Was Rempe and Varner better All-Around Players than Sigel, Strickland, and Archer?

LeftyIke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems that Rempe and Varner won a bigger variety of Tournaments than Sigel, Strickland, or Archer. Why aren’t they as celebrated? Were they as talented? Were Ruth McGinnis and Jean Balukas better, or as good as Allison Fisher and Chen Siming?
 

Runner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems that Rempe and Varner won a bigger variety of Tournaments than Sigel, Strickland, or Archer. Why aren’t they as celebrated? Were they as talented? Were Ruth McGinnis and Jean Balukas better, or as good as Allison Fisher and Chen Siming?

IMO, Varner in his time was a true champion.. played all games. That was until
Johnny and Earl started sharpshooting everybody. In tournaments, if Earl hit
his high gear, forget about it.. he beat Nick 9-0 once.

Jean Balukas is regarded as the best female player ever.

$.02
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
IMO, Varner in his time was a true champion.. played all games. That was until
Johnny and Earl started sharpshooting everybody. In tournaments, if Earl hit
his high gear, forget about it.. he beat Nick 9-0 once.

Jean Balukas is regarded as the best female player ever.

$.02

9-0 means zip.

Saw Grady beat Buddy hall in his prime/Reno in match play, Buddy never one a game. Seen that a few times.

I also saw one other match go the same way, at the worlds in Chicago, Roger Griffis was down 12-1....tied it up and lost on the hill.(races to 13)
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
It seems that Rempe and Varner won a bigger variety of Tournaments than Sigel, Strickland, or Archer.
Not really true about Sigel, considering Sigel was the best 14.1 and 9-ball player at the same time. Sigel also won one pocket tournaments.

Why aren’t they as celebrated? Were they as talented?
Definitely as talented, and they *are* celebrated. Both are in the Hall of Fame. Rempe may have the longest undefeated streak in tournament 9-ball play. Nick had the greatest two year professional stint and has won world championships in 5 disciplines. I think they're just old and retired, so they don't get celebrated today. Efren gets celebrated since he's still playing.


Were Ruth McGinnis and Jean Balukas better, or as good as Allison Fisher and Chen Siming?
Always a tough debate, especially since so few watched both. I know Jean ended up playing men's tournaments and cashed in 5 out of 6 events she played. That's good for anyone. And she had solid wins over Keith, Buddy, Lebron in their prime.

To quote Robin Dodson, back when she was asked about the endless debate of Jean vs Allison:

"Ok now I put myself out on the line, my opinion. If Allison would have come during Jean's time, my vote would have been for Jean hands down!"

I asked for clarification on Prime Jean vs Prime Allison, to which she confirmed. Prime Jean over Prime Allison.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/rec.sport.billiard/ZG_nFuhPqrA/XIFEqtvhlr8J


All just opinions. Jean has been nothing but humble when asked this question.


Freddie <~~~ go Jean!!!!!
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've always found it interesting that people think guys like Rempe, Varner, Hall and Sigel are not as celebrated today as they were back then. The fact is, if they stayed active like Reyes and Strickland did, they would still be as big a threat during the last 15-20 years. They just decided to get out because as we all know, one of the reasons is there was no money to be made in the pro game.
 

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I also saw one other match go the same way, at the worlds in Chicago, Roger Griffis was down 12-1....tied it up and lost on the hill.(races to 13)

That was a great match. I was sitting on one side of the room there at the Hilton and my buddy, who was probably around 350-400 lbs, was tired of watching the little guys play and wanted to go over to the other side of the room and see Griffis battle it out. He got a great show.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
My take on it was that Varner, Sigel and Lassiter all have a reasonable claim to having been the best all-around American player ever.

Lassiter's track record at Johnston City, given the fact that the fields were made up of dozens of hall of famers, is simply amazing. If memory serves, he won two of the disciplines in each of three consecutive years in the early 1960's, an almost inconceivable feat. Many feel that Lassiter was the greatest nine baller of his era, and in the one shot shootout rules of his day, Eddie Kelly and Harold Worst were among the very few that would even play him even in nine ball. Lassiter was a beast playing for money.

Varner won world championships in five disciplines, namely 14.1, 8-ball, 9-ball, one pocket and banks. Sigel was as good or better than Varner in 14.1 and 9-ball and was comparable to Nicky in anything but banks. Sigel vs Varner almost too close to call.

Give yourself a pat on the back if you picked any one of these three as America's best ever all-around player.

To me, the undeniably great Jim Rempe is not mentionable with these three as an all-around player.
 

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well...,

It seems that Rempe and Varner won a bigger variety of Tournaments than Sigel, Strickland, or Archer. Why aren’t they as celebrated? Were they as talented? Were Ruth McGinnis and Jean Balukas better, or as good as Allison Fisher and Chen Siming?

Rempe never got the recognition that he should have. He was a great tournament player and as good of a gambler as any of them.
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems that Rempe and Varner won a bigger variety of Tournaments than Sigel, Strickland, or Archer. Why aren’t they as celebrated? Were they as talented? Were Ruth McGinnis and Jean Balukas better, or as good as Allison Fisher and Chen Siming?

Not to degrade pros, but it seems you don't know much about Sigel, in all disciplines of pool. He regularly beat the others you mention, and they don't quite have his record, though theirs is also historic. History is your guide.

All the best,
WW
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My take on it was that Varner, Sigel and Lassiter all have a reasonable claim to having been the best all-around American player ever.

Lassiter's track record at Johnston City, given the fact that the fields were made up of dozens of hall of famers, is simply amazing. If memory serves, he won two of the disciplines in each of three consecutive years in the early 1960's, an almost inconceivable feat. Many feel that Lassiter was the greatest nine baller of his era, and in the one shot shootout rules of his day, Eddie Kelly and Harold Worst were among the very few that would even play him even in nine ball. Lassiter was a beast playing for money.

Varner won world championships in five disciplines, namely 14.1, 8-ball, 9-ball, one pocket and banks. Sigel was as good or better than Varner in 14.1 and 9-ball and was comparable to Nicky in anything but banks. Sigel vs Varner almost too close to call.

Give yourself a pat on the back if you picked any one of these three as America's best ever all-around player.

To me, the undeniably great Jim Rempe is not mentionable with these three as an all-around player.

Keep in mind, Varner in his prime, went to the Philippines and played Efren in his prime and beat em on his home court. Never heard of ANY other player on the planet EVER went to the Phillipines to play him that I know of and beat em. :)

Varner in his prime was probably thee best all around player of all time. The KY Colonel had ZERO rattle, and the tougher the game the tougher he played. He was a good listener and was taught by Hubert Cokes in the 70's then Hal Nix.

Nicky never did drugs and he was never a big drinker....only drug problem he ever had was Cigarettes, and he finally quit that.
 
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book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With the men , it depended on what day it was, as to who would play better.
I watched all of them play many times over the years and
I can remember when every one of them was unbeatable, for a time, when most of the others were playing also.
Archer and Earl came to the party a bit later than the others but had the same effect.
Ruth McGinnis was a fine woman and a very good player , my first post I was thinking of someone else , sorry Ruth.
Jean would have been right there with Allison and Siming although I only have other peoples word to go by on Siming , I only watched her play a little bit.
When Jean was playing it was different , most of the other women were helpless.
Many were C players at best,
I always figured that's why she wanted to play the men.
I'm getting worse in the memory department every day , I think I should pack it in and call it a day.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
9-0 means zip.

Saw Grady beat Buddy hall in his prime/Reno in match play, Buddy never one a game. Seen that a few times.

I also saw one other match go the same way, at the worlds in Chicago, Roger Griffis was down 12-1....tied it up and lost on the hill.(races to 13)

Agereed...I have shared this nugget before.

I played a pretty strong player a few times in east coast events and in 2 of the sets, one of us won 7-0 and the other 9-1.

Others were closer, but those outliers will be seen.

Oh.,... there is also a dude who always beats me...9-7, 5-4, 11-8, always close, but I NEVER win. Last time we played, I thought, 'dammit! I gotta win once, wtf?!'. I won the set 7-0.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Funny, for someone who claims to be so "in the know" from reading books/talking to good players that you could jump behind the claim that Mosconi was a rabid racist, but you don't know that Rempe WAS considered an all-time great when he was playing?

In fact, the first book to ever make mention of Efren Reyes, "Billiards, and the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt", had a nice picture of Rempe, and a decent write up on his accomplishements. I haven't looked at my copy in a while, but I am pretty sure it made little mention of Sigel and Varner, if at all.
 
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jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
With the men , it depended on what day it was, as to who would play better.
I watched all of them play many times over the years and
I can remember when every one of them was unbeatable, for a time, when most of the others were playing also.
Archer and Earl came to the party a bit later than the others but had the same effect.
Ruth McGinnis was a fine woman and a very good player , my first post I was thinking of someone else , sorry Ruth.
Jean would have been right there with Allison and Siming although I only have other peoples word to go by on Siming , I only watched her play a little bit.
When Jean was playing it was different , most of the other women were helpless.
Many were C players at best,
I always figured that's why she wanted to play the men.
I'm getting worse in the memory department every day , I think I should pack it in and call it a day.

Problem is, Allison plays no where near Simings speed.
Jason
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
Funny, for someone who claims to be so "in the know" from reading books/talking to good players that you could jump behind the claim that Mosconi was a rabid racist, but you don't know that Rempe WAS considered an all-time great when he was playing?

In fact, the first book to ever make mention of Efren Reyes, "Billiards, and the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt", had a nice picture of Rempe, and a decent write up on his accomplishements. I haven't looked at my copy in a while, but I am pretty sure it made little mention of Sigel and Varner, if at all.

If I'm writing a book and have access to let's say Justin Bergman, does that mean because I dont write about Shane, Dennis or Chang that means Justin plays better than them?
Jason
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
If I'm writing a book and have access to let's say Justin Bergman, does that mean because I dont write about Shane, Dennis or Chang that means Justin plays better than them?
Jason

I am not saying Rempe plays better than Sigel or Varner.. I am criticizing the OP for his prior claim of Mosconi being a racist, all the while he seems severely under-informed about many aspects of pool.
 

LeftyIke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Believe me, I know about Sigel! He shot Lefty, like I am, and I always watch the Lefties. I know he was a legendary 9-ball and Straight Pool Champion, and not many people beat him in his prime. However I don’t know how good he was at Banks or One-Pocket. I also read that Sigel shot Lefty because his Teacher did, he was actually a Righty! I actually enjoyed seeing Sigel play as much as anybody, because he was so accurate. It’s funny that people criticize him for talking to the audience or himself! I thought it was entertaining. How good of a One-Pocket Players was Sigel? Straight Pool is a Great Teacher for other games. I rank him near the Top n 9-ball.
 
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