Was I wrong for not telling my opponent he's shooting the wrong ball?!?!

to sum it up for; JoeyA... who expressed it already...

JoeyA said:
You're right! Telling him is the "smart" thing to do as well as the gentlemanly thing to do. You've made some very astute points worth noting that pertain to winning in the long run and extending the wallet stripping.

The thread maker was interested in knowing if the members of this forum thought he was "wrong".

Telling him may have been the smart and the gentlemanly thing to do but the thread maker was playing by rules and he broke no rules.

In professional sports and amateur sports, ALL OVER THE WORLD, EVERY DAY you see players breaking rules and squawKing when they get caught as if they didn't know what they were doing in the first place.

Personally, I think players should be required to call fouls on themselves when a referee is not present and should conduct themselves as gentlemen at all times and yes, you should be required to tell your opponent that he or she is preparing to shoot the wrong ball.

This has got me thinking, perhaps when you start gambling, you should make this part of the game's rules. When you attempt to put these rules into the makeup of the game, the dirt-bags will give you the WTF look and grudgingly agree or start with some BS reason why those rules shouldn't be implemented. :D

I did like the honesty and candor in which one poster wrote, that on occasion he might conveniently look away to avoid seeing what ball the shooter is going to shoot, thereby avoiding the responsibility of telling the shooter what ball to shoot. I mean really, a guy is "wrong" for not telling a person that they are getting ready to shoot the wrong ball. Like another said, if that, then you may as well start telling them that they are making a mistake using the wrong English.

Rules are there for a reason and this thread has given me pause about why this isn't a rule. It makes sense not to put the burden of correcting your opponent's mistake on the other player's back so the thread maker can't be wrong.

That still doesn't mean that you can't do the gentlemanly thing and tell them. It just means that you aren't wrong for not telling them.

This is one of the few threads that I am ever going to grade. :) Where's that Like button?
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to me pool is a gentleman's game, win or lose, a gentleman's game. no matter, $5, of $50, or $500 or $5,000

i could not agree more with anything said like JoeyA said in BLUE above

you don't need to call your shot to me, but if you made the wrong pocket, then just tell me 'your shot'

i have only been cheated once in pool so in my experience i always trust my opponent and will always play with that in mind

all the best,
smokey
 
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Ive played many times were someone has shot the wrong ball. Every time I see it I keep my mouth shut and take ball in hand. Ive shot the wrong ball out of order once and I only had myself to blame. Pay atention thats it. Its not his fault that the dude dint look the table over and shot the wrong ball like an idoit. Also if I was playing and someone else said hey your shooting the wrong ball I would be pissed. I dont care if its there backer once its your turn to shoot step up be a man and do it on your own. Just my point of view on the matter.

I just dont understand why its my obligation to tell you your shooting the wrong shot. Eorrs are part of every sport and he made and eorr.
 
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smokey said:
to me pool is a gentleman's game, win or lose, a gentleman's game. no matter, $5, of $50, or $500 or $5,000

i could not agree more with anything said like JoeyA said in BLUE above

you don't need to call your shot to me, but if you made the wrong pocket, then just tell me 'your shot'

i have only been cheated once in pool so in my experience i always trust my opponent and will always play with that in mind

all the best,
smokey
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smokey, I have never considered pool a "gentleman's game". It would be nice if it were so, but I have not found that to be the case. Here are MY reasons: You say you "have only been cheated once in pool". Either you do not play much pool (which I doubt), you keep to certain friends/acquaintances, or you have just been damn lucky. Myself (or one of the teams I have played on) OTOH, have been victim/attempted victims of cheaters on many occasions, too numerous to count. It has not been my experience that poolplayers have the greatest sportsmanship capabilities in comparison to many other sports endeavors I have been associated with over the years. I have been cheated more times in ONE MATCH than you claim to have EVER been. That said, I'm not talking about ALL poolplayers as I have also come to know and play against some of the finest people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I have always called any of my own fouls on myself. I have (much to a few of them's chagrin) called fouls on my teammates whenever I didn't think they were going to speak up and say something. I have ALWAYS told my opponent (or a teammate's opponent) that they were about to shoot at a wrong ball. I play the game the right way, at least IMO I do.

As I explained in a previous post, the reason it wouldn't make sense to REQUIRE a person to tell his/her opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball is because it is too easy to skirt this rule (I believe I used the word "loophole" in my previous post). Two reasons: 1.) The sitting player could claim that they couldn't tell which ball the shooter was aiming at/or was simply distracted at the time the shot was attempted, and 2.) What if several balls were uptable (say the 5,6, and 8-ball), were near each other, and the lowest ball on the table was the 5-ball. If the cueball is downtable and the shooter is taking aim, can you really tell which ball he is aiming at if your angle of view is not optimum to see the shot line? He may be aiming at the 6-ball but you can't really tell because of the proximity of the 5 and 6-balls. Now, in this scenario, if you stop the player from shooting to try and "help" them and they WERE NOT in all actuality shooting at the wrong ball, you have not only sharked this player, but may be slightly guilty of poor sportsmanship, even if it was accidental. So, I don't always think it is the right thing to do to just speak up to warn the opponent they may be shooting the wrong ball. If it is purely obvious, then yes! But some thought may have to be put into your choice of when to/not to warn your opponent.

I'm not trying to argue with this as I believe that you and JoeyA are damn good people, it's just that I don't think a "requirement" would work. In all actuality, I believe it would cause more problems.

Maniac (just trying to use common sense here)
 
I should have quoted the person I am replying to but I am too lazy to hit the back button :D

It IS a requirement of the shooting player to call a foul on himself. I have never read rules which stated otherwise. That is what makes our game a gentlemen's game IMO. No referee needed in most cases...
 
I don't tell my best friend if he's shooting at the wrong ball and I'm going to tell some stranger? and feel guilty about it on top of it all? No way, that's why the games got rules, follow em'.
 
A question to clarify a point that is being debated here...

*if* a referee is present in a match would they inform a player they are shooting at the wrong ball before they shoot? Or just inform them they fouled afterwards? The referees I have dealt with in tournaments refuse to give you advice on a shot (I've asked if it was possible to get a clean hit and they informed me they can't tell me that ahead of time - just judge the shot as played.)

If the answer is they wouldn't, and you are to 'act as if a referee is present at all times' (which I agree with), then not telling them is actually following that guideline....
 
JasBy said:
A question to clarify a point that is being debated here...

*if* a referee is present in a match would they inform a player they are shooting at the wrong ball before they shoot? Or just inform them they fouled afterwards? The referees I have dealt with in tournaments refuse to give you advice on a shot (I've asked if it was possible to get a clean hit and they informed me they can't tell me that ahead of time - just judge the shot as played.)

If the answer is they wouldn't, and you are to 'act as if a referee is present at all times' (which I agree with), then not telling them is actually following that guideline....
Click to expand...

That is an excellent point. If a referee is present. However, if there is not a referee present then the shooter has the role of referee not the sitting player.

Again...I am not assuming I am correct here. That is how I have seen it done and I am sharing my opinion. :)
 
Maniac said:
I'm not trying to argue with this as I believe that you and JoeyA are damn good people, it's just that I don't think a "requirement" would work. In all actuality, I believe it would cause more problems.

Maniac (just trying to use common sense here)
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Making it a requirement would be unworkable; it would essentially legalize sharking and cheating. If players are required to inform their opponent then even "gentlemen" will have to start doing so if there is even the slightest chance their opponent is shooting at the wrong ball (like if the 4 and 5 are next to each other) in order to protect their right to BIH on the foul. And sharkers would have a field day with the rule.

Plus, the rule now gives the cheater an opportunity. You leave him hooked, kicking at the 4 ball. He kicks, missing the 4 and hitting the 6 and then tells you he didn't see the 4 and was trying to hit the 6. No foul because you didn't inform him.

Wouldn't work. You essentially would be required to inform your opponent of which ball to shoot on every shot.
 
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an obvious conflict

As my earlier post indicated, there is an obvious conflict in pool. It is generally accepted that it is the opponent's job to see and call fouls. However most of us also believe that it is the opponent's duty to have their butt in their chair and sit still when the other player is shooting. It isn't possible to both sit in your chair and be an effective de facto referee. I usually make my opponents choose one or the other.

When I see my opponent not call a blatant foul on themselves or deny an obvious foul when I call it I will start playing shape so they often have a great view of butt from the chair, mine and the cues. I make sure there is no chance of seeing the shot from the chair. As soon as I shoot I jerk my head around to look at them. Amazing how often somebody will scream "FOUL!"

"What did I do?"

Then they start searching for something I might have done or claiming something ridiculous. They don't have a leg to stand on because A. I didn't foul, and B. they couldn't see anything about the shot anyway. By the time I do that to somebody two or three times they are far more focused on me cheating them than they are on their game and I don't think I've ever lost a set to someone like that.

It isn't a matter of rules or even ethics to call your own fouls. It may come down to a matter of common sense though. Some clown like me can make somebody's life a living hell in a match without ever doing anything worse than looking around to see if the other player was watching me shoot.

I much prefer a contest without the gamesmanship but unlike Smokey I have been cheated dozens of times. I try to make a point of meeting my opponent halfway or a bit beyond good or bad so when moves start I can make a few of my own and when outright cheating starts, been there and done that too. Most people can be standing there watching me cheat and still not notice it.

I watched an old dog with a lifetime of road gambling experience playing in a bar table tournament. The ball he was shooting at in a bar table nine ball tournament was in a tight group where he was moving three or four balls around. He casually shot a ball into the pocket that was several inches away from the object ball caroming into the object ball with a very obvious second hit. He smoothly continued his run shooting several balls out of order before dropping back to the ball he had skipped! I happened to be a few feet away when this happened and I was curious how he would react when he got around to shooting the ball he had skipped. He never turned a hair leading me to believe that he knew what he had done and had done it with full intent to begin with. Not the kind of guy I want to play a gentleman's game with! Not the kind of guy I even want to play with these days. When I played for the cash I couldn't be picky who I played. Playing for recreation I can.

Hu
 
JasBy said:
A question to clarify a point that is being debated here...

*if* a referee is present in a match would they inform a player they are shooting at the wrong ball before they shoot? Or just inform them they fouled afterwards? The referees I have dealt with in tournaments refuse to give you advice on a shot (I've asked if it was possible to get a clean hit and they informed me they can't tell me that ahead of time - just judge the shot as played.)

If the answer is they wouldn't, and you are to 'act as if a referee is present at all times' (which I agree with), then not telling them is actually following that guideline....
Click to expand...
Very good point,I think it was a Corey Deuel Match i was watching where the ref informed the player before he shot that he was shooting the wrong ball.
 
ignomirello said:
Sportsmanship & Integrity
After reading this thread It makes me wonder.
In the future we might need a referee at each table.

This sport is going the wrong way if you need a referee at every table.
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In the big events I think its a great idea.Tennis has separate refs on every court during events so in pool it should help.The only ref I wouldn't want is the lady who called a foul on Team Italy in the World Cup of Pool because she claimed one of his arm hairs touched one of the balls.It was a hometown call for the phillipines and even the commentators thought the call was fishy to say the least.
 
If I am practicing on my home table, by myself, and I sink a ball out of order, who is to blame ?

Personal responsibility - try it sometime... Quit blaming others for your bad choices... Consequences happen...
 
scsuxci said:
Very good point,I think it was a Corey Deuel Match i was watching where the ref informed the player before he shot that he was shooting the wrong ball.
Click to expand...

Well, if he did that he should be fired of course. How can you coach a guy into not fouling when people's livelihoods are at stake? The obvious protocol, no matter what has actually happened (this is pool remember) is that the ref is NOT supposed to inform a player they are about to foul. This is reffing 101 stuff, i mean cmon.
 
Mickey Qualls said:
If I am practicing on my home table, by myself, and I sink a ball out of order, who is to blame ?

Personal responsibility - try it sometime... Quit blaming others for your bad choices... Consequences happen...
Click to expand...

Well said.

I stopped practicing alone...shot the wrong ball once...and not ONE of
my imaginary friends would tell me.:angry:

pt..<..needs a new shrink
 
Honorable competitors ASK FOR AND GIVE NO QUARTER

pt109 said:
This has been done before...and I've tried to stay out of it.
But I feel obliged to state my opinion.

Honorable competitors ASK FOR AND GIVE NO QUARTER.

I call my own fouls even where 'you snooze you lose' is in effect.
I refuse to let myself away with 'no rail', 'touching whitey', or 'touching
a moving ball'.
..and I won't let my opponent cheat himself on the score or ball count.

But honorable people are still responsible for their own decisions.
I don't WANT my opponent telling me I'm shooting the wrong ball.

If I expect my opponent to help me beat him...........
..where is the honor in that?

This is my opinion and I bear full responsibility for it

regards
pt
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When I play serious competitive pool - a set just for fun, a tournament, a league match, or gambling I want to win by outplaying my opponent.

To me this means playing with sportsmanship and by the rules as PT109 put so well while making less mistakes. It's not often that a player freezes the cue ball to the rail on the lag and breaks and run the set out for the win. Winning pool is about making less mistakes than your opponent whether of judgement or execution.

If an opponent shoots lights out but can't make a ball on the break I don't feel guilty about winning. If they choke on a shot to win the match that's how it goes. If I get a great roll in a critical spot well - they should have kept me off the table. I've been on the other side of all those situations too and only blame myself for coming up short.

To me the dividing line is any mistake made by the shooter while shooting are part of the game. Anything else my sense of sportmanship requires that I address. I don't want to take advantage if the shooter was bumped while cueing. The same with forgetting to score a game. The same with a foul of mine - I'm going to call it whether or not anyone noticed.

Unless it's a game where no one cares who wins or looses like when I'm trying to help someone learn and improve I see my duty as an opponent to take advantage of a bad choice of route, a miss, a foul, a miscue, or shooting at the wrong ball.
 
hey Maniac...

Maniac said:
smokey, I have never considered pool a "gentleman's game". It would be nice if it were so, but I have not found that to be the case. Here are MY reasons: You say you "have only been cheated once in pool". Either you do not play much pool (which I doubt), you keep to certain friends/acquaintances, or you have just been damn lucky. Myself (or one of the teams I have played on) OTOH, have been victim/attempted victims of cheaters on many occasions, too numerous to count. It has not been my experience that poolplayers have the greatest sportsmanship capabilities in comparison to many other sports endeavors I have been associated with over the years. I have been cheated more times in ONE MATCH than you claim to have EVER been. That said, I'm not talking about ALL poolplayers as I have also come to know and play against some of the finest people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I have always called any of my own fouls on myself. I have (much to a few of them's chagrin) called fouls on my teammates whenever I didn't think they were going to speak up and say something. I have ALWAYS told my opponent (or a teammate's opponent) that they were about to shoot at a wrong ball. I play the game the right way, at least IMO I do.

As I explained in a previous post, the reason it wouldn't make sense to REQUIRE a person to tell his/her opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball is because it is too easy to skirt this rule (I believe I used the word "loophole" in my previous post). Two reasons: 1.) The sitting player could claim that they couldn't tell which ball the shooter was aiming at/or was simply distracted at the time the shot was attempted, and 2.) What if several balls were uptable (say the 5,6, and 8-ball), were near each other, and the lowest ball on the table was the 5-ball. If the cueball is downtable and the shooter is taking aim, can you really tell which ball he is aiming at if your angle of view is not optimum to see the shot line? He may be aiming at the 6-ball but you can't really tell because of the proximity of the 5 and 6-balls. Now, in this scenario, if you stop the player from shooting to try and "help" them and they WERE NOT in all actuality shooting at the wrong ball, you have not only sharked this player, but may be slightly guilty of poor sportsmanship, even if it was accidental. So, I don't always think it is the right thing to do to just speak up to warn the opponent they may be shooting the wrong ball. If it is purely obvious, then yes! But some thought may have to be put into your choice of when to/not to warn your opponent.

I'm not trying to argue with this as I believe that you and JoeyA are damn good people, it's just that I don't think a "requirement" would work. In all actuality, I believe it would cause more problems.

Maniac (just trying to use common sense here)
Click to expand...

first i think you have a lot more experience than me. but that being said, i have a confession to make:

most of my opponents don't have to cheat to beat me. in other words - i suck...

and i can agree with all you said. actually, i probably have been cheated more that i realize, but not by much. my experience is mostly in league and you get to know everybody and yes, while it is challenging and we are very focused we are also respectful of one another, enjoy the game and enjoy the evenings together. i think it is special for all of us, with minor exception.

besides, for me i want to win because i won - fair and square.

just my take on pool. i know it does not agree with some others. but i love to play and enjoy the game and the time with others who feel the same.

to the point, if you are about to shoot the wrong ball, it is probably an easier ball than others, but not always. what if you took the harder ball to pocket? were you cheating me?

in the end, i find it much simpler to just play your game as best as you can, and always be a fair/honest opponent.

for most of 'us' we are not professional, probably coming from a hard day's work, so if i know you are about to shoot the wrong ball, i have no problem with letting you know...

all the best,
smokey
 
Maniac said:
smokey, I have never considered pool a "gentleman's game". It would be nice if it were so, but I have not found that to be the case. Here are MY reasons: You say you "have only been cheated once in pool". Either you do not play much pool (which I doubt), you keep to certain friends/acquaintances, or you have just been damn lucky. Myself (or one of the teams I have played on) OTOH, have been victim/attempted victims of cheaters on many occasions, too numerous to count. It has not been my experience that poolplayers have the greatest sportsmanship capabilities in comparison to many other sports endeavors I have been associated with over the years. I have been cheated more times in ONE MATCH than you claim to have EVER been. That said, I'm not talking about ALL poolplayers as I have also come to know and play against some of the finest people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I have always called any of my own fouls on myself. I have (much to a few of them's chagrin) called fouls on my teammates whenever I didn't think they were going to speak up and say something. I have ALWAYS told my opponent (or a teammate's opponent) that they were about to shoot at a wrong ball. I play the game the right way, at least IMO I do.

As I explained in a previous post, the reason it wouldn't make sense to REQUIRE a person to tell his/her opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball is because it is too easy to skirt this rule (I believe I used the word "loophole" in my previous post). Two reasons: 1.) The sitting player could claim that they couldn't tell which ball the shooter was aiming at/or was simply distracted at the time the shot was attempted, and 2.) What if several balls were uptable (say the 5,6, and 8-ball), were near each other, and the lowest ball on the table was the 5-ball. If the cueball is downtable and the shooter is taking aim, can you really tell which ball he is aiming at if your angle of view is not optimum to see the shot line? He may be aiming at the 6-ball but you can't really tell because of the proximity of the 5 and 6-balls. Now, in this scenario, if you stop the player from shooting to try and "help" them and they WERE NOT in all actuality shooting at the wrong ball, you have not only sharked this player, but may be slightly guilty of poor sportsmanship, even if it was accidental. So, I don't always think it is the right thing to do to just speak up to warn the opponent they may be shooting the wrong ball. If it is purely obvious, then yes! But some thought may have to be put into your choice of when to/not to warn your opponent.

I'm not trying to argue with this as I believe that you and JoeyA are damn good people, it's just that I don't think a "requirement" would work. In all actuality, I believe it would cause more problems.

Maniac (just trying to use common sense here)
Click to expand...

You make too much common sense for Smokey and I. At least you agree that if it is obvious that they are shooting the wrong ball, their opponent should speak up. But where do you draw the line? Dirt bags can interrupt your play and say that they thought when you walked around the table and viewed the shot from a different angle, that you were getting prepared to shoot the wrong ball. It never ends.

I can't help but believe that there is nothing "wrong" with saying nothing even if it is obvious that your opponent is shooting wrong ball.

There are so many different reasons for telling and not telling that it could fill a book.

What about the fact that most of learn a hard lesson and remember it for a long time, but an easy lesson with someone holding your hand, is easily forgotten.

When you tell your opponent they are shooting the wrong ball, are you really helping them out in the long run? How are you going to become a good player if you can't even pay attention to which ball must be shot next?
 
JoeyA said:
You make too much common sense for Smokey and I. At least you agree that if it is obvious that they are shooting the wrong ball, their opponent should speak up. But where do you draw the line? Dirt bags can interrupt your play and say that they thought when you walked around the table and viewed the shot from a different angle, that you were getting prepared to shoot the wrong ball. It never ends.

I can't help but believe that there is nothing "wrong" with saying nothing even if it is obvious that your opponent is shooting wrong ball.

There are so many different reasons for telling and not telling that it could fill a book.

What about the fact that most of learn a hard lesson and remember it for a long time, but an easy lesson with someone holding your hand, is easily forgotten.

When you tell your opponent they are shooting the wrong ball, are you really helping them out in the long run? How are you going to become a good player if you can't even pay attention to which ball must be shot next?
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Damn it Joey, now YOU'RE making sense!!! :thumbup:

I seem to get from this thread that there are players with varying degrees of opinions on this subject, and many different reasons as to why they would or wouldn't say something to their opponent. There really isn't a right nor wrong way, just the way each individual wants to look at it at the time, and even that can change depending on WHO they are playing at any given time.

It was/is a good thread. Very interesting to hear all the different perspectives.

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
Damn it Joey, now YOU'RE making sense!!! :thumbup:

I seem to get from this thread that there are players with varying degrees of opinions on this subject, and many different reasons as to why they would or wouldn't say something to their opponent. There really isn't a right nor wrong way, just the way each individual wants to look at it at the time, and even that can change depending on WHO they are playing at any given time.

It was/is a good thread. Very interesting to hear all the different perspectives.

Maniac
Click to expand...

I agree!...........
 
Maniac said:
Damn it Joey, now YOU'RE making sense!!! :thumbup:

I seem to get from this thread that there are players with varying degrees of opinions on this subject, and many different reasons as to why they would or wouldn't say something to their opponent. There really isn't a right nor wrong way, just the way each individual wants to look at it at the time, and even that can change depending on WHO they are playing at any given time.

It was/is a good thread. Very interesting to hear all the different perspectives.

Maniac
Click to expand...

me too...

all the best,
smokey
 
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