What cue stroke are you using?

[Neil]

Okay, I will admit that perhaps I overstated a bit by saying, 'if not everyone'.

But the point of the 'discussion' is not for a side to side comparison as your proposition suggests. The discussion is in regards to the vertical direction because in a true complete pendulum the cue is 'rocking' with the butt going up, down, & up while the tip arcs down, up, & back down.

My point was that one does not have to watch the cue move to make a piston like stroke as Sean was suggesting & that almost anyone can make their piston like stroke with their eyes closed.

So no bet on that. One can have a 'hook' flaw in their 'pendulum' stroke & one can have a 'hook' flaw in their piston stroke.

But why all of the diversion. Just explain in no uncertain terms how the cue moves straight for several inches with no up or down movement in a fixed elbow stroke.

Do that & this 'discussion' is ended & as I have stated several times my opinion of a fixed elbow stroke will probably be changed for the better.

So here is my counter. Let me see a super slow motion of you doing a complete fixed elbow stroke where the elbow does not move & the cue tip moves straight with no up or down arcing for several inches. Then if you would be so kind please explain what bio-mechanics allowed you to accomplish it.

Best Wishes,
Rick

HisBoyElroy, and any others that think that Rick is reasonable, being unfairly picked on, ect...... please read the quote above. Notice that Rick makes a statement in a previous post, gets called on it, backpedals about it while admitting he was wrong, then makes the same statement again!

Then, notice the part in red. Rick has been saying this since he got on here. When he first got here, Scott Lee corrected some advice that Rick gave to someone that was wrong. Rick took umbrage to it, as he always does, and twisted what Scott said and condemned him for it in no uncertain terms. Naturally, Scott wasn't going to debate with him, and wrote him off as just another guy that thinks he knows what he is doing, doesn't, and doesn't care about knowing the right way about something.

Since then, Rick has been on a vendetta to go against every instructor on here with the exception of Fran (who one time gave Rick a compliment, and since he gets so few in life, he sided right up with her and anything she says, friends for life from one so-so compliment) and CJ (same thing as Fran. Rick even swears by TOI even though he can't get it to work for him to save his life)

The entire point of him starting this poll in the first place was soley to hopefully give him some ammo by pointing out that less people use the pendulum stroke, so it shows that instructors teach bad info. He even stated that very fact in this thread. When I called him on it, he then twisted the results of the actual poll to suit his needs, saying that using a pendulum variation doesn't count as a pendulum stroke at all.

Now, look at the part of his quote that is in red. I have provided the info he has asked for. (not the first time by me or others on here by a long shot). He claims to also want the "bio-mechanics" of it. That, as he openly admitted, I and others have provided in the past to him.

So, with the info he asked, I am asking him to stand by his word and stop posting about it. He now has his required proof. He has nothing to stand on anymore, his questions have been answered once again. Now, since he hasn't stopped on this subject, you tell me where the "reasonableness" is in his postings??

 

[BeiberLvr]

Bumped for Jon.

For fun, I'll reply to this portion.

"In your hypothetical, the results would be identical ONLY IF both tips hit the cue ball on the exact same spot with the cue on the exact same angle AND ONLY IF they both travel through contact with the ball on the EXACT same path. In other words the cue must be at the exact same angle when it makes contact with the ball & must travel on the exact same path through contact for the results to be 'identical'

Everything you just said is exactly what I proposed in that thread with the exception of the bolded.

The cue paths will be different after contact, but as I've mentioned numerous times, will make no difference. It doesn't matter if you drop your elbow after contact and follow straight through, or don't.

You do understand that I can make that statement, because of the actual evidence that exists, right?

 

[BeiberLvr]

Now Jon wants me to prove that the tip stays in contact longer with a piston stroke vs a pendulum stroke. Who ever said that, not me.

Let's do a little recap for all the fine readers out there.

- I (and people that actually know a thing or two about pool physics) have said that the CB only knows location of the hit, and the speed of the hit. If two players hit the CB in the exact same spot and at the exact same speed, then the results would be identical. Regardless of the type of stroke used.

- You disagreed. Something to the tune of the piston stroke is more level after contact.


So yes, Rick. You did say that.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Let's do a little recap for all the fine readers out there.

- I (and people that actually know a thing or two about pool physics) have said that the CB only knows location of the hit, and the speed of the hit. If two players hit the CB in the exact same spot and at the exact same speed, then the results would be identical. Regardless of the type of stroke used.

- You disagreed. Something to the tune of the piston stroke is more level after contact.


So yes, Rick. You did say that.

Which implies that the cue tip is pushing the ball through the stoke and is on the ball for a long period of time.

Of course as he commonly does he will state that he never said that. He can use innuendo with the best of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Which implies that the cue tip is pushing the ball through the stoke and is on the ball for a long period of time.

Of course as he commonly does he will state that he never said that. He can use innuendo with the best of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

Exactly. To be fair to Rick, I've only asked him to prove it.

It can't be that hard, right? It would be awesome if Dr. Dave or Slomoholic would offer the use of their high speed camera. Then get a few players that are proficient with the piston stroke, and do some recording.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Wow! Hey Rick- hang in there dude! You have my sympathy with this bombardment of unjust ,unwarranted, and ignorant attacks. I happen to use the pure pendulum stroke exclusively, but if you or others have different ideas I want to hear them and you were doing a pretty good job managing an intelligent discussion before they started circling your wagon. Even if I disagree with you, what works for me might not work for you and visa versa. So your not a big fan of traditional instruction in some ways. IMO you seem to provide very good reasons for this point of view and your detractors don't seem to want to approach these issues with reason. They're just stuck in their ways. They also seem to attack your character. Since when is reasonableness a character fault? When the person who is attacking possesses none of it and is jealous of a person who does.
Don't pay any attention to Mahna Mahna. That post was just plain asinine. As I said, I use the pendulum stroke exclusively. I'm not an authority on the alternatives. That's why I didn't chime in with any opinions. If I was an authority and If I disagreed with you strongly, you seem, as apposed to your detractors, to be a guy willing to listen to opposing opinions with respect as long as the other guy is of the same mindset and I'm sure we would have nice debate that people could learn from. I was learning a few things for a while. Unfortunately, because of your detractors, it was just for a while.[/QUOTE

'Elroy',

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.

Can you imagine what I would get if I had said what you just said?

Like I have said to them, the readership on AZB is not a bunch of simpletons. The readership can see & make their own determinations. The silent majority on AZB is HUGE in comparison to those that post & even much larger in comparison to those that post regularly.

I am very glad that you have spoken your mind. I wish more would have the courage to do so instead of being brow beaten into silence. I'm glad that CJ Wiley has the gumption & where with all to fade the crap. How many pros have been chased from AZB?

Be prepared for an 'attack' because of what you have said. If you can hang in there & fade it, then perhaps I won't feel so much like the Lone Ranger. Mike has stood up. I'd rather he or someone else be the Lone Ranger & just let me Tonto. Better yet, perhaps a band of ''Rangers' could form & stand up for truth, justice, & the American way. Oooops, That's Superman. Well, you get my point.

I'll stop here because if not I might say something that will send me off into the sunset.

Thanks again. I really appreciate you sentiments, effort, & courage to speak your mind in the face of what might come your way.

All the of the Best of Everything to You,
Rick

PS If there is anything that I can do to help you just ask. Probably a PM would be advisable.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I use a pendulum stroke and always have. I do have friend who warms up that way but his last stroke he drops the shoulder or does something different and he admits it but cant seem to stop it and it gives him trouble. I will stick to my routine.

Robin,

If it's working & performing well & you're happy with the results, why would anyone change. As for your friend, It's like Rufus said, it is not for everyone. Some might try to make it fit him instead of helping him to find what does fit him. If I wanted to learn to play piano I would not go to a music teacher that only teaches drums. But I might go to a drum teacher that also teaches piano. I'm sure you can see my point,

Thanks for your input.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Neil]

Robin,

If it's working & performing well & you're happy with the results, why would anyone change. As for your friend, It's like Rufus said, it is not for everyone. Some might try to make it fit him instead of helping him to find what does fit him. If I wanted to learn to play piano I would not go to a music teacher that only teaches drums. But I might go to a drum teacher that also teaches piano. I'm sure you can see my point,

Thanks for your input.

Best Wishes,
Rick

There you go implying again that instructors only teach the pendulum stroke. Just another case of you talking about that which you know nothing of.

 

[ENGLISH!]

For fun, I'll reply to this portion.



Everything you just said is exactly what I proposed in that thread with the exception of the bolded.

The cue paths will be different after contact, but as I've mentioned numerous times, will make no difference. It doesn't matter if you drop your elbow after contact and follow straight through, or don't.

You do understand that I can make that statement, because of the actual evidence that exists, right?

At least you are being honest THIS time & stating that it is just for fun. Well I'm tired of wasting my time to entertain you. But ONE LAST TIME!

You can make any statement you wish.

Just like the scientist of their time could go around saying that the world was flat & the Universe revolved around it. Is that your point? In your mind, you can ONLY say that because there is SOMETHING to support your statement.

I don't know. Did they burn anyone in those old days that said that world was round & that it revolved around the Sun or did many just keep it to themselves for fear of being burned or thrown in prison.

Because of the Kool Aide you now want to differentiate between AFTER contact & DURING contact.

At least you saw the difference in your second reading.

I no longer have any inclination to converse with you. So, answer this simple question to yourself since you would not answer it to me several times.

Would you rather try to hit a ball sitting on a child's tee ball 'platform' by throwing another ball straight at it or by throwing a curve ball? Now apply that to hitting an EXACT 3 millimeter circle on a round ball PRECISELY with a 12 mm tip on the end of a STRAIGHT stick.

Now also keep in mind your new found phrase of 'path through contact' while you ponder the 'child's play' above.

Have a nice day & the rest of your life but my time left is too short to waste any of it on you.

PS I hope you have FUN with my reply.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Let's do a little recap for all the fine readers out there.

- I (and people that actually know a thing or two about pool physics) have said that the CB only knows location of the hit, and the speed of the hit. If two players hit the CB in the exact same spot and at the exact same speed, then the results would be identical. Regardless of the type of stroke used.

- You disagreed. Something to the tune of the piston stroke is more level after contact.


So yes, Rick. You did say that.

This post is totally useless & makes no sense. But like Tony you quote one statement out of context & try to make it something that it is not.

It must be a tactic learned in 'pool school'.

 

[Ghosst]

Go ahead and post yours if you don't mind.

I tried last night but the hall was packed so there was no room for a camera. I'll go down this afternoon when it's quieter.

 

[Neil]

At least you are being honest THIS time & stating that it is just for fun. Well I'm tired of wasting my time to entertain you. But ONE LAST TIME!

You can make any statement you wish.

Just like the scientist of their time could go around saying that the world was flat & the Universe revolved around it. Is that your point? In your mind, you can ONLY say that because there is SOMETHING to support your statement.

I don't know. Did they burn anyone in those old days that said that world was round & that it revolved around the Sun or did many just keep it to themselves for fear of being burned or thrown in prison.

Because of the Kool Aide you now want to differentiate between AFTER contact & DURING contact.

At least you saw the difference in your second reading.

I no longer have any inclination to converse with you. So, answer this simple question to yourself since you would not answer it to me several times.

Would you rather try to hit a ball sitting on a child's tee ball 'platform' by throwing another ball straight at it or by throwing a curve ball? Now apply that to hitting an EXACT 3 millimeter circle on a round ball PRECISELY with a 12 mm tip on the end of a STRAIGHT stick.

Now also keep in mind your new found phrase of 'path through contact' while you ponder the 'child's play' above.

Have a nice day & the rest of your life but my time left is too short to waste any of it on you.

PS I hope you have FUN with my reply.

Keep it up Rick, you are making quite the fool of yourself showing everyone just how ignorant you are on this subject.

 

[sfleinen]

Keep it up Rick, you are making quite the fool of yourself showing everyone just how ignorant you are on this subject.

Oh my gosh. Here we go again with the "I'm in the same boat as those that wanted to prove the world is round when everyone says the world is flat" megalomania.

-Sean <-- applies face-palm so hard, you hear the smack sound

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Keep it up Rick, you are making quite the fool of yourself showing everyone just how ignorant you are on this subject.

Hey Rick I know we are on ignore, but you do peek. Take a look at Neil's video he made for you. Case closed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Exactly. To be fair to Rick, I've only asked him to prove it.

It can't be that hard, right? It would be awesome if Dr. Dave or Slomoholic would offer the use of their high speed camera. Then get a few players that are proficient with the piston stroke, and do some recording.

I have never said that the cue tip stays in contact with the cue ball longer if hit with a straight traveling tip vs one that was arcing.

But with this faction, twists & distortions to imply false statements as a means to discredit is a common practice.

AND what does contact time have to do with whether or not there is several inches of straight/'level' tip travel in a fixed elbow stroke as randyg asserted?

I'll tell you what. NOTHING! It is merely an attempt at diversion.

'Elroy' has real eyes & can see. I'm sure he is not the only one.

This thread had been totally derailed & ruined for people with open minds like Mike, 'Elroy", & others by Sean, Neil, Tony, & now Jon.

Mr. Wilson may as well closed this one too even though I did not bring this subject here.

It was merely a poll to garner a proportional depiction of what stroke those on AZB utilize.

 

[Neil]

Oh my gosh. Here we go again with the "I'm in the same boat as those that wanted to prove the world is round when everyone says the world is flat" megalomania.

-Sean <-- applies face-palm so hard, you hear the smack sound

The funny part is, is that he has the truth in front of him, but rather than actually face it, he hides his face in the sand like an ostrich so he doesn't have to look at it and can keep denying it. When confronted with the truth, he put us on ignore.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Yeah, he is Tonto too.

Personally I think he is more like Don Quixote preferring the glory of fantasy over reality.

Oh my gosh. Here we go again with the "I'm in the same boat as those that wanted to prove the world is round when everyone says the world is flat" megalomania.

-Sean <-- applies face-palm so hard, you hear the smack sound

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[sfleinen]

The funny part is, is that he has the truth in front of him, but rather than actually face it, he hides his face in the sand like an ostrich so he doesn't have to look at it and can keep denying it. When confronted with the truth, he put us on ignore.

Yeah, he is Tonto too.

Personally I think he is more like Don Quixote preferring the glory of fantasy over reality.

Remember guys, the most important feature on a new car is the rear window wiper. A car absolutely MUST have a rear window wiper, otherwise it's not a car. OMG, I have to write the automaker's guild and demand they stop putting cars without rear window wipers into the market. This crap has to stop -- a car without a rear window wiper is absolutely USELESS!


-Sean

 

[Neil]

I have never said that the cue tip stays in contact with the cue ball longer if hit with a straight traveling tip vs one that was arcing.

But with this faction, twists & distortions to imply false statements as a means to discredit is a common practice.

AND what does contact time have to do with whether or not there is several inches of straight/'level' tip travel in a fixed elbow stroke as randyg asserted?

I'll tell you what. NOTHING! It is merely an attempt at diversion.

'Elroy' has real eyes & can see. I'm sure he is not the only one.

This thread had been totally derailed & ruined for people with open minds like Mike, 'Elroy", & others by Sean, Neil, Tony, & now Jon.

Mr. Wilson may as well closed this one too even though I did not bring this subject here.

It was merely a poll to garner a proportional depiction of what stroke those on AZB utilize.

When are you going to stop playing the part of "victim", and admit that Randy's assertion and my assertion has been proven to you? How long must you pull out the B.S card to try and look like you know what you are talking about? You have stated that you would stop when given the proof. That turned out to be a lie. You say we derailed this thread, it's about the pendulum stroke, that is all we have talked about except for the other points of the stroke that you initially brought up. So, that is another lie on your part. You say we distort things, another lie. When are you going to "man up" to the truth? You keep trying to pull the "Christianity" card on me. When are you going to own up to it?? You have recently had numerous people tell you that you are way out in left field, one or two agree with you. Yet, you feel it's wise to mock and insult the many that tell you that you are wrong, and feel justified by the one that agrees with you. How do you not see a problem there, Rick? OPEN YOUR EYES for one time, at least! You are wrong, been proven wrong, admit it like a man and stop with your petty insults.

 

[Ghosst]

Here's the pendulum stroke- elbow does not move, or moves very little https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIW3zwmeYo

and the "J" stroke- pendulum until contact with the cb, then the elbow drops for the follow-through https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7EBLjgC8Aw&feature=youtu.be

and the piston stroke- elbow drops to keep the cue level https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2eargj1f5c&feature=youtu.be (had a tough time doing this one. Took four tries just to get that bad of one.[and this is the best of the four] I found it extremely difficult to drop my elbow due to training not to, and due to the short shot.

I'm reposting these links so you can see them Rick, any thoughts? I still want to see you post your own as well. I'll add mine later today.