wavy joint question

the guy just asked where to get a 3/8-9 wavy tap -- tell him where!!

all of the talk about how tight you make a 60 degree thread fit in wood and the magic it performs is not needed.the modern consumer is told that a joint to be made properly will require two people to screw it together.also the cue has to be very shinny with perfect points and not cost more than 29.95 with a 3000 year warranty.

bill
 
Axial force is what presses the two joint faces together.

If it's too low, the faces will "slip" against each other when the cue vibrates or shakes side to side causing a loss of feel for feedback.

I agree with DD's principles and findings. I do, however, like the 3/8 flat bottom pin. But I may like it for different reasons than what some may think it's for.

I also believe that the purpose of the joint pin is to hold the butt and shaft together. That's it as far as playability is concerned. Alignment of the butt to the shaft is a different thing though.



Hi,

I like to have my big pin on the flat face joint fit tight within my shaft's insert. To attain this I use a standard drill tap that has the minor for my thread up front of the tap. I have the drill part of the tap ground down to create a slightly small minor and follow up with a bottom tap.

When my cue and shaft is complete it is very hard to make up the joint because it is a too tight and you need 4 hands to "get er done". At that point I hand tap the standard non ground drill tap into the shaft to open up the minor in the first 3/8" of the insertion. This procedure forms an interference fit with a stepped minor.

Now when I go to join the cue the first 3/8" is standard minor and it gets tighter as you screw it together and because of the now reduced surface area of the smaller minor you don't need 4 hands to get the cue together but it is a very firm joining.

You don't have to use a drill tap "Drap" and can use a ground drill bit to do the same thing. I prefer the drill tap however.

Although my procedure is a little different, this was Ray Schuler's philosophy. Any one who has ever played with a Schuler understands that the cue actually gets tighter when you hit balls and some time you need an extra hand to break the joint when you are done playing. Ray however used brass pins and an aluminum female pilot on his shafts.

JMO,

Rick

From left to right, bottom tap, standard drill tap, and modified drill tap with a ground minor dia. on the drill end.
100_1006.jpg


Yeah, I am a bastard pin guy but I feel that having more threads per linear inch on a 3/8" flat face and stepped tight minor is just sound good engineering and is justified and not a fairytail marketing ploy. Custom made triple chrome plated brass 3/8" X 14 tpi with round nose.
P1050975.jpg
 
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I can't wait for the 9MM Kerk joint screw.

DJ, you might as well get that shaft live threaded.
 
Axial force is what presses the two joint faces together.

If it's too low, the faces will "slip" against each other when the cue vibrates or shakes side to side causing a loss of feel for feedback.

I agree with DD's principles and findings. I do, however, like the 3/8 flat bottom pin. But I may like it for different reasons than what some may think it's for.

I also believe that the purpose of the joint pin is to hold the butt and shaft together. That's it as far as playability is concerned. Alignment of the butt to the shaft is a different thing though.

thank you, very interesting.
 
Correct, I feel that the flat-bottomed is a poor excuse for a locating feature.

dld

Take a cue with a "engineerd" 5/16-18 pin, it's matching shaft with it's brass incert-screw the shaft on the cue a couple of turns (leaving a big gap between shaft and cue at it's joint) then try moving the shaft sideways to check for play.

Then put one of Bob's shaft on his cue with the mentioned threads and do the same-try to move the shaft sideways.

I find the difference in result a good excuse for Bob to make exacly what he has done....
 
Take a cue with a "engineerd" 5/16-18 pin, it's matching shaft with it's brass incert-screw the shaft on the cue a couple of turns (leaving a big gap between shaft and cue at it's joint) then try moving the shaft sideways to check for play.

Then put one of Bob's shaft on his cue with the mentioned threads and do the same-try to move the shaft sideways.

I find the difference in result a good excuse for Bob to make exacly what he has done....

What you are doing is taking a rolled thread pin and putting it into the cheapest insert you can buy and thinking that is an engineered thread
set up. Now take a cut thread pin and a brass insert that is not mass produced and made specifically for that pin and bingo the same no side movement. It's all about tolerances.
No matter what pin you use, it's a matter of how well it's made. Both on the male and female end.
 
Take a cue with a "engineerd" 5/16-18 pin, it's matching shaft with it's brass incert-screw the shaft on the cue a couple of turns (leaving a big gap between shaft and cue at it's joint) then try moving the shaft sideways to check for play.

Then put one of Bob's shaft on his cue with the mentioned threads and do the same-try to move the shaft sideways.

I find the difference in result a good excuse for Bob to make exacly what he has done....

Play a lot of pool with a big gap between the shaft collar and the
butt joint collar do we?

Dale
 
so this has turned into a structural integrity discussion of all of the positive and excellent results you get from using a wooden nut with a metal bolt.
also using various forms of a 60 deg thread that exerts pressure pushing the walls of the wooden nut outwards while trying to achieve a crush.
please continue for the observation purposes of the visitors.

bill
 
so this has turned into a structural integrity discussion of all of the positive and excellent results you get from using a wooden nut with a metal bolt.
also using various forms of a 60 deg thread that exerts pressure pushing the walls of the wooden nut outwards while trying to achieve a crush.
please continue for the observation purposes of the visitors.

bill

Yes indeed, but it won't be relevant untill we determine which threads
most closely apply to various aiming systems.

Dale
 
Play a lot of pool with a big gap between the shaft collar and the
butt joint collar do we?

Dale

You are missing the point...
When some one says a cuemaker is not trying to improve tolerances and sloppynes in a "engineerd" standard thread but making a "unconventional" one just to be special-it's not always true..They are done for a reason.

Doing the simple test I mentoned gives a indication of the difference-of course no one is playing like this.....It's obvious.

As Steve mention, the "engineerd" threads are made to certain tolerances. If the supplier of these items is not holding these, then you either make your own joint bolt or make your own incerts for the standard threads or make it all your self in "engineerd" dimmentions.

Mezz has done the first, some do the last, one is called a bastard thread and those making "engineerd" threads with closer tolerances than what you buy stock is "ok".

To the OP-sorry that the discussion has taken off-PM me if your buddy needs help and I'll do my best to help.

My last post on the toppic.

K
 
From a cue-performance standpoint, what, if any, are the reasons we should prefer a tight-fitting joint to one with lots of play or sloppiness as it is screwed together? Assume both types draw the butt and shaft joint faces together tightly, and they stay that way during use.
 
If you are going to make a claim that something is 'just sound engineering', then prove it. That is what engineers do. They design using known mathematical and physical theories/laws.

Until someone can show me a proof that I cannot refute, then it actually is a marketing fairytale.

Justify any shite that you want to use in whatever way you want, but if you say it is 'engineered' or is better, then be prepared to prove it.

dld

DD,

The engineers design the taps and I only use them. I can only control the insert material selection, minor size and embedment length.

I never said better. Just a sound practice I took from Ray Schuler's philosophy or play book. Ray was a graduate engineer and learned the art of building cues from Herman Rambow. He also built cues for 40 years and had an impressive list of world champions who used his cues exclusively including Raymond Cuelemans. His example and advise is something that I miss and surely valued.

Maybe I should have chosen my words better to get a point across. I think that Mezz makes a very good cue and would never say anything bad about their new joining system as I don't have any experience with it. I would like to know more about it however. I would never bash anything without observational experience. That's only fair.

There are different reasons that people use a non standard pin ( not just marketing ) and I was just pointing out my tapping method for an example concerning the subject and the way this thread was going.

I am sure that when Bill Stroud introduced his radial pin concept he had some nay sayers at the time as has been implied here about the Mezz pin. Only time will tell.

Also mechanical torque specifications for threading metals does not apply to threads cut in wood or phenolic insert materials with reference to thread degradation issues that would be applicable in this case.

If people don't try different things in a discipline, progress or improvement opportunities vanish. There is a reason why most CMs are not using an Acme thread anymore.

No one here is going to change their way of doing things because of my post for sure nor was that my motivation. I just wanted to share a point of view and one method or way of getting a job done with a different twist and a desirable outcome. IMO. There a many ways to skin a cat however.

I can tell you this, as someone who has bought a few custom cues in my day and one who builds and sells custom cues, that no one wants to buy a cue that when they screw it together it feels loose until it faces. This has been my observation in this area. Right or wrong, perception is reality and a tighter fit is more desirable to a player. The facing is paramount of coarse. If your concentricity is spot on there is no reason why you can't have a tight threaded fit and great facing.

If you are building cues for players this is something that is important that people do care about.

IMO, "who cares" and cue making should not be in the same sentence if you are putting your name and product out there. Every feature element and every tolerance detail is paramount and very important to the serious cue maker.


Rick

Who cares if you can move the shaft sideways when it isn't tight? The AXIAL force in the joint creates the forces on the joint face to resolve the moment (I'll assume you know the engineering definition of 'moment' or will look it up) created when hitting a ball.

dld
 
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Hi all cuemakers ;)

I got a friend, he have a 314-1 shaft 3/8x10
he's very satisfy with his predator shaft..
but now he bought a 2nd hand exceed cue (only butt)
and he want to use his 314-1 on it, but that shaft have a 3/8x10
the exceed got a mezz wavy joint it's 3/8x9...
But what I wanna know, is there a 3/8x9 tap??

thanks DJ



And to think, 4 pages to answer a very simple question.

But since everyone seems to have an opinion, I'll state mine in my usual diplomatic method. The way Mezz states that the longer shoulder is needed to "help locate the pin into the center of the hole, is just poor wording and marketing.

If I was John Q. Public, I'd say to myself, they can't bore or drill a hole exact enough that they need "help" in locating the pin into the center of the hole?

A hole is either centered or it's not. If you need a longer shoulder to "help locate" the center, well you need more precise construction. I'm sure this is not the case but I do think they need to re-word their marketing brochure. It's a case of poor wording.
 
And to think, 4 pages to answer a very simple question.

But since everyone seems to have an opinion, I'll state mine in my usual diplomatic method. The way Mezz states that the longer shoulder is needed to "help locate the pin into the center of the hole, is just poor wording and marketing.

If I was John Q. Public, I'd say to myself, they can't bore or drill a hole exact enough that they need "help" in locating the pin into the center of the hole?

A hole is either centered or it's not. If you need a longer shoulder to "help locate" the center, well you need more precise construction. I'm sure this is not the case but I do think they need to re-word their marketing brochure. It's a case of poor wording.

How I read their wording as a cuemaker is this. "The long alignment shoulder will help keep you from cross-threading the shaft on the joint pin."
 
From a cue-performance standpoint, what, if any, are the reasons we should prefer a tight-fitting joint to one with lots of play or sloppiness as it is screwed together? Assume both types draw the butt and shaft joint faces together tightly, and they stay that way during use.

My Mezz feels like a one piece cue. I also own a Viking and Pechauer. Have tried friends cues also. Maybe it is in my imagination, but the other cues feel like 2 pieces. Some more than others.

That feeling of one piece helps with sense of touch. Position, soft shots, speed control, etc..
 
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