What A Great Format At the Seminole tour
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
This format should be the complete standard, it's not even close. From a spectator standpoint you are constantly getting good matches to watch since the top performing players are always matching up. You can ALWAYS see who is in the lead. I mean how much of a difference does it make to be at a pool tournament and you can give a legitimate answer to the question "Who is in first place?". Watching the updates after every round like others have mentioned adds a great dimension to the tournament. Not to mention the round play being a standard 10 games makes it much easier for spectators/players/the tournament director to set/anticipate match times. These are the kind of qualities pool, or any sport for that matter, needs to succeed at being interesting and enjoyable to follow.
From a player standpoint you are guaranteed to play a lot of pool from the get go. You don't get penalized for watching a guy break and run, but if you manage to break and run yourself there is great reward. I honestly can't come up with a single complaint against this format.
Umm...first off it really isn't, but honestly what else is a pool tournament supposed to be? lol. If you paid attention to the leader board you'd see that having the highest B&Rs doesn't equate to being in first place, or even in the top 5 (ie: Justin Hall was tied with the most B&Rs at 10, but he was in 8th place.) But still, if you aren't breaking and running in a tournament, how much do you really expect to compete? *shrug*
That is the great thing about 10 ball, as you can learn in Joe T's wonderful Racking Secrets DVD, the rack isn't flawed like 9 ball and really can't be manipulated. Thus, rack your own makes complete sense.
Hats off to Johnnyt for highlighting this format and hats off to Corey and the Seminole organization for putting on a top shelf event. I hope there are many more to come like this!
From a player standpoint you are guaranteed to play a lot of pool from the get go. You don't get penalized for watching a guy break and run, but if you manage to break and run yourself there is great reward. I honestly can't come up with a single complaint against this format.
Umm...first off it really isn't, but honestly what else is a pool tournament supposed to be? lol. If you paid attention to the leader board you'd see that having the highest B&Rs doesn't equate to being in first place, or even in the top 5 (ie: Justin Hall was tied with the most B&Rs at 10, but he was in 8th place.) But still, if you aren't breaking and running in a tournament, how much do you really expect to compete? *shrug*
That is the great thing about 10 ball, as you can learn in Joe T's wonderful Racking Secrets DVD, the rack isn't flawed like 9 ball and really can't be manipulated. Thus, rack your own makes complete sense.
Hats off to Johnnyt for highlighting this format and hats off to Corey and the Seminole organization for putting on a top shelf event. I hope there are many more to come like this!
Great format - one suggestion
I like the format and think it is one of the best innovations to date. I like the idea that it is an open registration and encourages anyone to play. This leads to larger fields and more money. It is a great way to bring on new players and support the top players.
From what I observed it was “winner breaks” and this should be changed to alternate breaks. With winner breaks the top players are given too much potential advantage when they have the possibility of running multiple racks. This did not happen on the TV table with 4.25” pockets.
However, when you have a field of 80 players and 10 - 20 top pros who are able to learn the break patterns on a “regular” table, the advantage given to the top pros is too much. One of the reasons for making it an “Open” registration is to encourage the non-pros to register and to have a chance to place in the money. Sitting there while a top pro takes a 3 – 4 point lead on the leader board would be discouraging and eventually would lead the lower ranked players to not put up the $300 - $500.00 entry fee.
The top pros are going to win anyway but I see no good reason to stick the lower level players in the chair for extended periods of time. These guys need a real fighting chance.
While the streaming was good there is a need to have easier access to the leader board while the tournament is played. I got it to work "OK" but it took a while to set it up. The streaming was on my 60" TV and was on all day with great resolution. Given that the stream had to re-start severl times and my computer would lose contact I had to spend five minutes to set up each time they went down. A better system is needed with easy access to the lead board.
Having multiple cameras was excellent and the ability to see a couple of tables while Table Three was the primary was a great touch. At one pont a match ended and they used a telephoto lens to focus in on a back table where Strickland was finishing up a match. Great video all day and very much worth the money.
I like the format and think it is one of the best innovations to date. I like the idea that it is an open registration and encourages anyone to play. This leads to larger fields and more money. It is a great way to bring on new players and support the top players.
From what I observed it was “winner breaks” and this should be changed to alternate breaks. With winner breaks the top players are given too much potential advantage when they have the possibility of running multiple racks. This did not happen on the TV table with 4.25” pockets.
However, when you have a field of 80 players and 10 - 20 top pros who are able to learn the break patterns on a “regular” table, the advantage given to the top pros is too much. One of the reasons for making it an “Open” registration is to encourage the non-pros to register and to have a chance to place in the money. Sitting there while a top pro takes a 3 – 4 point lead on the leader board would be discouraging and eventually would lead the lower ranked players to not put up the $300 - $500.00 entry fee.
The top pros are going to win anyway but I see no good reason to stick the lower level players in the chair for extended periods of time. These guys need a real fighting chance.
While the streaming was good there is a need to have easier access to the leader board while the tournament is played. I got it to work "OK" but it took a while to set it up. The streaming was on my 60" TV and was on all day with great resolution. Given that the stream had to re-start severl times and my computer would lose contact I had to spend five minutes to set up each time they went down. A better system is needed with easy access to the lead board.
Having multiple cameras was excellent and the ability to see a couple of tables while Table Three was the primary was a great touch. At one pont a match ended and they used a telephoto lens to focus in on a back table where Strickland was finishing up a match. Great video all day and very much worth the money.
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The final 4 were Alex, Nevel, Earl and Adam Smith, don't know what happened, I had to leave and drive back to Orlando. The format was ok, but needs to be tweaked a little. The break and run was confusing, if your opp. broke and ran the balls, it did not hurt you, which is still confusing to me. Tom
I like the format. This sounds like the beginning of great things.:thumbup:
This is one thing that is lacking on a lot of the big tournaments...follow ups.
I was told by a player that if you made it to the top 20 you would get at least,$950.
that is what I was told, might not be correct. Only the last 20 got any prize money.
that is what I was told, might not be correct. Only the last 20 got any prize money.
I like somethings, but dislike a few things as well. Hopefully this is taken as constructive!
Why cut off at 20 players? That means you have players that went 3-1 in the round robin or 2-1-1 that don't make the cash. (Donnie Mills 2-1-1, Mitch Ellerman 2-1-1, Shawn Putnam 2-0-2, Butch Croft 3-1, Walter Blacker 3-1, David Ross 2-0-2, Mike Dechaine 2-1-1, Anthony Meglino 2-1-1, Ronny Park 2-1-1, Dee Adkins 2-1-1) Putnam didn't lose 1 match and got eliminated out of the money. Up till the last round, both Mitch Ellerman and Tony Crosby were in the top 20 and had to play each other. They battled to a 5-5 tie and both got eliminated because of it. (Before the match they could have said, "hey whoever gets to five first, we should let get to 6, else we both lose.")
I understand giving some sort of bonus for a Break-n-Run (not Brake), but a full point seems crazy. Maybe for some fans it's more exciting to see a break-n-run, but many would rather see some great safeties, kicks, banks, etc. You also have more luck added into the game as not every rack is runable based on layout. It would seem that rack your own, magic rack, with bonus for run outs equal to a full game win would only promote pattern racking?!? Maybe not...
Why cut off at 20 players? That means you have players that went 3-1 in the round robin or 2-1-1 that don't make the cash. (Donnie Mills 2-1-1, Mitch Ellerman 2-1-1, Shawn Putnam 2-0-2, Butch Croft 3-1, Walter Blacker 3-1, David Ross 2-0-2, Mike Dechaine 2-1-1, Anthony Meglino 2-1-1, Ronny Park 2-1-1, Dee Adkins 2-1-1) Putnam didn't lose 1 match and got eliminated out of the money. Up till the last round, both Mitch Ellerman and Tony Crosby were in the top 20 and had to play each other. They battled to a 5-5 tie and both got eliminated because of it. (Before the match they could have said, "hey whoever gets to five first, we should let get to 6, else we both lose.")
I understand giving some sort of bonus for a Break-n-Run (not Brake), but a full point seems crazy. Maybe for some fans it's more exciting to see a break-n-run, but many would rather see some great safeties, kicks, banks, etc. You also have more luck added into the game as not every rack is runable based on layout. It would seem that rack your own, magic rack, with bonus for run outs equal to a full game win would only promote pattern racking?!? Maybe not...
Also, if you bought the stream you got some good tips from some of the top pros that came in the booth for awhile. With the great close-ups and camera work you could follow what the pro in the booth was saying about how the next shot would be shot and a lot of the pros added the WHY to it. The whole 3 days for $35 was a steal IMO. All the match-ups on the stream table were either the top pros or very watchable. How many hours of PPV boxing, cage fighting, or wrestling do you get for $35? This event gave you about 40 hours or good to great pool. Johnnyt
This seems a little funny!
It says in rule 8 that ref. may refer to WPA ,BCA , or Texas Express rules aren't they all a bit different. What is the ref suppose to do ,pick the set of rules that favors the player he or she is betting on. Or the player they happen to like the best?
vague
Also the breaking rule seems a little funny, as it says if I break them and do not spread them and there is a ruling the ref can tell me to break again. But what if I didn't make a ball on the first break and I break again and do make a ball is this fair for my opponent?????
If your opponent breaks and runs the first 5 racks the best you can do is to lose 10-9 in points,even if he breaks dry in rack 6 and you run out the rest of the set. I like it when the two players at the table are fighting to stay on the winners side not just playing for points.
Rule #4 seems very vague when it says 10 ball will be spotted right away unless it blocks or bothers the breaker from shooting the next ball in rotation. Well what if it doesn't block but it bothers me because of bla bla bla, rule way to vague IMO
Also the breaking rule seems a little funny, as it says if I break them and do not spread them and there is a ruling the ref can tell me to break again. But what if I didn't make a ball on the first break and I break again and do make a ball is this fair for my opponent?????
If your opponent breaks and runs the first 5 racks the best you can do is to lose 10-9 in points,even if he breaks dry in rack 6 and you run out the rest of the set. I like it when the two players at the table are fighting to stay on the winners side not just playing for points.
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We apologize for the delay in posting winners and payouts but were busy travelling back to be able to do so!!! Here is a new thread with the winner info posted: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=237890
Thank you again for your support!
Thank you again for your support!
Format no good.
This format was no good. It is much like a Calcutta, it promotes the opportunity for cheating. Which is not conducive to hosting a PROFESSIONAL event. I for long have enjoyed Seminole Events and all are class act events! But when Corey did this format in 2009 there was some questionable calls with who had break and runs, and I was witness to some of these QUESTIONABLE calls. As I was at that event in 2009, and I was at the Seminole event this past weekend.
There is a reason why the tournament director HID the final scores when they started to get down to the end, because they knew people would be doing the math, and throwing matches. When someone wins 9-1 and has 4 break and runs you start to question the validity of such, when you are at the final 20 players, who have played great pool all weekend.
So with that being said this format is no good. It promotes players to cheat because they at the end of the day need money. These professional players deserve more than the world is giving them, they deserve to make a decent living and an honest living at that. However, pool doesn’t allow them to do it. Players have to gamble, hustle, and sometimes cheat to make a buck. unfortunately this is the case.
I have seen a player win a tournament, have his buddy gambling, he lost, because he was being backed by the player who won. Now they were BROKE and had no way to get back NORTH to where they lived, so what did they have to do? Go to local pool rooms and ruffle up some cheap action so they could get gas money to drive back north. Pretty bad that these players have to live like this, but that is pool.
So with all of this being said, one must think that the format used by the Seminole Pro Tour is no good, 90% of the players who entered are broke and will die broke pool players, playing for a living, and gambling their last dollar on some cheap action. At the pro level this mathematic advantage should not be permitted. Because after the first round players were already doing math to figure out what they need, in the form of wins, and break and runs to keep themselves at the top of the leader board. This is cheating and should not be permitted and frankly at the pro level NO GOOD. Terrible format.
This format was no good. It is much like a Calcutta, it promotes the opportunity for cheating. Which is not conducive to hosting a PROFESSIONAL event. I for long have enjoyed Seminole Events and all are class act events! But when Corey did this format in 2009 there was some questionable calls with who had break and runs, and I was witness to some of these QUESTIONABLE calls. As I was at that event in 2009, and I was at the Seminole event this past weekend.
There is a reason why the tournament director HID the final scores when they started to get down to the end, because they knew people would be doing the math, and throwing matches. When someone wins 9-1 and has 4 break and runs you start to question the validity of such, when you are at the final 20 players, who have played great pool all weekend.
So with that being said this format is no good. It promotes players to cheat because they at the end of the day need money. These professional players deserve more than the world is giving them, they deserve to make a decent living and an honest living at that. However, pool doesn’t allow them to do it. Players have to gamble, hustle, and sometimes cheat to make a buck. unfortunately this is the case.
I have seen a player win a tournament, have his buddy gambling, he lost, because he was being backed by the player who won. Now they were BROKE and had no way to get back NORTH to where they lived, so what did they have to do? Go to local pool rooms and ruffle up some cheap action so they could get gas money to drive back north. Pretty bad that these players have to live like this, but that is pool.
So with all of this being said, one must think that the format used by the Seminole Pro Tour is no good, 90% of the players who entered are broke and will die broke pool players, playing for a living, and gambling their last dollar on some cheap action. At the pro level this mathematic advantage should not be permitted. Because after the first round players were already doing math to figure out what they need, in the form of wins, and break and runs to keep themselves at the top of the leader board. This is cheating and should not be permitted and frankly at the pro level NO GOOD. Terrible format.
I think having a laptop on each table and having to put your stats up after every game stops a lot of that. The players never no who's watching it go up instantly on the leader board. But I wouldn't worry much about it. The ABP will be putting rules in for cheating, dumping, spliting, and the like, very soon. Punishment will probably be sitting out of all tournaments for a year:smile:. Johnnyt
Say what?
I doubt that, I know of some LOOK GOOD dumping that happened this weekend, for a fact, because I heard the players talking about it. And the ABP has players on their list that were a part of this. It happens, because again, they are broke. The ABP is great and I personally talked to Archer and others this weekend, but don't think for a second that the ABP is going to be the be all end all savior of the game.
Big deal having a laptop at the table, that doesn’t mean they have to make a ball? Or miss on purpose, because the player realizes they can't make the cut so they might as well make a saver with the other player and dump the rest of the games. It happened this weekend, and will continue to happen. Not to mention they didn't tell anyone about the format before arriving to the event, that was crap too. This is a terrible format, and should only be used once a year if Corey wants to keep doing it.
Corey is a great guy and the Seminole Tribe is the best thing going on in pool right now, so I don't what either to think I am bad mouthing them, it is just not a suitable format for professional pool. Pro pool should be the following and NOTHING LESS.
10 ball
Alternate break
use magic rack
rack your own
10 doesn’t count
call shot/call safe
TO SECURE A WIN, the 10 must have followed a run of 3 balls or more, or the 10 gets banked. (this way if someone misses the 10 ball the rack starts over)
This would make professional pool more exciting, for spectators. Who wants to see a tournament be won by a player dogging the final 10 ball, and the other player walk up and tap it in, NO, a run of 3 balls or more or a bank or that game is a WASH.
Races to 9 or 11.
This is what pool should be, this is how a pro tournament should be run, and what does this solve?
This solves racking issues, and it each player knows no matter what they will get a chance the next rack by having a break. This is more exciting and the end result is a TON more hill hill matches, which are exciting to watch. That is the future of pool. And if anyone wants to use my format go ahead you have my permission. -- Mike Andrews
I doubt that, I know of some LOOK GOOD dumping that happened this weekend, for a fact, because I heard the players talking about it. And the ABP has players on their list that were a part of this. It happens, because again, they are broke. The ABP is great and I personally talked to Archer and others this weekend, but don't think for a second that the ABP is going to be the be all end all savior of the game.
Big deal having a laptop at the table, that doesn’t mean they have to make a ball? Or miss on purpose, because the player realizes they can't make the cut so they might as well make a saver with the other player and dump the rest of the games. It happened this weekend, and will continue to happen. Not to mention they didn't tell anyone about the format before arriving to the event, that was crap too. This is a terrible format, and should only be used once a year if Corey wants to keep doing it.
Corey is a great guy and the Seminole Tribe is the best thing going on in pool right now, so I don't what either to think I am bad mouthing them, it is just not a suitable format for professional pool. Pro pool should be the following and NOTHING LESS.
10 ball
Alternate break
use magic rack
rack your own
10 doesn’t count
call shot/call safe
TO SECURE A WIN, the 10 must have followed a run of 3 balls or more, or the 10 gets banked. (this way if someone misses the 10 ball the rack starts over)
This would make professional pool more exciting, for spectators. Who wants to see a tournament be won by a player dogging the final 10 ball, and the other player walk up and tap it in, NO, a run of 3 balls or more or a bank or that game is a WASH.
Races to 9 or 11.
This is what pool should be, this is how a pro tournament should be run, and what does this solve?
This solves racking issues, and it each player knows no matter what they will get a chance the next rack by having a break. This is more exciting and the end result is a TON more hill hill matches, which are exciting to watch. That is the future of pool. And if anyone wants to use my format go ahead you have my permission. -- Mike Andrews
I like 90% of what you said . . .
Mike,
I like 90% of what you said in the last two posts so naturally this being AZB I'm going to focus on the one thing I disagree with.
The players are like the entire rest of the world, they don't deserve a thing they don't earn. Without finding a way to find paying fans and sponsors they don't deserve a bit more than they are getting. Since so many big events seem to be ran more as a labor of love than a cash cow it could even be argued they are already getting more than they deserve. I'd like to see the 50th ranked player in the US making a decent living from competition alone but pool is a world away from that happening.
I shot benchrest with the best in the world, hall of famers, world record holders, the man that wrote the book on benchrest, on and on. One of these guys has dominated benchrest in a way that nobody has ever dominated pool. They surely deserve as much from their efforts which require every bit as much work and knowledge as shooting pool as the pool players deserve for playing pool. Lucky if there is a couple thousand of added goodies at a national event. The purse comes out of the shooter's pockets and they do pay a "greens fee".
Many other activities that the best in the world aren't compensated in relationship to their skills too. The pro pool players don't deserve and aren't entitled to a thing they don't earn. When a sugar daddy comes along and puts on an IPT or a Galveston that is wonderful but it isn't something deserved. The pro's need to lose their feelings of entitlement and maybe they could start working with each other and the other people in the pool world to make pool into something to justify people being able to make a living playing. Looking at it rationally pool players are entertainers. Right now the general public isn't finding them entertaining so they have nothing to sell to sponsors.
I like what you had to say about how tournaments should be ran. Might slow down the tourney a little but I like the idea of the ten ball having to be part of a few ball run rather than somebody running the table and choking able to give the other person the game. I can see this leading to a lot of tie games but I'd like to see it tried. We need some out the box thinking.
Hu
Mike,
I like 90% of what you said in the last two posts so naturally this being AZB I'm going to focus on the one thing I disagree with.
The players are like the entire rest of the world, they don't deserve a thing they don't earn. Without finding a way to find paying fans and sponsors they don't deserve a bit more than they are getting. Since so many big events seem to be ran more as a labor of love than a cash cow it could even be argued they are already getting more than they deserve. I'd like to see the 50th ranked player in the US making a decent living from competition alone but pool is a world away from that happening.
I shot benchrest with the best in the world, hall of famers, world record holders, the man that wrote the book on benchrest, on and on. One of these guys has dominated benchrest in a way that nobody has ever dominated pool. They surely deserve as much from their efforts which require every bit as much work and knowledge as shooting pool as the pool players deserve for playing pool. Lucky if there is a couple thousand of added goodies at a national event. The purse comes out of the shooter's pockets and they do pay a "greens fee".
Many other activities that the best in the world aren't compensated in relationship to their skills too. The pro pool players don't deserve and aren't entitled to a thing they don't earn. When a sugar daddy comes along and puts on an IPT or a Galveston that is wonderful but it isn't something deserved. The pro's need to lose their feelings of entitlement and maybe they could start working with each other and the other people in the pool world to make pool into something to justify people being able to make a living playing. Looking at it rationally pool players are entertainers. Right now the general public isn't finding them entertaining so they have nothing to sell to sponsors.
I like what you had to say about how tournaments should be ran. Might slow down the tourney a little but I like the idea of the ten ball having to be part of a few ball run rather than somebody running the table and choking able to give the other person the game. I can see this leading to a lot of tie games but I'd like to see it tried. We need some out the box thinking.
Hu
Well... The choking will come less and less, know if you miss it, your opponent can't win unless he banks it. So the format is good, and I think it should be the future of pool, but you don't see hordes of people commenting on that?! Do we?Mike,
I like 90% of what you said in the last two posts so naturally this being AZB I'm going to focus on the one thing I disagree with.
The players are like the entire rest of the world, they don't deserve a thing they don't earn. Without finding a way to find paying fans and sponsors they don't deserve a bit more than they are getting. Since so many big events seem to be ran more as a labor of love than a cash cow it could even be argued they are already getting more than they deserve. I'd like to see the 50th ranked player in the US making a decent living from competition alone but pool is a world away from that happening.
I shot benchrest with the best in the world, hall of famers, world record holders, the man that wrote the book on benchrest, on and on. One of these guys has dominated benchrest in a way that nobody has ever dominated pool. They surely deserve as much from their efforts which require every bit as much work and knowledge as shooting pool as the pool players deserve for playing pool. Lucky if there is a couple thousand of added goodies at a national event. The purse comes out of the shooter's pockets and they do pay a "greens fee".
Many other activities that the best in the world aren't compensated in relationship to their skills too. The pro pool players don't deserve and aren't entitled to a thing they don't earn. When a sugar daddy comes along and puts on an IPT or a Galveston that is wonderful but it isn't something deserved. The pro's need to lose their feelings of entitlement and maybe they could start working with each other and the other people in the pool world to make pool into something to justify people being able to make a living playing. Looking at it rationally pool players are entertainers. Right now the general public isn't finding them entertaining so they have nothing to sell to sponsors.
I like what you had to say about how tournaments should be ran. Might slow down the tourney a little but I like the idea of the ten ball having to be part of a few ball run rather than somebody running the table and choking able to give the other person the game. I can see this leading to a lot of tie games but I'd like to see it tried. We need some out the box thinking.
Hu
Pool needs and innovator and corporate America to take a chance on pool, all of which I have been working on for the last 3 years, but... I have for the last 2 years been working a full time job, and still trying to play pool and run events.
BUT back to the rest of your post... I think that everyone should be rewarded for their talents. I am a fraud investigator, so I get paid well to do what I do, why? Because I am good at it. I make as much if not more than everyone in pool except the few TOP players who are in the top 10-15 or so...
So if life choose my down the path I am and I am good at something I deserve to be rewarded for it. The negative stigma and BAD backroom deals that have been made in professional pool are not the fault of, Mike Davis, Shaun Willkie, and other your TURE professionals who love the game. It isn't their fault people have messed up the game, and those to are personal friends, and they both deserve more than the pool world is giving them.
Now the gamblers, hustlers and the drug addicts they get exactly what they deserve, and this is something I have had to explain to corporations that, there is a difference between gamblers, and real professional players. TOP professional players don't need to gamble or hustle people for money, no they are good enough to make a living at the game of pool. NOW that is not to say that don't gamble because most do, SVB is a perfect example. Which that is fine in the manner which he and others gamble.
Now if SVB walked in to a bar in California and started playing some local dim whit for some cash, and he knew nothing about pool and he was just taking the guys money unfairly that would be a different story.
The problem is the true professionals DO deserve more than the world is giving them because they did not mess up multimillion dollar deals in the 90's, which kept the men’s professional pool off from TV. No they didn't cause that, and now that their generation and the younger generation like Jesse Engle is up and coming, they have to deal with the negative stigma pool is.
Again, not fair. But we need to start within ourselves and change the way we play pool and these tournaments. Just because you know how to rack "intelligently" or know how to "rack good" for your opponent doesn’t mean you have do, what’s wrong with giving a guy a good rack, on the spot and not mess around with the damn rack? All too often I have sat at top events and played events were racking was an issue.
And to stay true to the original post, this format only allows for more cheating, so that needs to go too. Take away the chance to cheat, its like a lock on your house, it is only designed to keep honest people honest.
Let’s fix that first, then worry about everything else.
back in nineteen hundred and seventy-three . . .
Mike,
Back in 1973 I took a hard look at professional pool such as it was and decided it was the least likely of several long shot paths I would have liked to make a living at. I made a living playing pool sometimes but it was far from by being a competitor, to make a living I was clubbing baby seals over 90% of the time. I didn't lie to people but I hung a lot of misleading bait out. When somebody tried to hustle me it got expensive in a hurry most of the time.
That is getting a little ways away from the subject though, the truth is that it is nothing new that pool isn't a viable living for pro players and really hasn't been for as long as I can remember. Work with a few basic assumptions. A pro player needs to gross $100,000 or more a year before expenses if he is to spend the time on the road and have a home and family. We need a core of at least fifty pro players to have at least thirty-two at any given pro event anywhere in the US. This means that the 50th ranked player needs to make $100,000 gross before expenses and the better players would of course make more.
While the above numbers are assumptions they are based on what I have seen for competitor costs and the number of competitors that make individual events. The only thing that is likely to be off is the gross needed because legitimate competitors need to pay taxes which takes a big chunk out of winnings. Self employment tax is somewhere around sixteen percent by itself the last I knew and that was long ago. Twenty-eight and sixteen along with a few more bites means almost half of your adjusted gross goes to the tax man.
We will have to agree to disagree concerning what modern pool players deserve. You are looking at it from the standpoint that they are good guys who work hard and deserve to be compensated for their work effort and skills. I'm looking at it from the standpoint that they are only worth a share of the profits they can generate for promoters and sponsors just like any other athlete or entertainer.
It is a lot like the definition of work. Work is defined as weight times the distance moved. You can push against the side of a mountain as hard as you can for eight hours a day all of your life and you have done no work in scientific terms. Picking up a pebble and putting it in your pocket and walking across the room with it represents more work as the definition of work is results oriented not effort oriented. Unfortunately the pro players can spend a lifetime pushing against their own mountain and unless they create cash flow for others all of their efforts are largely meaningless in the scheme of things. Many pool players don't seem to realize this and they shoot themselves and the sport in the foot by thinking all they should have to do is show up and win events to live happily ever after.
For the most part big event promoters seem to be as unrealistic as the players, they make big promises with good intentions but then find that real cashflow falls far short of projections. I believer few if any really planned to leave the players hung out to dry but when the cash isn't there it just isn't there. Been there and done that when I was racing short track cars. Regardless of what promoters promised they either had to cut purses sometimes or go under. It benefited nobody for them to go under although that happened time after time. Sometimes it was driver's and owner's associations that forced them under with demands they couldn't meet. There might be a lesson in that for the ABP.
I do very sincerely commend you for your efforts and wish you luck. I think the best hope for pool is to quit dreaming of overnight miracles and start building block by block from what is for all practical purposes ground level. it will take years to work but it would have taken years to work had we started in 1970 too. It is going to take long term vision to make professional pool successful, or so I believe.
Hu
Mike,
Back in 1973 I took a hard look at professional pool such as it was and decided it was the least likely of several long shot paths I would have liked to make a living at. I made a living playing pool sometimes but it was far from by being a competitor, to make a living I was clubbing baby seals over 90% of the time. I didn't lie to people but I hung a lot of misleading bait out. When somebody tried to hustle me it got expensive in a hurry most of the time.
That is getting a little ways away from the subject though, the truth is that it is nothing new that pool isn't a viable living for pro players and really hasn't been for as long as I can remember. Work with a few basic assumptions. A pro player needs to gross $100,000 or more a year before expenses if he is to spend the time on the road and have a home and family. We need a core of at least fifty pro players to have at least thirty-two at any given pro event anywhere in the US. This means that the 50th ranked player needs to make $100,000 gross before expenses and the better players would of course make more.
While the above numbers are assumptions they are based on what I have seen for competitor costs and the number of competitors that make individual events. The only thing that is likely to be off is the gross needed because legitimate competitors need to pay taxes which takes a big chunk out of winnings. Self employment tax is somewhere around sixteen percent by itself the last I knew and that was long ago. Twenty-eight and sixteen along with a few more bites means almost half of your adjusted gross goes to the tax man.
We will have to agree to disagree concerning what modern pool players deserve. You are looking at it from the standpoint that they are good guys who work hard and deserve to be compensated for their work effort and skills. I'm looking at it from the standpoint that they are only worth a share of the profits they can generate for promoters and sponsors just like any other athlete or entertainer.
It is a lot like the definition of work. Work is defined as weight times the distance moved. You can push against the side of a mountain as hard as you can for eight hours a day all of your life and you have done no work in scientific terms. Picking up a pebble and putting it in your pocket and walking across the room with it represents more work as the definition of work is results oriented not effort oriented. Unfortunately the pro players can spend a lifetime pushing against their own mountain and unless they create cash flow for others all of their efforts are largely meaningless in the scheme of things. Many pool players don't seem to realize this and they shoot themselves and the sport in the foot by thinking all they should have to do is show up and win events to live happily ever after.
For the most part big event promoters seem to be as unrealistic as the players, they make big promises with good intentions but then find that real cashflow falls far short of projections. I believer few if any really planned to leave the players hung out to dry but when the cash isn't there it just isn't there. Been there and done that when I was racing short track cars. Regardless of what promoters promised they either had to cut purses sometimes or go under. It benefited nobody for them to go under although that happened time after time. Sometimes it was driver's and owner's associations that forced them under with demands they couldn't meet. There might be a lesson in that for the ABP.
I do very sincerely commend you for your efforts and wish you luck. I think the best hope for pool is to quit dreaming of overnight miracles and start building block by block from what is for all practical purposes ground level. it will take years to work but it would have taken years to work had we started in 1970 too. It is going to take long term vision to make professional pool successful, or so I believe.
Hu