What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

[Patrick Johnson]

...up the speed just a bit, and you'll find you're no longer hitting the object ball at all. Boost the stroke speed to firm and you'll miss the object ball by a lot. Shoot break speed and no way you'll hit that object ball.

We know that this happens; the question is why? We also know that what we think of as squirt is really composed of two factors: squirt and swerve, so it's a given that we have to consider both in this question.

We tend to think of swerve as a minor factor, but it plays a bigger role than you might think, especially on the not-new cloth most of us play on. In fact, there are many shots for which swerve has a greater effect than squirt - you have to adjust your aim backwards (try hard follow with side spin off the rail).

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

Do you by any chance know what the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of the cue when shooting a perfect lag shot on a fast 9 foot table might be?

Well, I haven't measured it (no radar gun), but I do have a program which calculates it. It does take into account such things as distance travelled before natural roll sets in (where you get a switch from sliding friction to rolling resistance), and the amount of residual topspin remaining after hitting a cushion. It assumes that the cushion spits the ball back at 75% of its incoming speed, which is based on measurements taken from some of Dr. Dave's high speed videos. The cushion treatment is not very sophisticated though, but given the different conditions on different tables, I think (hope) it's reasonably accurate, all things considered.

So, for a perfect lag beginning right on the head string on a 9' table with 100 speed cloth, and with no topspin or draw, it reports a starting speed of 4.4 mph should do it. To make it come to rest on the third rail instead, 8.6 mph. To get it to the forth rail, 13.0 mph, and the fifth, 19.0. To go just 4 diamonds (again, 9' table), about 1.5 mph is required.

At the higher speeds, the fact the cueball is in the air on the way to the first cushion an appreciable part of time should alter these numbers a bit, but the program doesn't account for this. Nor does it calculate air drag.

Jim

 

[Flex]

We know that this happens; the question is why? We also know that what we think of as squirt is really composed of two factors: squirt and swerve, so it's a given that we have to consider both in this question.

We tend to think of swerve as a minor factor, but it plays a bigger role than you might think, especially on the not-new cloth most of us play on. In fact, there are many shots for which swerve has a greater effect than squirt - you have to adjust your aim backwards (try hard follow with side spin off the rail).

pj
chgo

The why of the squirt/swerve effects is for someone with greater physics knowledge than I possess to explain; I just know that what I've described always occurs. Knowing that, the key is to hone one's aim, speed and accuracy of stroke to accurately compensate for the squirt, obviously taking into account any swerve that may occur, which can be very tricky, especially on really slow cloth. Another thing that can complicate getting good results are the balls in use. Dirty, clingy balls will make compensation for these factors tougher. C'est la vie.

Flex

 

[mikepage]

While Patrick may not play one pocket at the same speed as Billy Incardona, you can be sure that he does his homework as a wannabee pool scientist and is technically right in almost everything he says.

I like what Pat said about swerve possibly being the reason why it appears that a firm stroke squirts the cue more. (maybe he didn't say that but that's what i interpreted) Many players do not think much about swerve although they use it quite frequently to "swerve" the cue ball minutely around object balls. The natural downward stroke imparts a slight swerve to the cue ball especially at slower speeds. With a fast stroke and the swerve does not have as good a chance for it to take effect, so when you are shooting at a ball with inside spin the cue ball is going to swerve some at low to medium speeds. All good pool players already know this whether instinctively or by text book. In the past, I didn't think much about swerve except when I needed it to swerve around a ball and pocket an object ball but I just called it curving the cue ball.

I really don't know when a swerve becomes a masse but of course the masse has to be considered a major swerve.

Anyway, if you shoot the cue ball with inside spin at a fast rate of speed you will not get much swerve. Swerve counteracts squirt so if you have less swerve the cue ball will look like it squirts more. And so if you shoot with a medium stroke with a slight downward strike on the cue ball (which is very natural most of the time) the cue ball will swerve more than if you strike it with a fast stroke, therefore it will look like the cue ball did not squirt as much. Squirt sends the cue ball one direction and swerve pulls the cue ball in the opposite direction. (just trying to clarify swerve and squirt a little more as I have come to know it).

I may have not explained this well enough but that's my two cents on it and I'm sticking to it until Pat tells me different.

JoeyA

Keep it up, and you're going to be carrying that signature briefcase around Joey. Nice explanation.

 

[Flex]

Well, I haven't measured it (no radar gun), but I do have a program which calculates it. It does take into account such things as distance travelled before natural roll sets in (where you get a switch from sliding friction to rolling resistance), and the amount of residual topspin remaining after hitting a cushion. It assumes that the cushion spits the ball back at 75% of its incoming speed, which is based on measurements taken from some of Dr. Dave's high speed videos. The cushion treatment is not very sophisticated though, but given the different conditions on different tables, I think (hope) it's reasonably accurate, all things considered.

So, for a perfect lag beginning right on the head string on a 9' table with 100 speed cloth, and with no topspin or draw, it reports a starting speed of 4.4 mph should do it. To make it come to rest on the third rail instead, 8.6 mph. To get it to the forth rail, 13.0 mph, and the fifth, 19.0. To go just 4 diamonds (again, 9' table), about 1.5 mph is required.

At the higher speeds, the fact the cueball is in the air on the way to the first cushion an appreciable part of time should alter these numbers a bit, but the program doesn't account for this. Nor does it calculate air drag.

Jim

Thank you very much for that information. Going from the 1.5 mph speeds up through lag speed, approximately 4.4 mph, will definitely produce different amounts of apparent cue ball squirt, which can be very noticeable the further off the vertical axis one goes. Up that to the 9 mph that Predator used for some of their calculations and things change even more. Really thwack the cue ball and things get even dicier.

This is definitely not something that is easy to compensate for.

As Billy said, one mistake can cost not only a game, but a match or a tournament.

I buy that.

Flex

 

[JoeyA]

We know that this happens; the question is why? We also know that what we think of as squirt is really composed of two factors: squirt and swerve, so it's a given that we have to consider both in this question.

We tend to think of swerve as a minor factor, but it plays a bigger role than you might think, especially on the not-new cloth most of us play on. In fact, there are many shots for which swerve has a greater effect than squirt - you have to adjust your aim backwards (try hard follow with side spin off the rail).

pj
chgo

Several years ago, I was playing fairly well in a Seniors Nine Ball tournament and Buddy Hall was schooling me after sharking me the day before with some raucous laughter. I lost my match to Claude Bernatchez and I guess he felt sorry for me. Anyway I was playing fairly well and Buddy had gotten up early the next morning as I did and I was practicing like a demon and he showed me a couple of shots. ONe shot was the object ball a half inch off the foot rail on the middle diamond

CueTable Help

The cue ball was behind the head string and he said, "Now I want you to forget about squirt and anything else you have ever heard, and I want you to shoot that nine ball in with low left English but just aim the cue ball at the proper contact point and let it fly. Don't adjust for any squirt." I did and on the first shot I threw the nine ball into the pocket. Second shot, same result. Third shot, same result. I looked at Buddy like the master he is and was speechless. He smiled knowingly and we didn't talk anymore about that shot and went on to other pleasantries. I came back home to my old cloth tables and tried the same shot and I couldn't make the shot nearly as consistently as I was at the tournament site WHERE THEY HAD NEW CLOTH. I had a relatively thin shaft and the new cloth combined with a fairly quick stroke allowed me to aim directly at the contact point and pot the ball. It bothered me for a while that I could not duplicate the same results without the master being there. It was then that I began to empathize with the HOULIGANS.

While I learned how to play pool on the green felt by putting in countless hours of practice, I also learned many critical things in the classroom of RSB from people who were more academically inclined to understand what was truly happenng out there on the field of green. If I had spent more time in the classroom at an earlier age, I could have become a better player, faster. Swerve was just one of many important lessons learned. Thanks Pat, Mike and Ron. FTR, sometimes it can be a little uncomfortable listening to an academically inclinded player who doesn't play as well as you (it's sometimes hard to believe that someone who doesn't play as well as you might know more than you ), especially if he gets to talking like he is in a Calculus classroom but if you just wait long enough, some of it will sink in and you'll be the better player for it.

Besides, understanding what is truly taking place can make the game far more enjoyable. JoeyA

We've got some new cloth on a few tables at Buffalo's and I can't wait to test out the OB1 shaft with my signature cut shot. NOTE TO SELF: Remember to discount the swerve somewhat on the new cloth.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

This is my 2cents.

Instead of figuring out how much squirt, swerve, and what not, or how much to compensate just try "experiencing" the shot.

Which means lots of practice.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why not do both? Thinking doesn't make practice illegal.

pj
chgo

 

[unknownpro]

I believe your right,atleast that's the way i've been playing for over 45 years with fairly good results.Just imagine if we were wrong how much we could improve our games with a minor adjustment.

I think you just figured out why Efren beats everyone. It did improve my game immensely. I play for constant 1/2 ball width deflection on nearly every shot with straight side english and attempt to eliminate curve. No matter the distance or speed. Translating to high and low side english you deflect the cueball by an amount determined by where the tip comes off the cueball if you moved it all the way toward the edge on the line from center. So low left would be 1/4 ball.

A shot with no english is a hit. A shot with english is a throw shot, as in the stick throws the cueball. If it didn't throw the cueball you would miscue and then see real deflection.

unknownpro

 

[JoeyA]

I think you just figured out why Efren beats everyone. It did improve my game immensely. I play for constant 1/2 ball width deflection on nearly every shot with straight side english and attempt to eliminate curve. No matter the distance or speed. Translating to high and low side english you deflect the cueball by an amount determined by where the tip comes off the cueball if you moved it all the way toward the edge on the line from center. So low left would be 1/4 ball.

A shot with no english is a hit. A shot with english is a throw shot, as in the stick throws the cueball. If it didn't throw the cueball you would miscue and then see real deflection.

unknownpro

I liked the finite way you described adjusting for squirt. If you don't mind, what is the type of shaft, taper and size of shaft that you play with?

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Why not do both? Thinking doesn't make practice illegal.

pj
chgo

But it's not a must. As your game progresses your body and eyes will start to memorize ball positions because you will see those kind of shot over and over (unless you really have no grasp of "cause-and-effect"). Pocketing a ball must become a second nature to the player, so most of the thinking has to go to solving the layout and cue ball positioning.

 

[Jal]

Thank you very much for that information. Going from the 1.5 mph speeds up through lag speed, approximately 4.4 mph, will definitely produce different amounts of apparent cue ball squirt, which can be very noticeable the further off the vertical axis one goes. Up that to the 9 mph that Predator used for some of their calculations and things change even more. Really thwack the cue ball and things get even dicier.

This is definitely not something that is easy to compensate for.

As Billy said, one mistake can cost not only a game, but a match or a tournament.

I buy that.

Flex

You're very welcome. As you say, "apparent squirt", which is equal to intrinsic squirt + swerve, does change quite a bit with speed. And as your example very nicely showed, it is apparent or net squirt that makes or breaks a shot. But intrinsic squirt probably doesn't change much at all, in any practical sense.

I wish someone with influence would invent a term for 'squirt + swerve' so as to avoid confusion when players use the word "squirt". We've probably had a dozen or more posts here just trying to sort this out.

Jim

 

[JoeyA]

You're very welcome. As you say, "apparent squirt", which is equal to intrinsic squirt + swerve, does change quite a bit with speed. And as your example very nicely showed, it is apparent or net squirt that makes or breaks a shot. But intrinsic squirt probably doesn't change much at all, in any practical sense.

I wish someone with influence would invent a term for 'squirt + swerve' so as to avoid confusion when players use the word "squirt". We've probably had a dozen or more posts here just trying to sort this out.

Jim

First players need to know what swerve is, then you can introduce SQUERVE: Squirt + Swerve.

 

[Flex]

Maybe not related exactly to what has been discussed so far, but here are two columns about what some might consider different strokes.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-11.pdf

My own feeling is that one standard way of hitting the cue ball fits 99% of the shots at pool. If there are specific shots that require special techniques (that aren't covered in the articles above), I'd like to hear about them. Especially, I'd like to hear about shots that cannot be made with the standard "straight through the cue ball without the elbow moving much" shot. And there are such shots.

Thanks, Bob, for those articles. I definitely learned a few new shots/strokes reading your explanations. That one with the palm heel bump is very creative.

Rep to you.

Flex

 

[JoeyA]

A wrist turn is a way to impart English while hitting the center of the cueball, you just turn your wrist left or right depending on what English you want. The more you turn your wrist the more English imparted.

You can use it in banking instead of using normal english. You can also make balls that don't quite go (the same way you can do it with english on the cueball) the advantage being you can hit center ball so it is easier to aim.

Some use it all the time because you don't need to compensate for throw or squirt. If you watch for it you will see some top pros using it regularly.

Just turn your wrist as you stroke and see the result.

I haven't been to the table but I air tested it and it appears that it is similar if not the same thing as "pivot English". THANKS. I appreciate you sharing that info and will try it on the table tonight.
Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[MastersMaster]

If I am not mistaken, I think what Incardona said and what Chris summarized, is that the various strokes needed are all derived from the one standard stroke used. Better players just vary the actual stroke slightly for certain situations.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Why not do both? Thinking doesn't make practice illegal.

crosseyedjoe:
But it's not a must. As your game progresses your body and eyes will start to memorize ball positions because you will see those kind of shot over and over (unless your really has no grasp of "cause-and-effect"). Pocketing a ball must become a second nature to the player, so most of the thinking has to go to solving the layout and cue ball positioning.

To quote you: it's not a must. In fact, thinking speeds up the learning process and teaches you more, including the stuff you learn "by feel". The idea that there's such a thing as "too much thinking" in the learning process is just misguided. However, it *may* be best to go on autopilot when you're competing.

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

First players need to know what swerve is, then you can introduce SQUERVE: Squirt + Swerve.

I was thinking of something like "drift", but "squerve" is much, much better. Not that anyone will listen to me, but I think I'll try to use it whenever possible. Great idea!

Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well, I haven't measured it (no radar gun), but I do have a program which calculates it. It does take into account such things as distance travelled before natural roll sets in (where you get a switch from sliding friction to rolling resistance), and the amount of residual topspin remaining after hitting a cushion. It assumes that the cushion spits the ball back at 75% of its incoming speed, which is based on measurements taken from some of Dr. Dave's high speed videos. ...

I think the reduction in speed (from rolling ball in to rolling ball out) is closer to 53%. This means that a cue ball loses about almost 75% of its energy in the bounce-off-the-cushion process. For details see the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-12.pdf

 

[Mr Hoppe]

In case you're interested, I have the Monk's 101 2 DVD set for sale. It's brand new and never opened, and he explains some of this stuff. Here's the link:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=825930#post825930