....and they should get booths at Valley Forge to, right? Good luck with that my friend.
JV
Wanted/For Sale Section to Change in New Year
- Thread starter Jerry Forsyth
- Start date
....and they should get booths at Valley Forge to, right? Good luck with that my friend.
JV
Guys, this is a classifieds section.
It's really not any different than Craigslist or your local newspaper. I will freely admit that I am wrong if I see proof to the contrary but I do not believe that AZB has to be spending ANY money defending themselves against lawsuits arising out of this section.
That ground has been covered millions of times in our legal system. The PROVIDER of classifieds takes NO RESPONSIBILITY for the offers made in and through the classifieds. The are only the passive information board. They can exercise editorial discretion and decide to not allow certain types of advertisments but even if allowed they hold zero liability for the transactions that occur from those advertisements.
It is my opinon, admittedly based on no research at this point, that Mike and Jerry COULD deflect all legal challenges on their own without an attorney. This is a stupid shakedown attempt in my opinion and retaining an attorney to defend against something where there is such entrenched precedent that falls on the side of the publishers is not even needed. Any attorney who is threatening AZB is only attempting to pad their fees by taking on a case that they cannot win and they only hope to make AZ acquiesce to their client's demands and are possibly even trying to extort money from AZB's owners based on the threat of continued litigation.
And certainly getting a competent attorney to draft a general purpose letter that outlines the general defense against liability shouldn't cost very much at all. I would get that and simply send it to anyone who threatens a lawsuit and let them know they are on a fool's quest.
The bottom line is this. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN when you make deals through classified ads.
Kevin has outlined how he feels you can protect yourself. Wilson has advocated escrow which is one way to be more protected. But at the end of the day you are on your own and AZB cannot protect you. If you send your money or cue to someone then your deal is between YOU and THEM.
The more responsibility you ask AZ to take the more liability you ask them to assume. This puts them MORE at risk of being sued because they are stepping OUTSIDE their role of simple provider of space for classified ads.
Now, I do certainly feel that AZ can do more editorially to weed out the scammers and vet the dealers and essentially keep the section as clean as possible. But this has to be a COMMUNITY driven thing. Just like Craigslist. On CL the community is responsible for reporting ads that are fraudulent or otherwise problematic. When that happens the editors at CL will look at it and decide what to do.
SO, again, my suggestion is that this secton should have three moderators chosen from the long-time users who have established themselves and who agree to fairly apply the rules and keep the section clean and flowing.
The section should be divided into private and commercial listings and AZB should CHARGE something for commercial listing just like Craigslist charges for certain types of listings and the local paper charges for listings.
Keep it simple. Commercial vendors should provide their complete contact information including a driver's license and or business license. This information is kept on file and given to anyone with a proven transaction who requests it. This is not perfect and of course the information can be faked BUT it will go a long way towards stopping scammers as most won't go through the hassle to create a fake identity to that level just to sell on here.
If people can bet thousands every week with each other through the Good Action List then we can do the same here. You cannot legislate good behavior but you can make it harder for the people who intend on scamming to operate by being diligent as a community.
And regarding lawsuits we make it perfectly clear to everyone that such lawsuits against AZB are FRIVOLOUS and that as a community we will file suit for harassment against ANYONE who tries to use the threat of a lawsuit to impinge this marketplace.
That's what I think needs to be done.
It's really not any different than Craigslist or your local newspaper. I will freely admit that I am wrong if I see proof to the contrary but I do not believe that AZB has to be spending ANY money defending themselves against lawsuits arising out of this section.
That ground has been covered millions of times in our legal system. The PROVIDER of classifieds takes NO RESPONSIBILITY for the offers made in and through the classifieds. The are only the passive information board. They can exercise editorial discretion and decide to not allow certain types of advertisments but even if allowed they hold zero liability for the transactions that occur from those advertisements.
It is my opinon, admittedly based on no research at this point, that Mike and Jerry COULD deflect all legal challenges on their own without an attorney. This is a stupid shakedown attempt in my opinion and retaining an attorney to defend against something where there is such entrenched precedent that falls on the side of the publishers is not even needed. Any attorney who is threatening AZB is only attempting to pad their fees by taking on a case that they cannot win and they only hope to make AZ acquiesce to their client's demands and are possibly even trying to extort money from AZB's owners based on the threat of continued litigation.
And certainly getting a competent attorney to draft a general purpose letter that outlines the general defense against liability shouldn't cost very much at all. I would get that and simply send it to anyone who threatens a lawsuit and let them know they are on a fool's quest.
The bottom line is this. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN when you make deals through classified ads.
Kevin has outlined how he feels you can protect yourself. Wilson has advocated escrow which is one way to be more protected. But at the end of the day you are on your own and AZB cannot protect you. If you send your money or cue to someone then your deal is between YOU and THEM.
The more responsibility you ask AZ to take the more liability you ask them to assume. This puts them MORE at risk of being sued because they are stepping OUTSIDE their role of simple provider of space for classified ads.
Now, I do certainly feel that AZ can do more editorially to weed out the scammers and vet the dealers and essentially keep the section as clean as possible. But this has to be a COMMUNITY driven thing. Just like Craigslist. On CL the community is responsible for reporting ads that are fraudulent or otherwise problematic. When that happens the editors at CL will look at it and decide what to do.
SO, again, my suggestion is that this secton should have three moderators chosen from the long-time users who have established themselves and who agree to fairly apply the rules and keep the section clean and flowing.
The section should be divided into private and commercial listings and AZB should CHARGE something for commercial listing just like Craigslist charges for certain types of listings and the local paper charges for listings.
Keep it simple. Commercial vendors should provide their complete contact information including a driver's license and or business license. This information is kept on file and given to anyone with a proven transaction who requests it. This is not perfect and of course the information can be faked BUT it will go a long way towards stopping scammers as most won't go through the hassle to create a fake identity to that level just to sell on here.
If people can bet thousands every week with each other through the Good Action List then we can do the same here. You cannot legislate good behavior but you can make it harder for the people who intend on scamming to operate by being diligent as a community.
And regarding lawsuits we make it perfectly clear to everyone that such lawsuits against AZB are FRIVOLOUS and that as a community we will file suit for harassment against ANYONE who tries to use the threat of a lawsuit to impinge this marketplace.
That's what I think needs to be done.
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This is disappointing to hear, I really enjoyed having the option to possibly obtain new cues and billiard supplies for a fraction of the typical retail price ,and even in many instances, a fraction of the sale price, when compared to p/dawg ,0z/one, and s/berts sites, to name a few..
However,when it becomes a legal matter, precaution must be adhered to ,and I do believe the Mods. of this site will alleviate this issue.........
However,when it becomes a legal matter, precaution must be adhered to ,and I do believe the Mods. of this site will alleviate this issue.........
Nice, this will go a long way towards closing the gap between those who pay for banner ads and those who sell commercially through the WFS section.
I personally don't see a lot of the name brand stuff that is sold much below the advertised prices on the established sites. Sure once in a while someone has a little fire sale but mostly it's pretty much the same pricing.
About the only time I see anyone consistently offering name brands for way less than the street price it's generally items of dubious origin that are likely counterfeits.
^^Im not looking to bridge the gap,, thats for the mods to handle ..
There are many prices below retail ,as well as sale here on AzB,, maybe not alot less, but cheaper is better ,provided the quality is still present ..
Yes there's frauds among the deals, but its up to you to use your own judgement.....
There are many prices below retail ,as well as sale here on AzB,, maybe not alot less, but cheaper is better ,provided the quality is still present ..
Yes there's frauds among the deals, but its up to you to use your own judgement.....
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^^Im not looking to bridge the gap,, thats for the mods to handle ..
There are many prices below retail ,as well as sale here on AzB,, maybe not alot less, but cheaper is better ,provided the quality is still present ..
Yes there's frauds among the deals, but its up to you to use your own judgement.....
Well when you play into ONE of the reasons for abolishing commercial sales by directly naming the advertisers and saying you LIKE being able to buy their wares cheaper from other people then one way to take care of that for you is to abolish commercial sales.
My point is that there are not THAT many items below the "street" price that Ozone and others are selling at. It's hit and miss and not like everything they offer is on sale all the time.
And as far as counterfeit stuff you can't always use your own judgement because that is the nature of counterfeit stuff, they are using the NAME brand and if you don't know who they are then you can assume that the stuff is legit and most people do if they see a "good deal".
Jb cases>>>>i like his comments & thoughts
I think the comments expressed by JB Cases about the pending changes to the forum are very salient and highlight some very pertinent points to ponder....but the pondering is all on the part of AZ's operators. Perhaps his observations will provide them with insight on how to better operate the forum.
I think the comments expressed by JB Cases about the pending changes to the forum are very salient and highlight some very pertinent points to ponder....but the pondering is all on the part of AZ's operators. Perhaps his observations will provide them with insight on how to better operate the forum.
Are things remaining the same til the first of the year? that is what I read I thought. I was wondering, because I had a sales add just disappear. At this point, I have no idea what the rules are.
If Your Ad Was In Conflict With The New Requirements
I believe that the forum is just enforcing some of its old rules which contained much of what the new rules are and so if you ad conflicted in any way, it might have been yanked.
But if you think about it, there's not much sense whatsoever for the Forum to allow new postings at this time that do not meet the new rules. These postings would have to be deleted in two weeks anyway so why not just nip the bud early and cut down on the cleanup.
Sorry to learn about your ad but if it didn't meet the Forum's new requirments, then I'm pleased to hear that the new rules are already being enforced now. However, if there was nothing wrong with your ad, then you do have a right to ask why?
The changes to the Forum are long overdue and we need to keep the garbage listings off the wanted to buy/sell section.
I believe that the forum is just enforcing some of its old rules which contained much of what the new rules are and so if you ad conflicted in any way, it might have been yanked.
But if you think about it, there's not much sense whatsoever for the Forum to allow new postings at this time that do not meet the new rules. These postings would have to be deleted in two weeks anyway so why not just nip the bud early and cut down on the cleanup.
Sorry to learn about your ad but if it didn't meet the Forum's new requirments, then I'm pleased to hear that the new rules are already being enforced now. However, if there was nothing wrong with your ad, then you do have a right to ask why?
The changes to the Forum are long overdue and we need to keep the garbage listings off the wanted to buy/sell section.
I can't help but wonder how many of your Chinese slave-labor cases are actually sold in China. Frankly...we won't miss dealers like you!
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After reading 20 pages of complaints about the new rules, I can only say...this is a privately owned website. If you don't like the rules...move on! I personally love the new rules! I have watched too often someone selling a $200-$500 cue bumped off the 1st page by a dozen deaalers. Kudos to the mods! It will be nice to see this forum return the way it was!
aren't you the same guy who was touting his Chinese made break cue as the best you ever used?
yeah, that was you. hypocrital much.
this year I sold 40 custom cases in china, including one for 2500. on top of that I have sold more than 130 of the basic nylon cases. and we are currently in the middle of a 1500 case order of mid range fashion cases for fury for the Chinese market. two weeks ago I was at a fashion show for these cases in a pool room that is nicer than any you have ever been in.
oh and we are just finishing up 23 cases in pan xiao ting's new line, so make that 63 custom cases in china for 2011.
in contrast on azb I sold less than 20 through the wfs section ads. in total I probably sold 30 cases through azb in 2011. and along with all the wonderful and genuine people I have met and deal with I have to put up with wastes of air nit hypocrites such as you. but it's worth it to me because the community of good people here far outweighs the idiots, even if it feels otherwise because the idiots are such a pain when they open their mouths to show their ass.
trust me if this section becomes a wasteland with only nits like you posting then good luck selling your junk to the buyers that are left. what you really want is to get rid of the people who actually have knowledge of the industry and who can expose your bs. you would love to have a place where you can lie to the noobs and no one knows enough to call you on it.
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there aren't any new rules yet. you obviously did not read the thread. no date was set, no new rules are in place and mike said he and Jerry are going to discuss it.
this is a discussion forum. if you don't like it that the community discusses the forum and the rules then maybe you should be the one moving on.
the fact is that it is not the ownership or the existence that makes this forum work. it is the community that is here. that community can move on at any time and leave a ghost town behind. that's already happened at other places where the owner made the environment unfriendly to the members. on the Internet the next place is a click away.
so perhaps you should think a bit before you speak. your contributions to this forum are next to worthless while many others have put a lot of effort into making this an attractive place to be. those people are offering constructive suggestions to make it better.
you?
yeah, not at all.
P.S. Randy, it would generally be a good idea to check your own past listings before jumping on others.
1. You have sold plenty of "slave-labor" (your ignorant description) goods that were made in China.
2. You have made several posts where you just advertised the items you were selling on Ebay.
3. You bump constantly without even dropping the price or adding new information about the product.
4. When it suits you to make a sale, then "slave labor" goods are the best according to your past descriptions.
Anyone who cares to check this information can view all the threads you started.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=62087&starteronly=1
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Bad bad slave labor wicked white overlord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dave sutton
Banned
Wow. This may be the dumbest post I have ever read. No a personal attack. I don know you.
With that being said do you have any clue how many items you use in everyday life that was or has parts imported from overseas. China Indonesia where ever.
How does that thought ever go thru you head?!?!? I wish for one month someone had the power to take away every imported item in you life to watch you wonder the streets lost. You would not know what to do with yourself.
Again not a personal attack on you. Anyone making the statement you made would have received the same response.
Can't wait to hear your response typed on your imported computer of iPhone.
We are in a global economy kinda world now. Get used to it.
Yeah I know. But if it's any comfort my whip is a genuine one made in USA by reservation Indians using imported Mexican leather from retired bullfighting bulls.
You should start making genuine replica Indian whips and really piss everybody off....:smile-us-down:
JB Custom Whips & Cases
dave sutton
Banned
Add me to that list please.
I'm new to AZBilliards, so I realize my opinion doesn't count as much as the long time members, but I'm going to chime in anyway. I have made a couple purchases based on posts I've read here at AZB (cue repair work and some training CDs). I plan to have a cue built at some point as well, and to purchase a new case.
I understand the site owner's desire to make money by limiting some of the selling that goes on here to actual advertisers on the site. I can't blame them. However, as a user I also find value in the large selection of items that are For Sale at wholesale prices -- ranging from cases, to instructional material, to new cues, to collectible cues, to custom built cues made to order, to used cues and cases, and more. I really like this site, and many of the people selling pool related items are also the same people participating in many of the other forums as well. I particularly enjoy reading the sometimes opinionated, but always well reasoned, posts of the guy from JB Cases -- and not just because the lady holding the little girl in his avatar is easy to look at.
I don't know if the decision to ban all sellers is in stone yet, but I hope a compromise can be found. The site already allows you to become a "Club Member". Instead of banning the selling I'd prefer to see the "Club Members", or maybe a new "Biz Member", who could pay a nominal fee to post new items in a "For Sale by Club Members" section (or something along those lines). Maybe this fee could be based on a number of sales. Maybe cue makers could have the fee waived. Maybe something better than just banning all sales can be found.
I understand the site owner's desire to make money by limiting some of the selling that goes on here to actual advertisers on the site. I can't blame them. However, as a user I also find value in the large selection of items that are For Sale at wholesale prices -- ranging from cases, to instructional material, to new cues, to collectible cues, to custom built cues made to order, to used cues and cases, and more. I really like this site, and many of the people selling pool related items are also the same people participating in many of the other forums as well. I particularly enjoy reading the sometimes opinionated, but always well reasoned, posts of the guy from JB Cases -- and not just because the lady holding the little girl in his avatar is easy to look at.
I don't know if the decision to ban all sellers is in stone yet, but I hope a compromise can be found. The site already allows you to become a "Club Member". Instead of banning the selling I'd prefer to see the "Club Members", or maybe a new "Biz Member", who could pay a nominal fee to post new items in a "For Sale by Club Members" section (or something along those lines). Maybe this fee could be based on a number of sales. Maybe cue makers could have the fee waived. Maybe something better than just banning all sales can be found.