Viking Cues...........

[CocoboloCowboy]

Couple of DAYS ago a gentleman came in to our Pool Room, he was playing with a very old 4 Point Cue, I thought it was a Palmer because of the Silver Color Bands with writting in the Bands. Nope it was a 40 y/o in about 99% of NEW Condition. He has not played Pool in over 35 YEARS, and the Cue is NSF. Very nice playing Cue!

 

[TATE]

My Question is, are the Chinese to be blamed, or the competition? Or the people who sell cues in the USA who did not carry the Viking Line, or maybe we should blame the Boys & Girls in Washington D.C. who write, and vote on the law they write. Or better yet BLAME BUSH. Could it be Viking cues like GM, Chrysler, Eastman Kodak, had the attitude we are on top of the Mountain, like Eastman Kodak did, and never looked over their shoulder, as the competition was developing products for the further. Last could it be the recession, that has hurt so many Americans, and American businesses.

Last reason could be is Viking Cue were seldom a topic of discussion on THIS FORUM, so I wonder now who will be Mike Janis will replace Viking Cue with??

The answer is, a company cannot survive for long, profitably, with a higher cost structure than their competitors, unless they significantly differentiate their product.

It's crazy to try to go heads up with imports on the low end market. And make no mistake, the Chinese cues dom inate the low end market. To try to position your product against them, put a "Made in the USA" sticker on it and sell it for twice as much is a recipe for failure. It's a bad strategy!

The Chinese have made the investment in machinery and labor to mass produce cues in huge quantities. You know what? They're getting better all the time too. They don't have the great quality control but they can make sheer numbers of average cues.

Look, even the Chinese don't want Chinese cues. But they are the most affordable ones around. American companies have to think about how they can get into the rapidly growing Asian market.

Chris

 

[manwon]

The answer is, a company cannot survive for long, profitably, with a higher cost structure than their competitors, unless they significantly differentiate their product.

It's crazy to try to go heads up with imports on the low end market. And make no mistake, the Chinese cues dom inate the low end market. To try to position your product against them, put a "Made in the USA" sticker on it and sell it for twice as much is a recipe for failure. It's a bad strategy!

The Chinese have made the investment in machinery and labor to mass produce cues in huge quantities. You know what? They're getting better all the time too. They don't have the great quality control but they can make sheer numbers of average cues.

Look, even the Chinese don't want Chinese cues. But they are the most affordable ones around. American companies have to think about how they can get into the rapidly growing Asian market.

Chris

Chris I agree with you completely, and I am glad you have the patients to respond to Cowboys post because I had a hard time digesting it's content much less making so eloquent a response!!!!!!!:thumbup:

Chris you are a class act that few can follow!!:yeah::yeah:

Take Care Chris

 

[TATE]

Chris I agree with you completely, and I am glad you have the patients to respond to Cowboys post because I had a hard time digesting it's content much less making so eloquent a response!!!!!!!:thumbup:

Chris you are a class act that few can follow!!:yeah::yeah:

Take Care Chris

Thank you Craig, appreciate it very much.

Chris

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Bottom line is the Chinese are the bad guys in some people eyes. Maybe they are only picking up in the areas where the Japanese left off. Think about all the great product coming out of Japanese own companies, some of these products are no longer made in Japan, and are even made in MEXICO. So is it the Japanese, Chinese, or the people in Washington D.C. who allow many of these product to come in to the USA with little or no duty.

BTW I drive a KIA, it was made in Korea, best set of wheel I have ever owned, now KIA has a Plant in the USA building 2011 Sorrento's.

Also if you drive ANY GM Name Product made after 1995, or newer if you remove all the GENUINE GM PARTS made in China, you Car, SUV, Light Truck it will not run!

 

[Brain71]

It is certainly a shame, soon if you want to buy American you will have to build it yourself, it seems that competition with China in the billiards industry is more than even our oldest companies can handle. :embarrassed2:

I think it's more because the cue making industry is flooded. Every other day I read on here about someone new making cues. I can certainly see where it's hard to even make a living making cues much less building a business and keeping it up.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I think it's more because the cue making industry is flooded. Every other day I read on here about someone new making cues. I can certainly see where it's hard to even make a living making cues much less building a business and keeping it up.

Your point is valid, and you need only look at the AZB WANTED FOR SALE Section, or e-bay to see how the Cue Market has changed in the last 18-24 Months. Could this be why we now have a RAFFLE SECTION!

 

[Nick B]

CCC I think your carrying a flask of moonshine in your saddle pouch. I'm sure it was Kodak's attitude that brought digital cameras to the market. If I invented a Teleporter is it Boeing's fault they are dead?

Teletype, Fax machine, Computer, Smartphone...back to my lab for work on teleporter. Call Seattle and tell your friends to start selling their homes.

My Question is, are the Chinese to be blamed, or the competition? Or the people who sell cues in the USA who did not carry the Viking Line, or maybe we should blame the Boys & Girls in Washington D.C. who write, and vote on the law they write. Or better yet BLAME BUSH. Could it be Viking cues like GM, Chrysler, Eastman Kodak, had the attitude we are on top of the Mountain, like Eastman Kodak did, and never looked over their shoulder, as the competition was developing products for the further. Last could it be the recession, that has hurt so many Americans, and American businesses.

Last reason could be is Viking Cue were seldom a topic of discussion on THIS FORUM, so I wonder now who will be Mike Janis will replace Viking Cue with??

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

CCC I think your carrying a flask of moonshine in your saddle pouch. I'm sure it was Kodak's attitude that brought digital cameras to the market.

Have sold Graphic Art Products, I saw 3M, Fuji, and a few other eat Kodak's Market Share, and working 20 years as a Freelance Photographer before DIGITAL, Fuji gobbled up the Kodak's share of the film industry with BETTER PRODUCTS!

Kind of how the Germany when from building the BEST Camera's and Lenses in the World, to playing Second Fiddle to Japan, who were where CANON, and NIKON came from the First Choice of working photojournalists!

 

[Nick B]

So how is Fuji & 3M doing with their film business or was it a paradigm shift? When your market leader from the outside it looks silly to let competitors gobble market share while you maintain profit margins.

Such is the cycle of business life. IBM, Commodore, Tandy are not in the PC business any more. Is IBM out of typewriters because of cheaper competitors?

Born in the USA. Carrying a Chinese case. Well done. For what it's worth I'm a Canadian carrying a Canadian hand made cue. Now we return to our regular programming.

Have sold Graphic Art Products, I saw 3M, Fuji, and a few other eat Kodak's Market Share, and working 20 years as a Freelance Photographer before DIGITAL, Fuji gobbled up the Kodak's share of the film industry with BETTER PRODUCTS!

Kind of how the Germany when from building the BEST Camera's and Lenses in the World, to playing Second Fiddle to Japan, who were where CANON, and NIKON came from the First Choice of working photojournalists!

 

[manwon]

I think it's more because the cue making industry is flooded. Every other day I read on here about someone new making cues. I can certainly see where it's hard to even make a living making cues much less building a business and keeping it up.

Brian I agree that the industry is flooded, but I suspect that all the custom cues and production cues made in the USA make up less than 5 % of the cues that are annually imported from China alone. But I disagree that the guy building cues in his or her basement or garage has much influence on a National company like Viking. Most hobbyists have a local following, and if they are in a location where they have little outside access they sell their products on forums like this.

Take care Brian

 

[Brain71]

Brian I agree that the industry is flooded, but I suspect that all the custom cues and production cues made in the USA make up less than 5 % of the cues that are annually imported from China alone. But I disagree that the guy building cues in his or her basement or garage has much influence on a National company like Viking. Most hobbyists have a local following, and if they are in a location where they have little outside access they sell their products on forums like this.

Take care Brian

But how much is imported from China? I have never dealt with an imported cue. Especially here on AZ. I'm saying in the past 10 years the market has almost tripled. Which has a gross affect on national companies like Viking. Look at Blackcreek cues, Tony Zinzola, Bryan Mordt (BCM), just to name a few. My opinion is they build a hell of alot better cue than Viking ever will and they are home based cue makers. Meaning their shops are right out back so to speak. I'm truly sorry Viking is closing it's doors but I also forsee alot of other companies doing the same. I've been reading alot about how Meucci is taking a turn for the worst. In quality and customer service. Production cues have always been turned away from from what I have seen on the wanted/for sale section. I may be speculating but anyone. If you could get a Meucci or a Cog at the same price, which way are you going to go?

 

[JB Cases]

But how much is imported from China? I have never dealt with an imported cue. Especially here on AZ. I'm saying in the past 10 years the market has almost tripled. Which has a gross affect on national companies like Viking. Look at Blackcreek cues, Tony Zinzola, Bryan Mordt (BCM), just to name a few. My opinion is they build a hell of alot better cue than Viking ever will and they are home based cue makers. Meaning their shops are right out back so to speak. I'm truly sorry Viking is closing it's doors but I also forsee alot of other companies doing the same. I've been reading alot about how Meucci is taking a turn for the worst. In quality and customer service. Production cues have always been turned away from from what I have seen on the wanted/for sale section. I may be speculating but anyone. If you could get a Meucci or a Cog at the same price, which way are you going to go?

I once read a quote that McDermott's biggest year was 60,000 cues and that was at the height of the boom after the Color of Money. And a LOT of those cues were being exported to Europe and Japan.

So if that was McDermott's peak then where are they now when the market is very soft?

Put the output of all the small cue makers in the USA at a modest 25 cues per maker on average and figure that there are around 500 active cue makers then you have 12,500 cues in the $500 average moving into the market every year. Couple that with a thriving secondary market where people are buying and selling cues, AZ, EBay, Craigslist and you have less buyers for new cues.

And the market is flooded. It's a consumer's paradise when it comes to cues, especially right now. Demand has slowed considerably and the selling landscape is very different than it was 15 years ago.

There are very few stocking dealers left. Most poolrooms and retail shops order in the bare minimum because they get beat up by internet dealers. They let themselves get beat up though but that's another story for another time. I guarantee you if I had a pool room or a retail store then NO internet dealer would EVER have a better price than me on ANYTHING. Add to that the fact that just about anyone can get an account from the wholesale companies and buy at wholesale prices with no minimums.

This practice puts a hurting on business all throughout the chain. It makes it difficult to plan inventory, difficult to compete when Fred at the pool room can sell you a Viking for 10% over cost and his total investment is 10cts to make the phone call.

Be honest, how many of you have shopped a product at a retail store in full knowledge that you will not buy it there because you know the price is lower on the net? You just want to see and feel the product before you pull the trigger. So you use the store's resources, building, lights, stocking personnel, and their investment to satisfy your curiosity and put your mind at ease and then go home and order the product. So imagine if that happens with Viking cues? Except that you can't FIND Viking cues in retail stores because dealers stopped stocking them since they didn't want to compete with the net on price.

Now again, this is another topic but I honestly believe that in today's landscape retailers need to be willing to sell for lower prices to be more competitive with the net. I would NEVER lose a sale to the net on an identical product, never. Why?

Because I would have a computer set up on my counter with every known website selling pool gear and whenever anyone came in looking at a cue I would look it up and offer it to them for the internet price AND tell them that it will ship to ME and if anything is wrong with it then I will handle it.

Anyway who knows really why Viking is going under? I am sure that some folks have talked to the Harts and have a clear understanding of why. I would not doubt that competitive pressure plays a big part of it. 45 years is not a bad run though in my opinion. A lot of companies don't make it half that long.

They have been a leader in the business, innovative with their designs and brought us some of the most entertaining catalogs and commercials.

I offer my condolences to the Harts for the loss of their business and my heartfelt thanks for all that they have done in this business for the past 45 years. We at Sterling have always been very proud that we are a Viking dealer and we have tried to keep a good amount on stock. It's certainly a loss to us to lose a great supplier like Viking.

 

[TheThaiger]

I haven't been using this forum long but have noticed a lot of negative posts regarding viking cues, which surprised me as I have one and it plays great.

Powerful thing, the internet.

 

[TheThaiger]

My Question is, are the Chinese to be blamed, or the competition? Or the people who sell cues in the USA who did not carry the Viking Line, or maybe we should blame the Boys & Girls in Washington D.C. who write, and vote on the law they write. Or better yet BLAME BUSH. Could it be Viking cues like GM, Chrysler, Eastman Kodak, had the attitude we are on top of the Mountain, like Eastman Kodak did, and never looked over their shoulder, as the competition was developing products for the further. Last could it be the recession, that has hurt so many Americans, and American businesses.

Last reason could be is Viking Cue were seldom a topic of discussion on THIS FORUM, so I wonder now who will be Mike Janis will replace Viking Cue with??

I remember seeing a stat from a few years ago regarding china's rise as the 'factory of the world'. The researchers bought a toy for £10 from China, and worked out that £9 of that remained in the UK, with only £1 going to China. IP, design, IT, marketing, shipping et al were controlled by western companies. That balance will shift in time, but it is a mistake to think we in the west do not benefit also.

We are essentially shifting low tech, low paid jobs to the east and developing high spec and high paid jobs in the west in return. Maybe the recent financial tsunami has seen saturation point in both positions - if so, that's a real worry.

Time to rebalance a little, but protectionism would be an utter disaster; mutually assured destruction.

 

[TheThaiger]

This is an American site, so to have lots of people 'big-up' American cues and products is understandable, but I feel it goes too far. If you love pool, you should seek the best for it no matter where it lies. If Japanese and Chinese manufacturers make the best cues, deal with it and compete, or find alternative markets.

No one here in Europe drives an American car, nor will we until your quality matches Japanese/Korean/German. The UK squandered billions trying to prop up terrible car makers until the inevitable happened.

 

[Georgia Boy]

Some good points by many people here. But TheThaiger it runs a little deeper than that doesn't it? British Automobile Makers were arguably the best in the World until they became so unionised you couldn't work there unless you were a member, if the Shop Steward said jump they did, if he said you take a piss at 9.30 every morning thats what you did. Heaven forbid you were one of those people and didn't go on strike every other week in the 70's and support the Union in it's outrageous demands. The British Automobile industry ultimately killed itself, which is a real shame and the Labour Government of the time enabled that to happen. Every time a Union said jump Harold Wilson said 'Yes Sir how high would you like me to jump' and kept poring billions of pounds into the industry. The worse cars ever made came from the biggest 'Lame Duck' of them all British Leyland, it's close between the Austin Maxi, the Austin Princess and the Morris Marina. OMG they were junk!

As for Japenese/Korean/German cars being best I would agree with that statement until at least the last two years. You only have to look at recent problems and recalls from Honda and especially Toyota to see the problems can be Global. A lot of new American cars are now high up if not top of many of the ratings by various review bodies.

Cues are now made all over the World and sent to various corners of the globe to be sold. I don't think the Chinese make bad products and costs are considerably cheaper for the time being, so a manufacturer is always going to look there to lower costs. However what manufacturers and consumers must understand is that there will be a shift away from these current low costs area's. Wealth and living standards there are and will continue to rise until economically it makes more sense to look for new markets to make cheap goods. The manufacturers will do just that and move on to these newer chaeper markets without a 2 nd thought.

I don't think Government protectionism is a way forward but consumer protectionism is a valid point. If you can afford to buy products that are made in your country and those products are as good or better than the competition you should do that.

Lastly, never pay the sticker price in any traditional store for any large ticket item, I never do even in Walmart you can negotiate! Always ask to speak to the Dept or Store Manager and then show them an online advertisment or competitors add and ask them to match or better it. Even if you don't have those with you, still ask, what can they do? They will say Yes or No, if they say no move on to the next store!

 

[cardiac kid]

CCC I think your carrying a flask of moonshine in your saddle pouch. I'm sure it was Kodak's attitude that brought digital cameras to the market. If I invented a Teleporter is it Boeing's fault they are dead?

Teletype, Fax machine, Computer, Smartphone...back to my lab for work on teleporter. Call Seattle and tell your friends to start selling their homes.

Nick,

On this you are wrong. Eastman Kodak went through a stage like most major American companies who thought they were indispensable, irreplaceable and became arrogant. From first hand knowledge, Kodak had digital knowhow years before the Japanese. The CEO at the time decided film was their core business. Digital was a distraction. Research was shut down. Key employees were transferred to other areas or allowed to leave. Where is Kodak now? Rochester had nearly 50,000 Kodakers. Today, less than 7,000 and they are waiting for the axe. Kodak allowed this to happen. We don't fault the Japanese. Canon and Nikon took advantage of our blissful stupidity. Profit for the shareholders comes first. Nothing else mattered. Share price equals bonuses. Same today as over thirty years ago. Nothing seems to change.

Lyn

 

[Georgia Boy]

Nick,

On this you are wrong. Eastman Kodak went through a stage like most major American companies who thought they were indispensable, irreplaceable and became arrogant. From first hand knowledge, Kodak had digital knowhow years before the Japanese. The CEO at the time decided film was their core business. Digital was a distraction. Research was shut down. Key employees were transferred to other areas or allowed to leave. Where is Kodak now? Rochester had nearly 50,000 Kodakers. Today, less than 7,000 and they are waiting for the axe. Kodak allowed this to happen. We don't fault the Japanese. Canon and Nikon took advantage of our blissful stupidity. Profit for the shareholders comes first. Nothing else mattered. Share price equals bonuses. Same today as over thirty years ago. Nothing seems to change.

Lyn

Lyn
As far as I remember you are right about the problem with Kodak, as with many others, appears to be their inability to change quick enough once they realise their mistakes.

I believe Viking cues are as good a production cue as is out there, I play with one. I have custom and other production cues but am still playing with my Viking, it just feels great in my hand and that's to me what counts.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

So maybe it is the consumer world wide who is to blame, and maybe the problem is not new!

Did not the people in the old world send ships afar to gather good from countries, like Spices, Cotton, Tabasco? Why because they were not native to Spain, England, etc.

Wonder what our homes would look like, our lives would be with our product not made in our native country, as we have members from around the globe here on AZB.

I use gas in my KIA, that come mostly from the middle east.

Have a couple of leg braces, for arthritis made by a German company in Mexico.

Cuemakers made Cues I own from woods that come mostly NOT grown in the USA.

My TV, Computer, Cellphone, wife's IPOD was not manufactured by a U.S. company.

My Haines, Jocky, Wranglers, Fruit of the Loom products all were made off shore.

My Tennis Shoe I wear daily were made by ASIC, and manufactured in Viet Nam, and Indonesia.

Most of the spies in my package food product I have in the cupboard, and spice I add to my food were not grown in the US.

Someone did say it is a global thing, and the Diamond in my wide Wedding Set sure as heck was not found in it raw in the USA.

BTW I just put on a Pot of Coffee, and the BEANS WERE NOT GROWN in the USA.