Want to improve your pool game next weekend?

[Scott Lee]

Quite correct Neil. Lou has no clue about SPF, other than what the letters stand for. He doesn't know how it works, doesn't understand that EVERY poolplayer on Earth does some sort of SPF process (some are much more accurate than others)...and most certainly doesn't realize that he does it himself. I offered to bet him serious money that I could prove it, but so far he has declined. I suspect things will remain that way. That's how it is with closed-minded individuals. You don't know what you don't know! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Lou, and I mean no disrespect by this, but you are only showcasing the fact that you really have no idea what instructors really teach or why they teach what they do.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Quite correct Neil. Lou has no clue about SPF, other than what the letters stand for. He doesn't know how it works, doesn't understand that EVERY poolplayer on Earth does some sort of SPF process (some are much more accurate than others)...and most certainly doesn't realize that he does it himself. I offered to bet him serious money that I could prove it, but so far he has declined. I suspect things will remain that way. That's how it is with closed-minded individuals. You don't know what you don't know! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr Lee, I have to wonder if your description of Lou, isn't pretty much the way you (and most other instructors) feel about all players..good, mediocre, or bad!..Even though you admit, that every player is different, you have set yourself up, as the ultimate authority on what is right or wrong with any players stroke, and you seem to relish arguing that point with anyone who disagrees with you!

I firmly believe, that most top players got where they are, without the benefit of so-called 'master' instructors!..95% of them, learned almost entirely on their own..That is why there are so many diverse methods in their individual approaches to their stroke!..And that is why I feel instructors are primarily only a credible option, for 'newbies' trying to learn the game!..To continually insist that top players can, quote " learn a lot", from so called 'master instructor's' (who have never played anywhere near their level)..is sheer folly! :sorry:

 

[Neil]

Mr Lee, I have to wonder if your description of Lou, isn't pretty much the way you (and most other instructors) feel about all players..good, mediocre, or bad!..Even though you admit, that every player is different, you have set yourself up, as the ultimate authority on what is right or wrong with any players stroke, and you seem to relish arguing that point with anyone who disagrees with you!

I firmly believe, that most top players got where they are, without the benefit of so-called 'master' instructors!..95% of them, learned almost entirely on their own..That is why there are so many diverse methods in their individual approaches to their stroke!..And that is why I feel instructors are primarily only a credible option, for 'newbies' trying to learn the game!..To continually insist that top players can, quote " learn a lot", from so called 'master instructor's' (who have never played anywhere near their level)..is sheer folly! :sorry:

Dick, you know as well as anyone that nobody learned the game on their own. That was the big advantage of going on the road. You learned things from other players. Granted, you did'nt have a professional instructor available, but you still had others teaching you things here and there.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dick, you know as well as anyone that nobody learned the game on their own. That was the big advantage of going on the road. You learned things from other players. Granted, you did'nt have a professional instructor available, but you still had others teaching you things here and there.

Neil, you are missing my point a bit!..Obviously, everyone benefited from their early experiences, as with everything in life!..My main gist was, the world beaters that rose to the top in pool, did so primarily on their own, with their extreme dedication and love for the game!..That cannot be 'taught', they either had the desire, or they didn't!

PS..Getting your brains beat out a few times, at a game you love, can also be a great motivating factor to improve!

 

[lfigueroa]

Good points.

Maybe instead of focusing on differences, we should pay more attention to similarities.

What some things that all or most strong players do ?

Dey maka de balls in de pocket and dey maka whitey dance.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, and I mean no disrespect by this, but you are only showcasing the fact that you really have no idea what instructors really teach or why they teach what they do.

This seems to be the fall back position of many in the instructor set. The aiming set too, come to think of it :-o

You don't know it; you don't understand it; you have not opened up your heart and soul to it.

Lou Figueroa
alas

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, what about Efren Reyes, Fransisco Bustamante, Keith McCready, Rodolfo Luat ???

Yes, ps, the list of champions that deploy a wide variety of strokes is probably endless.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I suppose it depends on the game you're playing. You have to admit, however, that nobody rises to the top flight of snooker with a chicken wing and Bustamante backswing. American pool players don't get very far in Chinese 8-ball.

My experience is that there is that there are a few core fundamentals that you cannot skimp on if you want to reach the very apex of accuracy and close-in speed control, and to be honest, these really are snooker practices. However, for most American pool formats, especially rotation games, you can vary the style immensely and still be more than accurate enough even for 4.5" pockets and may even benefit from a less technical form as it can free up your stroke to put a bit more power into the ball if you're going to get fancy with multiple-rail force follow and very big draws.

If you want to see something interesting watch SVB playing Chinese 8-ball in 2014 (especially the one against Gareth Potts) and compare to 2016. SVB actually switched up his stroke for the 2014 tournament, he was not resting the tip on the table during his warmup strokes,he shortened his bridge and stroke considerably, he looked almost like he was copying Potts' stroke. And for someone who usually puts a big stroke on, I can certainly see the need to shorten up the stroke dramatically given the tightness of the pockets, heated slate, steel-framed cushions, and double-shaved cloth.. those tables play FAST. To my eye even though SVB got his ass beat badly, he was controlling the CB in tight spaces better than I'd ever seen him play, he looked like much more disciplined player. Halfway through day 2 of 2014 when he started losing that match, he went back to his usual longer windup stroke and although he got more comfortable with the shotmaking, he started blowing position really badly.

Those are different games.

On the flip side, the snooker guys don't get too far at pool without some serious retooling.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Cornerman]

I suppose it depends on the game you're playing. You have to admit, however, that nobody rises to the top flight of snooker with a chicken wing and Bustamante backswing. .

Not for nothing, but the great players before the Steve Davis era all had non-standard strokes, compared to what we see today. They still had plenty of 147s and world championships. Alex Higgins, Joe Davis, and going to English Billiards, the greatest of them all, Walter Lindrum, didn't have that standard stroke.

That being said, I think that the SPF method is going to help more players become competitive and better quicker, and have a baseline in an organized fashion. Hitting a million (HAMB) balls still ends up being the road to becoming a professional player (among drive, determination dedication and an overly zealous crazy pool noggin).

Freddie

 

[lfigueroa]

Quite correct Neil. Lou has no clue about SPF, other than what the letters stand for. He doesn't know how it works, doesn't understand that EVERY poolplayer on Earth does some sort of SPF process (some are much more accurate than others)...and most certainly doesn't realize that he does it himself. I offered to bet him serious money that I could prove it, but so far he has declined. I suspect things will remain that way. That's how it is with closed-minded individuals. You don't know what you don't know! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Of course you're right. What would I know about Sun Protection Factor (ALERT FOR THE HUMOR IMPAIRED: that was a joke)

A little more seriously, in my travels over the years I have had to opportunity to speak to a few folks who have taken your course. (Usually BB/league players.) I have also had the opportunity to listened to Mark Wilson give, oh, perhaps a dozen lessons, at a pool hall I used to hang out at and which he would use to give his lessons a couple tables away from mine.

Lastly, as has been beaten to death in previous discussions, transitioning from a back swing to a forward swing does not constitute "a pause." You SPF guys want to pull out the high speed camera to show some milli-second of transition where the cue doesn't move so you can jump up and down, squeal with delight, and say, "Lookie there -- he's pausing!!!" For most normal human beings who play pool that is not a true pause in the conventional sense of the word. It is bull-shee-toe.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Mr Lee, I have to wonder if your description of Lou, isn't pretty much the way you (and most other instructors) feel about all players..good, mediocre, or bad!..Even though you admit, that every player is different, you have set yourself up, as the ultimate authority on what is right or wrong with any players stroke, and you seem to relish arguing that point with anyone who disagrees with you!

I firmly believe, that most top players got where they are, without the benefit of so-called 'master' instructors!..95% of them, learned almost entirely on their own..That is why there are so many diverse methods in their individual approaches to their stroke!..And that is why I feel instructors are primarily only a credible option, for 'newbies' trying to learn the game!..To continually insist that top players can, quote " learn a lot", from so called 'master instructor's' (who have never played anywhere near their level)..is sheer folly! :sorry:

They wish to portray themselves as the high priests of pool knowledge -- guardians to the sacred temple of stroke knowledge.

Bow.

Knee.

Make offerings to them of goats and virgins.

Lou Figueroa
or $1300 will do

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Make offerings to them of goats and virgins.
...

I'm not so sure about the goat part. The last time I had goat it was jerk goat at a Jamaican restaurant. It was good but really hot and it was hard to notice the goat. Would it be possible to substitute lamb? With mint sauce. Thanks and best regards.

 

[Neil]

They wish to portray themselves as the high priests of pool knowledge -- guardians to the sacred temple of stroke knowledge.

Bow.

Knee.

Make offerings to them of goats and virgins.

Lou Figueroa
or $1300 will do

Tell you what, Lou. Since you think the instructors are full of it. And you have access to Mark Wilson, why don't you just tell him what you think of him ripping everybody off and then you each take a student, and see what happens with the student.

 

[Neil]

Of course you're right. What would I know about Sun Protection Factor (ALERT FOR THE HUMOR IMPAIRED: that was a joke)

A little more seriously, in my travels over the years I have had to opportunity to speak to a few folks who have taken your course. (Usually BB/league players.) I have also had the opportunity to listened to Mark Wilson give, oh, perhaps a dozen lessons, at a pool hall I used to hang out at and which he would use to give his lessons a couple tables away from mine.

Lastly, as has been beaten to death in previous discussions, transitioning from a back swing to a forward swing does not constitute "a pause." You SPF guys want to pull out the high speed camera to show some milli-second of transition where the cue doesn't move so you can jump up and down, squeal with delight, and say, "Lookie there -- he's pausing!!!" For most normal human beings who play pool that is not a true pause in the conventional sense of the word. It is bull-shee-toe.

Lou Figueroa

Again, you showcase you don't know what you are talking about with the pause. That even after it has been posted on this forum at least a dozen times, and despite you having sat in on Wilson's lessons numerous times. There are none so blind as those that will not see.

One would think that by now you would at least know that it is not the duration of the pause that matters, but the reason for the pause that matters. But, you never mention that, only the time.

 

[Slasher]

Those are different games.

On the flip side, the snooker guys don't get too far at pool without some serious retooling.

Lou Figueroa

Probably one of the few things I would disagree with you on. This is mostly mental rather than mechanical.
Very few have actually tried to take pool seriously, after all why would they want to be perpetually broke.
Drago won pro events with no change mechanically and he is not even competitive in todays snooker world, this scenario could never happen the other way round.

 

[Gorramjayne]

Those are different games.

On the flip side, the snooker guys don't get too far at pool without some serious retooling.

Lou Figueroa

Well I think a lot of this is incentive based, who's going to walk away from £1,500,000 snooker tournaments to fly to Wyoming to play for $6,000 added open barbox 9-ball?

Much the rest of it is just a matter of learning to play creatively doing all the things you can attempt in pool that a snooker table won't tolerate, playing for banks (and the way pool tables shorten up banks compared to snooker tables), cutting down a rail the full table length, jumping, etc. It's certainly not for lacking fundamentals, except for perhaps being able to close bridge and open up the stroke for a serious power draw. No, snooker players usually don't have the full set of experience to hang in rotation but in 8-ball they're great since they have incredibly precise tip placement and the touch to land the CB on a pinhead doing the least amount of work whereas a pool player will usually play the CB looser, going to the rail and back out. You can can always relax your form and open up your stroke to play good pool, it's hard to learn the precision that snooker players can achieve if you don't have those fundamentals ingrained in you. Look at Alex, few pool players bury shots cleaner and land position that pretty. It's not unrelated to his ability to put up a century break at will on the snooker table.

 

[Gorramjayne]

Again, you showcase you don't know what you are talking about with the pause. That even after it has been posted on this forum at least a dozen times, and despite you having sat in on Wilson's lessons numerous times. There are none so blind as those that will not see.

One would think that by now you would at least know that it is not the duration of the pause that matters, but the reason for the pause that matters. But, you never mention that, only the time.

Not everybody pauses. Mika Immonen does not pause at all on follow shots and has a micro-second pause hitting stun and draw. SVB's tip pauses at the end of his backswing but he's lowering then raising then dropping the butt keeping his arm moving the whole time without a true pause. Efren rarely pauses. Bustamante sure as shit doesn't pause. Still, these are not strokes I would teach as the total lack of pause is usually for people who lift significantly at the end of their backswing and learning to make the full arm elbow and shoulder work together consistently is not easy.

Intentionally pausing is not so much necessary as I think it's helpful to carefully bring your backswing to the same point every time and check that the tension in your elbow feels right before you unleash your stroke, so at the end of my (short) backswing I do carefully bring my forearm to a precise point where I transition forward. Some brief pause is more tyical for peole who stroke short and level with litle lift on the backswing. I believe a long intentional pause, however, is going to be wrong for just as many people as it is right, it's really going to depend on their body stability, their grip, and their fast-twitch vs slow twitch fibers. Snooker players definitely tend to have more of a pause then fire but for pool you may want a slightly smoother transition as my experience is to get the best CB action you have to stick a pool cue into the CB a little differently than you would in snooker so a little bit more deliberate acceleration into the CB is usually preferable for most shots where you have room to follow through. For a power draw where I am lifting at the end of my backswing more than usual to get added power, I intentionally refrain from pausing so I stay loose and don't jerk trying to get the cue up to speed, and I just have to make sure I don't reach so far I come off my stroking line.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Not everybody pauses. Mika Immonen does not pause at all on follow shots and has a micro-second pause hitting stun and draw. SVB's tip pauses at the end of his backswing but he's lowering then raising then dropping the butt keeping his arm moving the whole time without a true pause. Efren rarely pauses. Bustamante sure as shit doesn't pause. Still, these are not strokes I would teach as the total lack of pause is usually for people who lift significantly at the end of their backswing and learning to make the full arm elbow and shoulder work together consistently is not easy.

Intentionally pausing is not so much necessary as I think it's helpful to carefully bring your backswing to the same point every time and check that the tension in your elbow feels right before you unleash your stroke, so at the end of my (short) backswing I do carefully bring my forearm to a precise point where I transition forward. Some brief pause is more tyical for peole who stroke short and level with litle lift on the backswing. I believe a long intentional pause, however, is going to be wrong for just as many people as it is right, it's really going to depend on their body stability, their grip, and their fast-twitch vs slow twitch fibers. Snooker players definitely tend to have more of a pause then fire but for pool you may want a slightly smoother transition as my experience is to get the best CB action you have to stick a pool cue into the CB a little differently than you would in snooker so a little bit more deliberate acceleration into the CB is usually preferable for most shots where you have room to follow through. For a power draw where I am lifting at the end of my backswing more than usual to get added power, I intentionally refrain from pausing so I stay loose and don't jerk trying to get the cue up to speed, and I just have to make sure I don't reach so far I come off my stroking line.

First I'd like to adress the point you make about stability. If you are going to implement a prolonged pause, you need a perfect stance IMO. Any instability will make this technique a liability rather than an asset. THere is a good reason why people typically rush their strokes when their stance is uncomfortable. With a prolonged back pause, this problem will be amplified. Any instability, even very slight, will cause a bad stroke, in my experience.

The timing of the stroke will be off in the beginning. Personally I tried for a long time to extend my rear pause (on advice from snooker players), but all I did was mess up my stroke timing. I finally got to the point that I could play equally well with an extended pause, but I couldn't see any real benefit to doing it, especially since there was a lot of maintainance work required to keep the stroke nice. I have a more natural rear pause now.

I feel that the extended pause is better with a long, level stroke (which I have). If you have a pronounced dip in your forward stroke (rigid elbow and wrist), I'm not sure if there is any point to the extended rear pause. With a long, level stroke, you can with time develop a very smooth start to your forward swing, which to me is like 80% of what a good stroke is. I feel I have that now, and I'm not tearing down my stroke again for a possible but not guaranteed small improvement in that area. Especially since I remember how tough it was the last time I tried.

There is another benefit to an extended pause, and that is that it allows you to transition your eyes to the object ball and get a longer look at it, without much effort. If you have a tendency to hurry your stroke, this can be valuable. If you allready have a long forward pause, use microstrokes, and pull the cue back slowly, then I don't think the extended pause will give additional benefits in that area.

I had a discussion with a snooker coach about these points and we agreed pretty much. I think the value of teaching this to a young, up and coming player may be greater than older ones. Eye patterns and stroke rhytm are very hard to change once they become ingrained.

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm not so sure about the goat part. The last time I had goat it was jerk goat at a Jamaican restaurant. It was good but really hot and it was hard to notice the goat. Would it be possible to substitute lamb? With mint sauce. Thanks and best regards.

Love goat, though I agree that jerk goat can be too spicy.

Last time I had great goat, Gail and I were walking down the street from our hotel on Corfu and there was a family barbecuing a goat on a spit in front of their house, with some white plastic chairs and tables. I told Gail, "We gotta try this."

And it was fantastic.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Tell you what, Lou. Since you think the instructors are full of it. And you have access to Mark Wilson, why don't you just tell him what you think of him ripping everybody off and then you each take a student, and see what happens with the student.

Jeez, Neil. Why don't you throw in a $500 bet and go full Barton on me with this impossible to pull off bet, lol.

Lou Figueroa