There are so many threads about low-deflection shafts, maybe it's time to hear from the other side....
What are the advantages of high-deflection shafts?
- Thread starter Bob Callahan
- Start date
Any time that you are without your LD shaft and must shoot with a house cue or HD shaft, there will not be little adjustments needed.:thumbup:
A high-reflective shaft would be a good tool to shark you opponent with. Just as he was shooting, you could make light refract off of it into his eyes causing him to miss.
Also, a high-reflective shaft would be nifty to strap to the back of your bicycle when you ride at night so the drivers of cars can see you and not run over you.
A high-reflective shaft might come in handy for backpacking. If you got lost in the woods and search planes were looking for you, you could climb to the top of a mountain and wave the darn thing over your head like a mad monkey and maybe get yourself found.
Also, a high reflective shaft would be good...............what?................. a what kind of shaft???.......................Oh, a HIGH-DEFLECTIVE shaft!!!
Nevermind
!!!
Maniac
Also, a high-reflective shaft would be nifty to strap to the back of your bicycle when you ride at night so the drivers of cars can see you and not run over you.
A high-reflective shaft might come in handy for backpacking. If you got lost in the woods and search planes were looking for you, you could climb to the top of a mountain and wave the darn thing over your head like a mad monkey and maybe get yourself found.
Also, a high reflective shaft would be good...............what?................. a what kind of shaft???.......................Oh, a HIGH-DEFLECTIVE shaft!!!
Nevermind
!!!Maniac
Deflection is your friend in pocket billiards...... very much like the 'center of the table... you should learn to master all facets of the game.... including aiming with deflection.
On straight in shots, you can shift your bridge parallel to centerof the aiming line , go high inside english on the ball and not scratch.
On low def shafts, you'd scratch.
Btw, Tate is using the right term, squirt.
Shafts with high deflection actually have lower squirt.
Shafts with low deflection pushes the cueball more to the opposite of the english.
So, you really meant to say shafts with high cueball squirt.
On low def shafts, you'd scratch.
Btw, Tate is using the right term, squirt.
Shafts with high deflection actually have lower squirt.
Shafts with low deflection pushes the cueball more to the opposite of the english.
So, you really meant to say shafts with high cueball squirt.
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Say do huh?
High deflection shafts deflect more, but squirt less than LD shafts?
Maybe its a wording thing, but the idea of people buying LD shafts cause they gotta have more squirt ( which I take to mean travel off of the aim line do to deflection) is...well the exact oppisite intent.
I dunno, its late...maybe its hittin my eyes funny.
Edited to add: it seems sentence 4 in the above quote directly contradicts sentence two which is the sentence the had me confused. Perhaps just a typo I would think. Clarification needed (for me at least ) if not.
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I agree 100%..........but IMOP the problem lies in the idea that we learn generally on "non standard" equipment. Over time many things changed on the playing cues shaft by means of marketing and things like "comfort" for the stroke over performance benefits, some performance has also changed in regard to playing surfaces and such........such as the Meucci boom of old and the today trend of stiffer and more conical traited shafts with the augment of faster playing conditions.
When the players perdominately were stuck with the much higher friction cloth of a few decades ago or the felt thats still around, side spin and things like Gyroscopic Procession style shots were more necessary since the roll of the CB was hampered by the higher friction, you could spin her and the spin takes off where the roll never left off.
The reason IMOP that people have such a hard time adjusting to new or diff playing cues/shafts is the fact that just about everyone out there over does the quantity of english needed by a big margin..........they don't have the stroke so they make up for it by adding an extra 5 tips of draw lol.
Where as if you stayed and used english more to the core of the ball (like what is really mostly and generally necessary) then the % of difference in the aim characteristics of a cue/shaft for said tip offset would be LESS, so you could understand the quantity and adjust more efficiently.
You can't learn or know anything much of good about a cue if your always only using it in extreme ways using massive amounts of spin on everthing.
You are right as well about learning to aim with deflection, but we must first learn to aim with center and build off that.........not start at the gate applying english like you were a Literary Major
-Grey Ghost-
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most house cues that have the more conical style tapers like the dufferins shoot more like LD shafts than they do HD shafts, yes they have more than enough endmass in thier own right but the cue has tons of spine which helps it out alot in regards to "straightshootingness"
I don't use aftermarket LD, like some other makers I make my own characteristic Low Deflection shaft. If I had to choose b/t an old meucci and a not so beat to hell straight house cue with a good tip........I'm taking the housecue all day long.
The real problem is really when you get to the extremes on the HD and LD side, cues can be wayyyyy too stiff or wayyyyyy to whippy. It really takes an experienced player that has a decent idea of how they like to aim and an idea of how they should proceed with their equipment choice via a mixture of stiff/whip that suits the players needs and goals.
If I don't know the cue I'm about to use I would prefer it to have LD characteristics as the aim and compensation of aim given a set SIDE tip offset are less magnified. As I look at it as the center ball hit on a shot is your ZERO your CENTER......so how a cue applies english and has to compensate for squirt by means of aim adjustment are all based off that center ball shot as it doesn't deviate.
If using 1 tip side on two diff shafts showed differences of say 3 points off center and the other was 5 points off.........then logically it makes sense to use the item that is closer to true aim as that just gives your brain less to worry about in its shot making algorithm.
I think the question is not the advantage of a HD shaft (whatever that means...let's say stock), but the disadvantage of most of the LD shafts. We can generally agree on the advantages of LD shafts (consistency, more forgiving on applying extreme english); for me, LD shafts all "feel" dead to me. I can't stand the feedback (lack of it) and the noise they make when striking the ball. It's all relative with respect to accuracy and control; a good player will sight in whatever shaft they're playing with in a relatively short time. Plus, for me, putting any kind of masse/wrinkle or jumping with a full cue is much easier with a stock shaft.
I've personally seen beginners and intermediate players vastly improve their game with LD shafts, and to be sure a high number of top pros are using them, too. For me, the only time I really have to significantly adjust my aim point is when applying severe spin, especially on draw shots where I need to use parallel aiming and not just some BHE or on long distance cut shots. So I spend a little more time to practice those. Not knocking LD shafts, just not my cup of tea.
I've personally seen beginners and intermediate players vastly improve their game with LD shafts, and to be sure a high number of top pros are using them, too. For me, the only time I really have to significantly adjust my aim point is when applying severe spin, especially on draw shots where I need to use parallel aiming and not just some BHE or on long distance cut shots. So I spend a little more time to practice those. Not knocking LD shafts, just not my cup of tea.
I have and can play either, but I prefer playing what I know and what I own, so I play HD. LD definately has merits and I am experimenting with it on a new cue. . .so we'll see.
How does LD masse?
Also, basic production LD shafts don't feel good to me hit wise. That said, my player has a high deflection shaft and either I'm coded to be HD, or it is really LD in HD clothing. Ramblin on. . . .
How does LD masse?
Also, basic production LD shafts don't feel good to me hit wise. That said, my player has a high deflection shaft and either I'm coded to be HD, or it is really LD in HD clothing. Ramblin on. . . .
I quit playing for a number of years and when I came back I found a LD cue had me making more balls but as I have gotten my stroke back I find I can make just as many balls with my old HD cue and on the days when I am in good stroke I get more action on the cue ball with the old HD cue stick.
It is my opinion and I have a couple of good shooting friends who have agreed that it appears that a LD cue can help a beginner or intermediate player. And then among good players it depends on what they like the most.
It is my opinion and I have a couple of good shooting friends who have agreed that it appears that a LD cue can help a beginner or intermediate player. And then among good players it depends on what they like the most.
Lance Link
Banned
I have a player on my league team that shoots with the shaft that came with the cue. He told me he tried the Predator/OB1/Intimidator type shafts, but they didn't feel right (for him, anyway)...
He's currently leading the league in runouts. With the regular shaft.
I've started practicing with my original Dominiak shaft. I've noticed a difference. But I think a lot of this is subjective. In the end it's what the player feels comfortable with.
It would be interesting to hear from some cuemakers about this subject...
He's currently leading the league in runouts. With the regular shaft.
I've started practicing with my original Dominiak shaft. I've noticed a difference. But I think a lot of this is subjective. In the end it's what the player feels comfortable with.
It would be interesting to hear from some cuemakers about this subject...
To squirt, or not to squirt. That is the question.
Tis' nobler in the minds of men to suffer the ravages of squirt than the slings and arrows of outrageous deflection (with apologies to Mr. Shakespeare).
Remember that deflection refers to the (bending of) the shaft, where as squirt describes the action of the cue ball after being struck by the cue tip.
Tis' nobler in the minds of men to suffer the ravages of squirt than the slings and arrows of outrageous deflection (with apologies to Mr. Shakespeare).
Remember that deflection refers to the (bending of) the shaft, where as squirt describes the action of the cue ball after being struck by the cue tip.
I wasn't gonna make a serious post on this thread for fear of being flamed, but I'm a glutton for punishment.
Am I the only person in the world that really doesn't feel the need to "adjust" my aim when switching from standard to LD shafts (and vice-versa)?
You all can see from my sig line that I mostly use 314-2 shafts (and an OB Classic). I just started really playing pool seriously about 5 years ago. Like a lot of players, I stated out with a Cuetec. Then I went to a Lucasi and got a Z shaft for it (didn't care for the diameter). Eventually I got my Jacoby and ordered a 314-2 for it. The 12.75" diameter seems to be to my liking. I use this combo almost exclusively in leagues and tournaments.
The other night at 9-ball league I walk in the door, grab a house cue off the wall and BNR a rack of 9-ball. Just the other day after practicing at home with my Jacoby/314 combo, I put my cue away and grabbed a $27 Rage cue off the wall rack and BNR another rack. No adjustments, just trusting where I was aiming. I don't let the aiming part of shooting pool "get into my head". I just relax and let my brain take over that facet of shooting. I mix and match cues during practice sessions all the time going from LD shafts to standard shafts, from leather to wrapless to linen wraps, from Triangle tips to Sniper to Moori tips, from cues 58" in length to a cue that is 61" in length. I don't CONSCIOUSLY make ANY adjustments. I just grab and shoot, with equal results. Now, I'm no world-beater, but on a good day I can shoot a little. IMHO, I feel like too much thought goes into the need for making an adjustment from shaft to shaft, cue to cue, etc.. But of course, this is solely based upon MY experiences.
Maniac
Am I the only person in the world that really doesn't feel the need to "adjust" my aim when switching from standard to LD shafts (and vice-versa)?
You all can see from my sig line that I mostly use 314-2 shafts (and an OB Classic). I just started really playing pool seriously about 5 years ago. Like a lot of players, I stated out with a Cuetec. Then I went to a Lucasi and got a Z shaft for it (didn't care for the diameter). Eventually I got my Jacoby and ordered a 314-2 for it. The 12.75" diameter seems to be to my liking. I use this combo almost exclusively in leagues and tournaments.
The other night at 9-ball league I walk in the door, grab a house cue off the wall and BNR a rack of 9-ball. Just the other day after practicing at home with my Jacoby/314 combo, I put my cue away and grabbed a $27 Rage cue off the wall rack and BNR another rack. No adjustments, just trusting where I was aiming. I don't let the aiming part of shooting pool "get into my head". I just relax and let my brain take over that facet of shooting. I mix and match cues during practice sessions all the time going from LD shafts to standard shafts, from leather to wrapless to linen wraps, from Triangle tips to Sniper to Moori tips, from cues 58" in length to a cue that is 61" in length. I don't CONSCIOUSLY make ANY adjustments. I just grab and shoot, with equal results. Now, I'm no world-beater, but on a good day I can shoot a little. IMHO, I feel like too much thought goes into the need for making an adjustment from shaft to shaft, cue to cue, etc.. But of course, this is solely based upon MY experiences.
Maniac
From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefonz
from personal experience, i like the way standard shafts feel, more solid and much easier to control "simple" positional shots, stunning out one or two rails, controlling the amount of english to stay on either side of an object ball, even punching the cueball forward or sideways varying distances. for regular speed shots where deflection doesn't really play a huge role, and which is the speed that you play most shots, you'll want to pay close attention to the amount of throw that you get when applying english, you may find it difficult to get fine control over your cueball trajectory off the object ball due to the greater amount of english that most LD cues apply, this really comes into play in humid conditions, or when the table and balls are dirty.
i guess to finalize, i find that i'm out of position more frequently with a LD shaft than with a standard one. i think it's great that LD shafts can let you load up a 1/4 ball back cut with so much reverse english and draw that it comes out three cushions, and you can make the ball do some crazy things fairly easily. but it's the "doing the little things well" that keeps me in position and out of trouble which keep me favoring standard shafts. 99% of the shots i play i'd rather use a regular shaft, the other 1% i wish i had a LD shaft.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingle
I agree with these thoughts. I also seem to have better CB contol with my standard shafts. Although, I still use my LD shafts sometimes. I find that when I'm not playing regularly I play at a higher level with LD shafts. But, when I'm playing regularly I play better with standard shafts. I have tracked my results of both with the Q-skill test and "99" and both confirm this. For me, there are certain shots that are more "makeable" with one shaft vs the other, but from a CB control standpoint the standard works much better for me on most shots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefonz
from personal experience, i like the way standard shafts feel, more solid and much easier to control "simple" positional shots, stunning out one or two rails, controlling the amount of english to stay on either side of an object ball, even punching the cueball forward or sideways varying distances. for regular speed shots where deflection doesn't really play a huge role, and which is the speed that you play most shots, you'll want to pay close attention to the amount of throw that you get when applying english, you may find it difficult to get fine control over your cueball trajectory off the object ball due to the greater amount of english that most LD cues apply, this really comes into play in humid conditions, or when the table and balls are dirty.
i guess to finalize, i find that i'm out of position more frequently with a LD shaft than with a standard one. i think it's great that LD shafts can let you load up a 1/4 ball back cut with so much reverse english and draw that it comes out three cushions, and you can make the ball do some crazy things fairly easily. but it's the "doing the little things well" that keeps me in position and out of trouble which keep me favoring standard shafts. 99% of the shots i play i'd rather use a regular shaft, the other 1% i wish i had a LD shaft.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jingle
I agree with these thoughts. I also seem to have better CB contol with my standard shafts. Although, I still use my LD shafts sometimes. I find that when I'm not playing regularly I play at a higher level with LD shafts. But, when I'm playing regularly I play better with standard shafts. I have tracked my results of both with the Q-skill test and "99" and both confirm this. For me, there are certain shots that are more "makeable" with one shaft vs the other, but from a CB control standpoint the standard works much better for me on most shots.
Hussa
the theme *deflection* can cause wars ....it s too funny how ppl getting in trouble while discussing about LD Shafts, Laminated shafts or non-laminated shafts. I was interested in how a laminated shaft *works* and played one for a longer time. The OB-1 felt ok, and it was really a big difference- but now i changed back to a non-laminated shaft. It s just that i prefer the *hit* (sound) and that i used to play with this kind of shaft for 15 or more years.
You can play with each shaft-but you have stay with it. It s too funny when i see ppl changing their shafts if they re missing some balls- this is very contra-productive.
To test shafts, new materials etc. is another thing. I like to test new materials in pool- but if you wanna be successful you have to decide and stay with your choice-is it ld or what ever.
Even here it s like always-keep it simple for you and keep it simple as possible to be more successful.
p.s. i just wrote a preview on another forum after receiving a new shaft from a friend- he s a real cue-a-holic and he already worked with some cuemakers here in germany. so i wrote a preview after playing with it- after i posted it the thread felt into a real sucking war, where a discussion exploded and some guys went really angry to each other...........
No matter which type of construction-just play what you like and prefer.
Just if you *just like* it for what reason ever it makes sense!
lg
Ingo
the theme *deflection* can cause wars ....it s too funny how ppl getting in trouble while discussing about LD Shafts, Laminated shafts or non-laminated shafts. I was interested in how a laminated shaft *works* and played one for a longer time. The OB-1 felt ok, and it was really a big difference- but now i changed back to a non-laminated shaft. It s just that i prefer the *hit* (sound) and that i used to play with this kind of shaft for 15 or more years.
You can play with each shaft-but you have stay with it. It s too funny when i see ppl changing their shafts if they re missing some balls- this is very contra-productive.
To test shafts, new materials etc. is another thing. I like to test new materials in pool- but if you wanna be successful you have to decide and stay with your choice-is it ld or what ever.
Even here it s like always-keep it simple for you and keep it simple as possible to be more successful.
p.s. i just wrote a preview on another forum after receiving a new shaft from a friend- he s a real cue-a-holic and he already worked with some cuemakers here in germany. so i wrote a preview after playing with it- after i posted it the thread felt into a real sucking war, where a discussion exploded and some guys went really angry to each other...........
No matter which type of construction-just play what you like and prefer.
Just if you *just like* it for what reason ever it makes sense!
lg
Ingo
HD vs. LD, % are in your favor with LD!
......WOW, Your the first person I've read on this subject, that has succinctly defined the paradigm involved here. Although, I might disagree about the ease of doing exaggerated things with the cue-ball with wood as opposed to hollow construction of LD, it's just a different way of accomplishing things and perhaps a more natural way with the LD, too!
At the outset, let me say, "nothing "FEELS" better than a solid wood shaft with an ivory ferrule!" Do you want to use Ivory as opposed to phenolic? A lot of people do, however, almost anyone today, knows, that phenolic plays better and your shot control percentages are better overall with the phenolic ferrule. The reason is the lack of squirt.
MORE adjustment to compensate for=MORE missed shots overall!
Low deflection does "feel" more NEUTRAL or dead in one way (it's due to the nature of what removing wood from the front end of the shaft does to the hit). However, there are aspects of that type of "FEEL" that become more sensitive to the connection of the tip on the cue-ball. Tips start to have more influence in the performance of that type of shaft, too. The real trick to the design of this type of Low deflection shaft, is making the shaft so that is has no hot-spots or places on the cue-ball where the English is exaggerated by the internal construction of the shaft. It should "feel" solid and place English on the cue-ball equally all the way around the hemisphere of the cue-ball. The "FEEL," of contact with the cue-ball should try to emulate the feel of a wooden shaft, only in it's evenness to respond to all portions of the cue-ball with an equal amount English being imparted to the cue-ball from the shaft. That can be summed up as the accuracy of the hit in transferring imparted English to the cue-ball.
The one thing that is certain is, this is a new frontier in cue development. I make a hollow front end loaded shaft myself, it does take time to learn it's advantages, but it's not unlike switching from a 5/16" x 14 piloted joint, to a 3/8"x11 flat faced joint cue! In about a month you start to reap the rewards of the transaction!
......WOW, Your the first person I've read on this subject, that has succinctly defined the paradigm involved here. Although, I might disagree about the ease of doing exaggerated things with the cue-ball with wood as opposed to hollow construction of LD, it's just a different way of accomplishing things and perhaps a more natural way with the LD, too!
At the outset, let me say, "nothing "FEELS" better than a solid wood shaft with an ivory ferrule!" Do you want to use Ivory as opposed to phenolic? A lot of people do, however, almost anyone today, knows, that phenolic plays better and your shot control percentages are better overall with the phenolic ferrule. The reason is the lack of squirt.
MORE adjustment to compensate for=MORE missed shots overall!
Low deflection does "feel" more NEUTRAL or dead in one way (it's due to the nature of what removing wood from the front end of the shaft does to the hit). However, there are aspects of that type of "FEEL" that become more sensitive to the connection of the tip on the cue-ball. Tips start to have more influence in the performance of that type of shaft, too. The real trick to the design of this type of Low deflection shaft, is making the shaft so that is has no hot-spots or places on the cue-ball where the English is exaggerated by the internal construction of the shaft. It should "feel" solid and place English on the cue-ball equally all the way around the hemisphere of the cue-ball. The "FEEL," of contact with the cue-ball should try to emulate the feel of a wooden shaft, only in it's evenness to respond to all portions of the cue-ball with an equal amount English being imparted to the cue-ball from the shaft. That can be summed up as the accuracy of the hit in transferring imparted English to the cue-ball.
The one thing that is certain is, this is a new frontier in cue development. I make a hollow front end loaded shaft myself, it does take time to learn it's advantages, but it's not unlike switching from a 5/16" x 14 piloted joint, to a 3/8"x11 flat faced joint cue! In about a month you start to reap the rewards of the transaction!