Wagon Wheel System: weird or superb!?

CurvedCue

CurvedCue

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A friend gave me a copy of Ted Brown’s Wagon Wheel system.

But…

…Ted mentions that when practicing the Wagon Wheel: “you may move the cue ball a little to your left as you progress.” This is confirmed by the drawings, which show the CB placed further to the left to achieve a wider angle carom.

But doesn’t this defeat the whole purpose of learning how to control the CB??? I can't do this exercise with the CB in the same position each time??? :shrug:

And to achieve the 90-degree (tangent line) path, Ted says to shoot with “Stop-English” or having the top of your tip on the CB’s equator (so the hit is BELOW center)

Ah! This explains why I can never get the CB to follow the tangent line when shooting dead center.

So then why do so many other books say using Center–Shot will stop or stun the ball??? :scratchhead:

I was planning to try this system out tomorrow and wanted to be clear on it, so I don’t get too frustrated and break my cue in half or whatever. :yikes:

Thnx! :smile:
 
Last edited:
CurvedCue...There is no such thing as "stop english". There is such a thing as a center ball hit. When the CB is sliding (so either as a centerball stun stroke, or drawing the CB so that it loses the backspin just before contact with the OB), the CB will first stop when it collides directly into another ball (straight in). If the collision occurs at an angle, the CB will leave at 90 degrees if sliding/skidding, or 30 degrees if rolling. Only topspin and draw change tangent line. Right or left spin have no effect on how this happens. Sidespin only affects the CB when it hits the rail (unless you have top or bottom spin along with english). You are also very likely hitting higher on the CB than you think...most people do, due to an optical illusion. Hope this helps.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

CurvedCue said:
A friend gave me a copy of Ted Brown’s Wagon Wheel system.

But…

…Ted mentions that when practicing the Wagon Wheel: “you may move the cue ball a little to your left as you progress.” This is confirmed by the drawings, which show the CB placed further to the left to achieve a wider angle carom.

But doesn’t this defeat the whole purpose of learning how to control the CB??? I can't do this exercise with the CB in the same position each time??? :shrug:

And to achieve the 90-degree (tangent line) path, Ted says to shoot with “Stop-English” or having the top of your tip on the CB’s equator (so the hit is BELOW center)

Ah! This explains why I can never get the CB to follow the tangent line when shooting dead center.

So then why do so many other books say using Center–Shot will stop or stun the ball??? :scratchhead:

I was planning to try this system out tomorrow and wanted to be clear on it, so I don’t get too frustrated and break my cue in half or whatever. :yikes:

Thnx! :smile:
Click to expand...
 
When going from fuller hits towards thinner hits, the range of paths (angles) you can send the cue ball down gets smaller. Making the shot fuller makes it easier/possible to hit the targets at the extremes. It also will shorten the distance the cue ball travels after the hit for a given speed.
 
CurvedCue said:
A friend gave me a copy of Ted Brown’s Wagon Wheel system.

But…

…Ted mentions that when practicing the Wagon Wheel: “you may move the cue ball a little to your left as you progress.” This is confirmed by the drawings, which show the CB placed further to the left to achieve a wider angle carom.

But doesn’t this defeat the whole purpose of learning how to control the CB??? I can't do this exercise with the CB in the same position each time??? :shrug:

And to achieve the 90-degree (tangent line) path, Ted says to shoot with “Stop-English” or having the top of your tip on the CB’s equator (so the hit is BELOW center)

Ah! This explains why I can never get the CB to follow the tangent line when shooting dead center.

So then why do so many other books say using Center–Shot will stop or stun the ball??? :scratchhead:

I was planning to try this system out tomorrow and wanted to be clear on it, so I don’t get too frustrated and break my cue in half or whatever. :yikes:

Thnx! :smile:
Click to expand...


Imo the small book from Ted is superb.

How Scott Lee shown up- it s often a misunderstanding if ppl talk about *stun-shot*, *Center-shot* etc.

In the book Ted is trying (imo most of the time very correct) to learn *the student* by using the vertical axis correctly.
By playing the *complete* wagon wheel drill the sense is to run through this drill by using the *complete vertical axis* on the cueball". Imo it s a fantastic drill to learn how to control your stroke and how to control the speed. Using english makes absolutley no sense here.

At the beginning you might try to start with ball in hand- but imo the *fixed* cueball-position forces you to understand and learn better. But that s just my personal opinion from my expirience.

have a smooth stroke
 
I think that Ted Brown invented one of the best ways for learning cue ball control. Here is my revised version of his method.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/CBControl1.htm

As you can see I recommend placing the cue ball in the same place.

Call it by whatever name you choose. The "Stop Shot" to run the cue ball down the tangent line is the most important shot you can learn. The intent is to have the cue ball stop rolling forward or backward when it makes contact with the object ball. This is usually accomplished with some amount of draw.

One of the advantages of Ted's system is that you learn to move the cue ball by diamonds and you learn the cue tip offsets you need to accomplish this. I have found that learning the system generalizes to many (not all) shots later on.

When you have mastered Ted's shots you have gone far in your mastery of cue ball control. You also learn that you usually need very little side spin to accomplish many positions. This is a good thing.
 
there's NO OTHER CHOICE......if you want to win that is.

CurvedCue said:
A friend gave me a copy of Ted Brown’s Wagon Wheel system.

But…

…Ted mentions that when practicing the Wagon Wheel: “you may move the cue ball a little to your left as you progress.” This is confirmed by the drawings, which show the CB placed further to the left to achieve a wider angle carom.

But doesn’t this defeat the whole purpose of learning how to control the CB??? I can't do this exercise with the CB in the same position each time??? :shrug:

And to achieve the 90-degree (tangent line) path, Ted says to shoot with “Stop-English” or having the top of your tip on the CB’s equator (so the hit is BELOW center)

Ah! This explains why I can never get the CB to follow the tangent line when shooting dead center.

So then why do so many other books say using Center–Shot will stop or stun the ball??? :scratchhead:

I was planning to try this system out tomorrow and wanted to be clear on it, so I don’t get too frustrated and break my cue in half or whatever. :yikes:

Thnx! :smile:
Click to expand...

This makes the game complicated to play, but is ok to practice. At some point we need to know how to apply english, but for the most part you can get anywhere on the table with little or no spin.......it's like golf, spin is only good if you HAVE to use it because it usually makes the shots more difficult.

Even practicing extreme english is ok in moderation, but I don't advise using it in a game unless there's NO OTHER CHOICE......if you want to win that is. ;)
 
CJ Wiley said:
This makes the game complicated to play, but is ok to practice. At some point we need to know how to apply english, but for the most part you can get anywhere on the table with little or no spin.......it's like golf, spin is only good if you HAVE to use it because it usually makes the shots more difficult.

Even practicing extreme english is ok in moderation, but I don't advise using it in a game unless there's NO OTHER CHOICE......if you want to win that is. ;)
Click to expand...

cj how does the wagon system work wit TOI??
since its based on center axis??
 
CJ Wiley said:
This makes the game complicated to play, but is ok to practice. At some point we need to know how to apply english, but for the most part you can get anywhere on the table with little or no spin.......it's like golf, spin is only good if you HAVE to use it because it usually makes the shots more difficult.

Even practicing extreme english is ok in moderation, but I don't advise using it in a game unless there's NO OTHER CHOICE......if you want to win that is. ;)
Click to expand...

Why do you say it makes the game complicated? And, what effect do you think english would have when doing this drill?
 
Scott Lee said:
CurvedCue...There is no such thing as "stop english". There is such a thing as a center ball hit. When the CB is sliding (so either as a centerball stun stroke, or drawing the CB so that it loses the backspin just before contact with the OB), the CB will first stop when it collides directly into another ball (straight in). If the collision occurs at an angle, the CB will leave at 90 degrees if sliding/skidding, or 30 degrees if rolling. Only topspin and draw change tangent line. Right or left spin have no effect on how this happens. Sidespin only affects the CB when it hits the rail (unless you have top or bottom spin along with english). You are also very likely hitting higher on the CB than you think...most people do, due to an optical illusion. Hope this helps.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott,

Not debating, just asking. Bert Kinister says that a true center ball hit will make the cue ball roll forward to replace the object ball (like a stun-run-through, but only 1/2 a rotation). Do you know what I am talking/asking about, and if so, what are your or anyones thoughts???

Thanks,

Pete
 
Pete said:
Scott,

Not debating, just asking. Bert Kinister says that a true center ball hit will make the cue ball roll forward to replace the object ball (like a stun-run-through, but only 1/2 a rotation). Do you know what I am talking/asking about, and if so, what are your or anyones thoughts???

Thanks,

Pete
Click to expand...

That all depends on the distance and the speed of the shot. What makes the cb stop is that it is sliding at contact with the ob. To replace the ob, you have to time it such that the sliding stops and forward roll starts to take JUST before contact with the ob.
 
Pete said:
... a true center ball hit will make the cue ball roll forward to replace the object ball (like a stun-run-through, but only 1/2 a rotation). ...
Click to expand...
As Neil pointed out, there is much, much more to the shot than just what is stated above. If you want to understand the game, I think it is important to understand what else is involved.

Also, a very small technical nit: it is not half a rotation. Half a rotation does not carry the cue ball one ball ahead of its impact location.
 
Pete...Yes I know what you're talking about. IMO the true stop shot is far important to master than the replacement shot. A "true" centerball hit would result in the CB stopping adjacent/behind, and in line with. the OB. The head-on collision would not cause the CB to roll forward. Either the backspin ran out early, as Neil suggested, or 1/2 tip above center causes the replacement shot to occur. It's still all about a repeatable stroke to make that shot reliably, even at short distances. The same is true for stop shots.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Pete said:
Scott,

Not debating, just asking. Bert Kinister says that a true center ball hit will make the cue ball roll forward to replace the object ball (like a stun-run-through, but only 1/2 a rotation). Do you know what I am talking/asking about, and if so, what are your or anyones thoughts???

Thanks,

Pete
Click to expand...
 
The best way to hit that replacement shot is to hit a millimeter below center (very tiny offset) for long shots and center for anything medium and closer. The goal is to control that shot with speed only.

Now, there are an infinite # of ways to hit the shot, but that's the most repeatable. The reason for the minute offset on long shots (assuming 9' table) is because the shot speed is too high at true center to be feasible during actual play.

Speed and spin are the variables, but you have to eliminate the spin variable if your life depends on the shot.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
 
Well stated!

SpiderWebComm said:
The best way to hit that replacement shot is to hit a millimeter below center (very tiny offset) for long shots and center for anything medium and closer. The goal is to control that shot with speed only.

Now, there are an infinite # of ways to hit the shot, but that's the most repeatable. The reason for the minute offset on long shots (assuming 9' table) is because the shot speed is too high at true center to be feasible during actual play.

Speed and spin are the variables, but you have to eliminate the spin variable if your life depends on the shot.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Well stated!

I recommend a consistent speed and cueing slightly off center as you indicated.

Players don't "real eyes" that the Tip Target is a variable that is crucial to be aware of....if the Tip Target is center and you slightly miss that "micro target" you will get movement from the cue ball that is difficult to adjust for.

This is why using "center ball" may be ok for beginners, however at the higher levels it's best to favor a side so you have the required feedback after a miss....or a near miss.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I'm not sure how effective drills are in teaching someone because I find that they don't translate to real game situations in players' minds as well as people hope they do. I'm sure they do some good, but I don't think it's as much as many think.

Players can tell for themselves how well a drill is working for them. Have they ever practiced drills and then gotten into a game where it all falls apart again? Happens a lot.

However, I do think that a drill like the wagon wheel is a good test that players can perform to see how they're doing. I set it up for a player I was working with this weekend to see where he is at, and it gave me a good read on how he perceives things.

Then I was able to set up real game situations to help him improve on those areas.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Well stated!

I recommend a consistent speed and cueing slightly off center as you indicated.

Players don't "real eyes" that the Tip Target is a variable that is crucial to be aware of....if the Tip Target is center and you slightly miss that "micro target" you will get movement from the cue ball that is difficult to adjust for.

This is why using "center ball" may be ok for beginners, however at the higher levels it's best to favor a side so you have the required feedback after a miss....or a near miss.

'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

You might want to re-read his statement, and the OP's question.
 
Doing fundamental drills will "groove" your stroke. Without a repeatable, straight stroke, all else is nothing more than a crap shoot.

Doing pocketing drills will increase your confidence and ability in making balls. It will also show you which shots are low percentage for you.

Doing pocketing drills combined with positional drills will increase your confidence and abilities in pocketing and positional play.

Playing the ghost will enable you to take your individual skills and combine them. It will teach you pressure. It will teach you how shots tie in together. It will teach you the best routes to take to make things as simple as possible.

Doing drills will enable you to set up the same shot, and see exactly where you had a problem with it. Is it a shot that you feel you should make most of the time, but in reality you actually make less than 50% and didn't even realize it?

In any case, drills, or playing the ghost, will do you little good if your goal is just to perform the drill a set number of times. The drills are to reinforce your muscles and your subconscious on how exactly to perform it. So that under pressure, you will perform as you trained. During drills, you should be paying very close attention to details. ALL the details, so you can actually learn something and improve.

To those that think drills are a waste of time- good luck with that. Don't be surprised when in 10 years you find out you aren't much better than you are now.
 
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