Larry Nevel was getting over a ball only 1mm or so away. The conclusion was that it was inconclusive. This really needs a high-speed video (a few thousand frames per second) to see what's going on but no one has done the video yet.
 
Intuitively, it doesn't seem possible to me that there could be multiple hits.

Edit: Ok, I wasn't thinking of what happens once the CB is on the way up. It certainly looks like shaft/ferrule is giving the ball a little help in the x direction. Thanks Eric.
 
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Is shooting down below the center cue line an illegal jump shot? I have a friend who jacks up really high but aims very low on the cue ball like a draw shot. But he does not scoop it. I'm not sure what to make of that..
 
Killer Miller said:
I have many people asking me if my jump cue (the DEUCE) can jump a ball that is right next to it. It sure can, but man is it hard on your table.
I believe that when your cue is perpendicular to the slate and you hit straight down on the ball, you are actually hitting the cueball multiple times. You have to hit so close to the center of the cueball when jumping within 1 inch of the blocking ball that you have to be hitting the cueball more than once, that's what makes it bounce. Why doesn't anyone ever call a foul on this?
I'm not saying that every jumpshot is a foul but vertical jumping is a foul.
What you say?

Check out the review on the DEUCE from Iowa_player
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=61534&highlight=jump
Click to expand...

What do I say? I say I don't know. I have seen jump shots done with a dollar bill between the balls using a stock bunjee where the cue ball cleared the other ball without disturbing the bill. This was done on a $500 bet.

I don't think that the cue tip is double hitting the ball. I think that it is possible for the shaft to hit the ball and help it move forward but I am not sure.

I agree with Bob that it would be necessary to see a high speed video to be sure.

What we think might happen by just looking at the starting positions could be very surprising.

I have seen a person jump a full ball with a full cue at about half a chalk width's distance. Done by accident but there was no miscue. So I am led to believe that there is more to the physics of the jump shot than we can observe without aid.
 
Well, what would happen

if you called a ref to watch a vertical jump, and the ref called it good, and then you said that it is impossible to do since it was broken down on video on the most popular Billiards site, and that the 2nd hit is on the ferrule when the cue ball first lifts off giving it forward momentum.

What would the ref do then?
 
psykoyow said:
In the thread where I posted about 1mm jumps, the results were not inconclusive. Here's a clip I made to evidence the second contact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK9_kZToGLs

This is with a Lucasi jump cue, however.

-yow!
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To me this is obviously illegal as due to the backward angle the shaft of the cue is helping the cue ball forward in the natural stroke process. There should be a rule limiting shaft angle to cue ball at like 85 degrees or so to help officials out.

If you put the cue at 97 degrees like he has the cue it is like a shaft aided shot
 
In this vid you can see the cue displace to the left and the CB goes up and over the ball without a double hit on the shaft....
 

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Craig Fales said:
In this vid you can see the cue displace to the left and the CB goes up and over the ball without a double hit on the shaft....
Click to expand...

I may be seeing that shot a little differently, but I could swear I saw the CB rebound of the shaft propelling it forward. JMO though.
 
Bob Jewett said:
We had a discussion about a jump shot where Larry Nevel was getting over a ball only 1mm or so away. The conclusion was that it was inconclusive. This really needs a high-speed video (a few thousand frames per second) to see what's going on but no one has done the video yet.
Click to expand...


Bob, why call this a foul, when you are allowed to shoot directly thru a frozen object ball? The BCA has allowed the push shot to be legal.

Like Mike Shamos said, the BCA rules are in need of a major reworking.
 
psykoyow said:
In the thread where I posted about 1mm jumps, the results were not inconclusive. Here's a clip I made to evidence the second contact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK9_kZToGLs

This is with a Lucasi jump cue, however.

-yow!
Click to expand...

I believe this is a GOOD hit. Remember, you are hitting the back half of the ball, causing it to move forward. Actually, if it were a double hit, the shot might be much harder to execute. Hitting the ferrule might cause the cue ball to hit the object ball.
 
I think it should be possible to plot a simple ballistic trajectory for the CB in the case of the 1mm jump. For a given clearance (1mm or whatever), a necessary altitude could be calculated. That won't resolve the issue like a high speed filming could, but if the numbers say you need like 3 feet of climb to jump over at 1mm clearance, then I'm betting that the shaft/ferrule is imparting some of the necessary x velocity. If in fact the CB could clear the OB w/as little as 1 foot of altitude, then that's not definitive either but would have me leaning the other way.
 
jay helfert said:
Bob, why call this a foul, ...
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Because it is not permitted to shoot with your ferrule. That's the point of contention: does the cue ball touch the shaft or ferrule of the stick? Some think it does, others are sure it does not.

The videos I've seen so far about this are somewhere between pitiful and useless. For the video to be useful, you should be able to say how far from the ferrule the ball is in each frame with sub-millimeter accuracy. In the videos I've seen, the blurriness on the edge of the ball and shaft is a lot more than a millimeter. In addition, I think you need more than the standard 30 frames per second to see what's happening.

Maybe some of the shots that people have studied have been fouls and maybe some of them have been fair. It's hard to say, and the conclusions for one shot may not even remotely apply to another shot that looks very similar but is played with a different technique and by a different player with a different stick and tip.
 
I think the video posted was a bad hit - just my honest opinion. Looks like the shaft is what is propelling the CB forward. It could be just an illusion though from the poor video quality. I watched it 10x so far, and it really looks like the shaft pushes the CB. Anyone else wanna weigh-in?

The way to clear this is up is for the BCA to make a rule change saying you have to jump w/ the cue you shoot w/. I don't think anyone can argue that pool wasn't meant to be played in that fashion - jumping OBs that are an inch or two away.

I saw Neils Feijen play Strickland 2 or 3 years ago at the US Open. Neils was up a game or two on the wire (still a very close match) and Strickland LOCK-SAFED him about 3 inches behind a blocking ball. Neils went to his case, screwed together a really skinny, short jump cue and jumped his OB in and continued to win the game, and the set from that point. It was a crucial set-deciding shot and may have cost Earl his 6th. I can honestly say I totally felt for Earl (he was having a meltdown) - he played the safe perfectly and couldn't get paid.

Jump cues remind me of the "Alien Sand Wedge" in golf. Any golfers remember that??? It was a sand-wedge with slots cut straight through the face to allow sand to pass through the head.... essentially guaranteeing you'd blast out of the bunker perfectly (which, by the way, the USGA made completely illegal). You give the same golfer a regular sand wedge and they'd blade the golf ball over the green and through the glass at the pro shop (i.e. let's see anyone on planet earth jump that 1mm w/ your playing cue legally). Don't get me wrong, I love to see companies make money in the billiard industry - I just think the advent of some of these cues are detrimental to the integrity of the game - as it should be played. If golf makes gimmick clubs illegal, shouldn't the BCA make gimmick cues illegal?

Just my opinion. What does everyone else think??:)

Dave
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I think the video posted was a bad hit - just my honest opinion. Looks like the shaft is what is propelling the CB forward. It could be just an illusion though from the poor video quality. I watched it 10x so far, and it really looks like the shaft pushes the CB. Anyone else wanna weigh-in?......Just my opinion. What does everyone else think??
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I agree. The cue deflects away after initial impact and twangs the cue ball as it's rising causing it to move sideways, with a little help from the player giving it a nudge. I can't see where else the impetus could possibly come from. It's no coincidence that the cue strays well off line on the follow through on every shot. Compare the position and angle of the cue before impact with the position and angle of the cue after the ball has gone. It's being volleyed over the ball by the shaft.

Boro Nut
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I think the video posted was a bad hit - just my honest opinion. Looks like the shaft is what is propelling the CB forward. It could be just an illusion though from the poor video quality. I watched it 10x so far, and it really looks like the shaft pushes the CB. Anyone else wanna weigh-in?

The way to clear this is up is for the BCA to make a rule change saying you have to jump w/ the cue you shoot w/. I don't think anyone can argue that pool wasn't meant to be played in that fashion - jumping OBs that are an inch or two away.

I saw Neils Feijen play Strickland 2 or 3 years ago at the US Open. Neils was up a game or two on the wire (still a very close match) and Strickland LOCK-SAFED him about 3 inches behind a blocking ball. Neils went to his case, screwed together a really skinny, short jump cue and jumped his OB in and continued to win the game, and the set from that point. It was a crucial set-deciding shot and may have cost Earl his 6th. I can honestly say I totally felt for Earl (he was having a meltdown) - he played the safe perfectly and couldn't get paid.

Jump cues remind me of the "Alien Sand Wedge" in golf. Any golfers remember that??? It was a sand-wedge with slots cut straight through the face to allow sand to pass through the head.... essentially guaranteeing you'd blast out of the bunker perfectly (which, by the way, the USGA made completely illegal). You give the same golfer a regular sand wedge and they'd blade the golf ball over the green and through the glass at the pro shop (i.e. let's see anyone on planet earth jump that 1mm w/ your playing cue legally). Don't get me wrong, I love to see companies make money in the billiard industry - I just think the advent of some of these cues are detrimental to the integrity of the game - as it should be played. If golf makes gimmick clubs illegal, shouldn't the BCA make gimmick cues illegal?

Just my opinion. What does everyone else think??:)

Dave
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I believe that jump cues should definitely be legal. I know that when I am playing someone who CAN jump, I had better stick him to another ball to get safe. If I fail in a poor attempt to play D, by all means jump it and run out. It has greatly improved my defensive play. The jump shot is a great crowd pleaser but I think that the vertical jumping is illegal and should be left to the trickshot artists.
 
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