Vintage Helmstetter? Do you know?

[Covelo]

Could you guys help me out here? I'm not sure how old this is, or if this is even a Helmstetter, but the guy who gave it to me to sell is in his 70's and says it's a Helmstetter. It has two shafts, one with a billiards taper and the other with more of a regular cue taper.

I'm going to sell it, but not sure about how much it's worth... what do you guys think?:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2825/dsc04691uh9.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2825/dsc04691uh9.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3492/dsc04692lf1.jpg
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/1601/dsc04694iq4.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/919/dsc04695ar8.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9715/dsc04696rg7.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5117/dsc04699kt4.jpg

Any thoughts or info would be appreciated.
Thanks...
Covelo

 

[Covelo]

Does anybody know?

Does anyone know what the age of this cue may be, or if it's for sure a Helmstetter?

It has the look of having some good age to it by looking at the discolored butt end. I am pretty sure it's a Helmstetter, but just wanted to be more positive.

Thanks,
Covelo

 

[LoGiC]

The Third Edition of the Blue book of pool cues is on google books. I searched about this for you, and the book said its a collectible, since the wood joint was something rare, done in the 70s. It didn't offer a price though.

Good luck to you- I'd make an offer if I had the extra cash.

 

[Covelo]

The Third Edition of the Blue book of pool cues is on google books. I searched about this for you, and the book said its a collectible, since the wood joint was something rare, done in the 70s. It didn't offer a price though.

Good luck to you- I'd make an offer if I had the extra cash.

Thanks for the check and tips, my friend, I didn't know about the google books thing. All it takes is some friendly folks out there helpin' each other out and we might really get somewhere.

 

[manwon]

Thanks for the check and tips, my friend, I didn't know about the google books thing. All it takes is some friendly folks out there helpin' each other out and we might really get somewhere.

I suspect the cue is a Hanbat, which are made in South Korea. Hanbat cues generally only have a sticker on the butt cap that Identifies the weight and the makers name. Hanbat cues also used the type of bumper pictured in the photo's, and the inlays are also typical. The cue was made for 3-Cushion Billiards and this also is typical of Hanbat cues.

If it were a Helmstetter cue it would be signed between the cues points, either RCH Helmstetter or Helmstetter. The cue does not appear to have been refinished by your photo's. Please remove the bumper and take another photo of the cue without bumper. Take the photo at an angle up inside.

Hope this helps!!!!!

 

[Covelo]

I suspect the cue is a Hanbat, which are made in South Korea. Hanbat cues generally only have a sticker on the butt cap that Identifies the weight and the makers name. Hanbat cues also used the type of bumper pictured in the photo's, and the inlays are also typical. The cue was made for 3-Cushion Billiards and this also is typical of Hanbat cues.

If it were a Helmstetter cue it would be signed between the cues points, either RCH Helmstetter or Helmstetter. The cue does not appear to have been refinished by your photo's. Please remove the bumper and take another photo of the cue without bumper. Take the photo at an angle up inside.

Hope this helps!!!!!

Thanks for the info, but I don't think all of the Helmstetters were signed, as it mentions in the Pool Cue Blue Book, it just mentions that the signed ones are more desirable. The cue doesn't appear to be refinished to me either, with some chipping in a few spots.

Why would you suggest to take a photo inside the butt cap, is there something I should be looking for in there?

Thanks again, my friend.

PS- When did they start making the Hanbat cues? I wasn't able to find that one in the Pool Cue Blue Book.

 

[manwon]

Thanks for the info, but I don't think all of the Helmstetters were signed, as it mentions in the Pool Cue Blue Book, it just mentions that the signed ones are more desirable. The cue doesn't appear to be refinished to me either, with some chipping in a few spots.

Why would you suggest to take a photo inside the butt cap, is there something I should be looking for in there?

Thanks again, my friend.

PS- When did they start making the Hanbat cues? I wasn't able to find that one in the Pool Cue Blue Book.

They have been making them for almost 40 years. If I see the inside of the butt, I most likely can tell the difference whether there is a weight bolt or not.

Remeber, while the Blue Book is a good reference guide it is not nearly a complete guide. The cue doesn't appear to be a Helmstetter, however, I could be wrong.

 

[Covelo]

They have been making them for almost 40 years. If I see the inside of the butt, I most likely can tell the difference whether there is a weight bolt or not.

Remeber, while the Blue Book is a good reference guide it is not nearly a complete guide. The cue doesn't appear to be a Helmstetter, however, I could be wrong.

There is a weight bolt in there, a pretty good sized one at that.

Why would you say it doesn't appear to be a Helmstetter? Just because of the signed thing, or for any other reasons? In the Blue Book I saw very similar design patterns to this one under the Helmstetter listings.

I will find out more tomorrow when I speak with the previous owner of the cue.

PS- Did the older Hanbat cues also use the wooden shaft joint like this one has?

 

[jay helfert]

Definitely a Helmstetter style joint. I never saw anyone else make a joint like that.

 

[manwon]

There is a weight bolt in there, a pretty good sized one at that.

Why would you say it doesn't appear to be a Helmstetter? Just because of the signed thing, or for any other reasons? In the Blue Book I saw very similar design patterns to this one under the Helmstetter listings.

I will find out more tomorrow when I speak with the previous owner of the cue.

PS- Did the older Hanbat cues also use the wooden shaft joint like this one has?

Here are some photo's of Hanbat cues









Keep in mind these are newer models of Hanbat cues that I have sold. I have also handled Helmstetter cue through my retail store. The butt of the cue looks like the quality of Hanbat cues. Hanbat has been a large supplier of 3-Cushion cues since the 1960's, in the USA and throughout Europe.

Like I have said if you take a photo with the bumper removed I can tell you for certain. The weight bolts and the inside of the butt tell the entire story to the trained eye.

Oh and by the way, the screw joint is not uncommon, it has been used in Import and US 3-Cushion cues for more than 100 years.

 

[jay helfert]

Well, waddya know. Although I do think the ring on the joint of the Helmstetter is a little different than the Hanbat cue.

 

[larrynj1]

here are some helmstetter ccs cues, all with pool tapered shafts, note the 1" ferrules and 13+mm tips. the 3 cushion shafts i've seen do not have a joint ring, although i'm sure that's not always the case.

your cue's shafts look to be billiard shafts, based solely on the short ferrules and 11 mm sizes.also, your cues butt has the same abalone inlay. sure looks like a helmstetter to me.
edit - actually the wood screw is different as well as the bumper. i changed my mind - maybe it's not a helmstetter.

also, helmstetter wood screw joints are far from rare. they were the most popular and best selling billiard cues for many years.

 

[larrynj1]

here's a shot a the pool tapered shaft's ferrule - note it's length -

 

[Covelo]

Here are some photo's of Hanbat cues

View attachment 66450

View attachment 66451

View attachment 66452

View attachment 66453

Keep in mind these are newer models of Hanbat cues that I have sold. I have also handled Helmstetter cue through my retail store. The butt of the cue looks like the quality of Hanbat cues. Hanbat has been a large supplier of 3-Cushion cues since the 1960's, in the USA and throughout Europe.

Like I have said if you take a photo with the bumper removed I can tell you for certain. The weight bolts and the inside of the butt tell the entire story to the trained eye.

Oh and by the way, the screw joint is not uncommon, it has been used in Import and US 3-Cushion cues for more than 100 years.

I might get that photo up later today, but you still haven't answered my question about when the Hanbat cues started making this kind of joint. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Thanks...

 

[Covelo]

here are some helmstetter ccs cues, all with pool tapered shafts, note the 1" ferrules and 13+mm tips. the 3 cushion shafts i've seen do not have a joint ring, although i'm sure that's not always the case.

your cue's shafts look to be billiard shafts, based solely on the short ferrules and 11 mm sizes.also, your cues butt has the same abalone inlay. sure looks like a helmstetter to me.
edit - actually the wood screw is different as well as the bumper. i changed my mind - maybe it's not a helmstetter.

also, helmstetter wood screw joints are far from rare. they were the most popular and best selling billiard cues for many years.

My stick here is older so someone would have to have an older one on hand to make an accurate comparison. I was also wondering why some helmstetters are signed and some aren't... of the older ones? Were the oldest ones the unsigned ones?

Thanks,
Covelo

 

[pdcue]

Does anyone know what the age of this cue may be, or if it's for sure a Helmstetter?

It has the look of having some good age to it by looking at the discolored butt end. I am pretty sure it's a Helmstetter, but just wanted to be more positive.

Thanks,
Covelo

A pic of the WHOLE cue butt would have been nice

Disclaimer - based on what I can tell - and what I can remember,
I only sold a very few Adam - and maybe 2 with the threaded
wood tenon joint

the cue pictured, - IIRC is not a Helmstetter,
but rather an Adam - at least they were marketed by Adam -moderate
priced line of pool cues - looks like he got a Billiard shaft also
prob retailed for roughly $100 in late 70s

FWIW - Jayman(?) is pretty sporty on Adam - he might know
more about the cue.

HTH
Dale

 

[manwon]

I might get that photo up later today, but you still haven't answered my question about when the Hanbat cues started making this kind of joint. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Thanks...

Yes I did, they were using that joint from the 1960's when they started making cues until now, they still use it.

 

[Covelo]

Yes I did, they were using that joint from the 1960's when they started making cues until now, they still use it.

OK, I guess you implied that in your other message, but I didn't think that's what you were saying... thanks.

I will have another image of the butt end as requested later on Tuesday and maybe, just maybe, we'll be able to settle this mystery.

Thanks to everyone for the history lessons...

PS- How about if you let me know what you will be looking for before I get the image up, so I'll know exactly what I should be capturing, and so there's not much of a chance of misreading the image somehow, and to prove to myself that you really do know what you're looking for.

 

[junksecret]

here are some helmstetter ccs cues, all with pool tapered shafts, note the 1" ferrules and 13+mm tips. the 3 cushion shafts i've seen do not have a joint ring, although i'm sure that's not always the case.

your cue's shafts look to be billiard shafts, based solely on the short ferrules and 11 mm sizes.also, your cues butt has the same abalone inlay. sure looks like a helmstetter to me.
edit - actually the wood screw is different as well as the bumper. i changed my mind - maybe it's not a helmstetter.

also, helmstetter wood screw joints are far from rare. they were the most popular and best selling billiard cues for many years.

And I see yours are C.C.S. which stood for Carl Conlin Services. I believe for some period of time Carl was the sole U.S. Importer of the wood screw Helmstetter billiard cues, but in later years I bought several without the C.C.S. I also had a cpl of Longoni's in that era that had shafts which interchanged perfectly with the Helmstetters. There was also one other that shared the exact joint, JOBA or something I think.

Btw, NICE collection of older C.C.S Helmstetters.

Joe

 

[larrynj1]

thanks joe. fyi, the ccs stands for carl conlon special, at least per dennis deickman, who was an old friend of mr. conlon.