what do you expect from custom cue builders
- Thread starter Texas Carom Club
- Start date
a cue maker worth his salt should be able to hit all above marks....HOWEVER WE HAVE A FEW CUE ASSEMBLERS WHO CAN'T GET HALF RIGHT....
I see your from Houston also....if it was a local maker....I can understand how it happend...I have a local cue maker. That has a cue of mine being held hostage over 4 years for a refinish only and it WAS PAID IN FULL UPFRONT...NOW THERE ARE A FEW GOOD ONES.,BUT SURE SEEMS THE BADS OUT WEIGHT THE GOOD....HE'LL IT COULD BE LONGER THAN 4 years so long I can't really remember....I guess he needed he money more than I needed the cue..
I see your from Houston also....if it was a local maker....I can understand how it happend...I have a local cue maker. That has a cue of mine being held hostage over 4 years for a refinish only and it WAS PAID IN FULL UPFRONT...NOW THERE ARE A FEW GOOD ONES.,BUT SURE SEEMS THE BADS OUT WEIGHT THE GOOD....HE'LL IT COULD BE LONGER THAN 4 years so long I can't really remember....I guess he needed he money more than I needed the cue..
one of em was local
the one that wiffed on the stain and linen
and weight
Yes, you should get exactly what you paid for with reasonable allowances for variance on things, particularly on things where it is difficult or impossible to be exact. Some examples would be the weight of the cue where I think having a 1/2 oz window they have to hit is reasonable (within a 1/4 oz on either side of your requested weight), but make sure you specify how close it has to be to your requested weight for you to be willing to accept it. Another example would be say the shade of cocobolo being a bit lighter or darker than you hoped.
Unless you expressly gave them the liberty to make certain decisions, the cue maker should not change anything--anything--from what you requested without asking you first if it is ok. If they do, it is on them. IMO if a cue is not exactly what you requested (save for the minor variances or possibly some minor gray areas that were never discussed) then the cue maker should have to immediately correct it at his expense including all the shipping costs or they should immediately refund your money as well as cover the return shipping costs upon receiving the cue back from you if you choose a refund instead.
If you got regular maple instead of the stained maple you requested, they need to fix it totally at their own expense including all the resultant shipping costs, or refund 100% of your money and cover the return shipping costs when you send back the cue and ask for a refund.
If you asked for black linen and got black with white specs, they need to fix it totally at their own expense including all the resultant shipping costs (or refund 100% of your money and cover the return shipping costs when you send back the cue and ask for a refund if they refused to change the wrap to what you requested and paid for).
For your butt taper request that wasn't exact but was close, it is hard to tell from your description but it sounds like this may be a case where it was within reasonable variance and you should just accept it. You probably weren't specific enough with all the exact measurements along the butt that you required.
If you ordered a cue to be exactly like another the cue maker had made, and it comes with a different wrap color and material, well then that isn't exactly like the other one now is it. They need to fix it totally at their own expense including all the resultant shipping costs, or refund 100% of your money and cover the return shipping costs when you send back the cue and ask for a refund. Same thing if they used different woods, or added or subtracted or changed the location of inlays, etc.
If you asked for a radial joint and got a 3/8 x 10, they need to fix it totally at their own expense including all the resultant shipping costs, or refund 100% of your money and cover the return shipping costs when you send back the cue and ask for a refund. However, there are a couple of different radial joints and if you end up with the one you didn't prefer I would say that is on you.
The easy way to prevent these misunderstandings, and to make your legal case easy to collect on if it ultimately has to come to that, is to make sure that everything is in writing. Emails are probably ok. In the email that includes all the specifics of the order, make sure you are very detailed and specific about everything. Make sure you include what amounts are to be due when. Make sure that you state that you will not accept any changes to or deviations from what you requested and was previously agreed on unless it is approved by you in writing through email. Make sure that you state that you have the right to refuse to accept the cue and get an immediate full refund if the cue is not exactly as requested, or if the cue is not completed and delivered within 3 months (or whatever time you think is reasonable) of the promised delivery date (make sure the promised delivery date is in writing also). Alternately, you can stipulate a 5% discount for every month that it goes past the promised delivery date or something like that.
There are tons of ways you can work out the deal, but what is important is that you are very detailed and specific, everything is in writing, and you get in writing back from the cue maker that he is agreeing in full to the deal. This leaves no wiggle room for the cue maker to screw you in any way at all, and if they end up screwing you anyway, it makes you case air tight and quick and easy to win if you have to take them to court.
I've been in this game for quite awhile now, and have ordered a lot of cues from the makers. I won't settle for anything different than what I've requested...period. I am spending good money and I want a great cue. I try not to deal with hacks that promise you the moon and give you nothing.
I do understand time frames for cue makers, and have had relatively few live up to the quoted delivery. That usually doesn't bother me, unless it gets too far out of hand.
I think that there are also many fine makers out there. Great cues, reasonable prices, fair waiting times. The thing I think people need to keep in mind is that you should be very active in communicating your needs to the maker. You have to know if he is understanding exactly what you want, and you need to know exactly what you will receive before it shows up in the mail.
I have had great luck with cue makers ever since I started understanding the process.
Let me tell you who to try. I have had absolutely phenomenal luck with Jerry Rauenzahn. He is a great guy that communicates well, can make virtually anything you ask for, keeps in touch with you during the whole process and will ask questions, rather than just deciding "what you want" for you.
I believe he sent me a sketch of what I was going to get prior to him starting my cue, and then a couple pics during the process. He charged me a very reasonable price for his work, and I feel I got a lot of bang for my buck. I was quoted one year on the delivery. Wait for it.................. I received the cue exactly one year from the start date, to the day!
I've probably shot myself in the foot with this recommendation, as now, I'll probably have a longer lead time for the next cue I order from him, but Jerry is such a stand up guy that I don't mind at all.
Good luck in your future endeavors!
I do understand time frames for cue makers, and have had relatively few live up to the quoted delivery. That usually doesn't bother me, unless it gets too far out of hand.
I think that there are also many fine makers out there. Great cues, reasonable prices, fair waiting times. The thing I think people need to keep in mind is that you should be very active in communicating your needs to the maker. You have to know if he is understanding exactly what you want, and you need to know exactly what you will receive before it shows up in the mail.
I have had great luck with cue makers ever since I started understanding the process.
Let me tell you who to try. I have had absolutely phenomenal luck with Jerry Rauenzahn. He is a great guy that communicates well, can make virtually anything you ask for, keeps in touch with you during the whole process and will ask questions, rather than just deciding "what you want" for you.
I believe he sent me a sketch of what I was going to get prior to him starting my cue, and then a couple pics during the process. He charged me a very reasonable price for his work, and I feel I got a lot of bang for my buck. I was quoted one year on the delivery. Wait for it.................. I received the cue exactly one year from the start date, to the day!
I've probably shot myself in the foot with this recommendation, as now, I'll probably have a longer lead time for the next cue I order from him, but Jerry is such a stand up guy that I don't mind at all.
Good luck in your future endeavors!
You should get what you asked/payed for period! It is up to you to make sure the cuemaker understands what you want. Putting things in writting goes a long way to negate misunderstandings.
I am curious, are you dealing with new makers? Or more experienced makers. Being new myself, I know getting things right the first time takes experience.
Wish you better luck in the future!
Larry
I am curious, are you dealing with new makers? Or more experienced makers. Being new myself, I know getting things right the first time takes experience.
Wish you better luck in the future!
Larry
I know a few makers that don't like to discuss the cue UNTIL they have a written request first. After that, any conversation about changes have to be resent in writing as well... Makes good sense
"what do you expect from custom cue builders"
I like straight cues and that's about all I expect from a custom cue maker.
I usually don't get points and all that nonsense, my cues are all for playing
not just to be looked at, so a straight cue is about all I expect.
I like straight cues and that's about all I expect from a custom cue maker.
I usually don't get points and all that nonsense, my cues are all for playing
not just to be looked at, so a straight cue is about all I expect.
My take:
Custom Cue Builder - Takes order and build to spec. Your selection of woods, colors, dimensions, inlays etc etc
Custom Cue Seller - Maker who builds what he wants and offers for sale.
Problem is, a cue seller should NEVER build a cue for a specific buyer. Who says you will like it? Those cues should be sold via webpage or whatever, so whomever likes it can buy it.
My opinion, its arrogance. Makers think they are so good, that you will be happy with whatever they want to give you.
Custom Cue Builder - Takes order and build to spec. Your selection of woods, colors, dimensions, inlays etc etc
Custom Cue Seller - Maker who builds what he wants and offers for sale.
Problem is, a cue seller should NEVER build a cue for a specific buyer. Who says you will like it? Those cues should be sold via webpage or whatever, so whomever likes it can buy it.
My opinion, its arrogance. Makers think they are so good, that you will be happy with whatever they want to give you.
I have had two custom cues made and both turned out exactly as I had requested. One was from Jacoby (took forever and two days) and the other was from Bill Stelzenmuller (fast turnaround and charged me less than expected), Bill gives a lifetime warranty, never over charges, and is the only cue maker I know that will give a full refund if you are not 100% satisfied. I have played with and owned many very expensive and well known cues and his will play alongside them for a fraction of the price.
I have said this a few times over the years:
Cue makers are at fault for any miscommunications, even if the customer is calling every week and changing their mind. They must have a top down system in place to communciate with the customer. They should all have a build sheet/drawing that gets shared with the customer. It is rev controlled, like an engineering drawing. Both parties sign off on it. All the specs are on this drawing. Woods, size, weight, price, etc. It protects both parties. No more bs such as "I wanted xyz", or "You told me xyz". Its right there, in drawing format.
After a few back and forhts, the parties will agree to freeze the design. No further changes allowed. If the customer requests a change, charge him extra because its after the design freeze. If the cue maker does not produce what was on the drawing, the customer should not take delivery.
Drawings are the universal language of designing anything and everything. Get rid of all the verbal stuff, and back and forth emails. Put it all in a drawing.
End rant
Cue makers are at fault for any miscommunications, even if the customer is calling every week and changing their mind. They must have a top down system in place to communciate with the customer. They should all have a build sheet/drawing that gets shared with the customer. It is rev controlled, like an engineering drawing. Both parties sign off on it. All the specs are on this drawing. Woods, size, weight, price, etc. It protects both parties. No more bs such as "I wanted xyz", or "You told me xyz". Its right there, in drawing format.
After a few back and forhts, the parties will agree to freeze the design. No further changes allowed. If the customer requests a change, charge him extra because its after the design freeze. If the cue maker does not produce what was on the drawing, the customer should not take delivery.
Drawings are the universal language of designing anything and everything. Get rid of all the verbal stuff, and back and forth emails. Put it all in a drawing.
End rant
I have said this a few times over the years:
Cue makers are at fault for any miscommunications, even if the customer is calling every week and changing their mind. They must have a top down system in place to communciate with the customer. They should all have a build sheet/drawing that gets shared with the customer. It is rev controlled, like an engineering drawing. Both parties sign off on it. All the specs are on this drawing. Woods, size, weight, price, etc. It protects both parties. No more bs such as "I wanted xyz", or "You told me xyz". Its right there, in drawing format.
After a few back and forhts, the parties will agree to freeze the design. No further changes allowed. If the customer requests a change, charge him extra because its after the design freeze. If the cue maker does not produce what was on the drawing, the customer should not take delivery.
Drawings are the universal language of designing anything and everything. Get rid of all the verbal stuff, and back and forth emails. Put it all in a drawing.
End rant
I did that both times.
The first cue was ordered at 19.0 oz with 13 mm shafts. I received 20.5 oz and 13.25 mm shafts. I received the cue the day before I was scheduled for back surgery. The Szamboti owners in the pool room talked me into accepting the cue because theirs were all that weight and I would learn to like the weight. My cue was not a Szamboti and I never learned to like that weight on that cue.
The second cue was just a 4P4V cue with a linen wrap. So no drawing was required. But I sent pictures of a cue with the colors I wanted. I received a cue with the ugliest luminescent green veneers I have ever seen. By the time I received the cue, the cuemaker had stopped making cues and stiffed the other people for their deposits. So there was no means for returning the cue. To top it off, the cuemaker asked that I not post pictures of the cue on AZB, even if I was going to say nice things about it.
End of my rant, for today.
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The maple and linen goofs are pretty bad.
The taper being off, that's a shame they accepted. Asking a maker to change their tapers is a roll of the dice at best.
The pin, shame on them for accepting if they don't have the necessary tooling.
The jps, hopefully you didn't get charged!
I have said this a few times over the years:
Cue makers are at fault for any miscommunications, even if the customer is calling every week and changing their mind. They must have a top down system in place to communciate with the customer. They should all have a build sheet/drawing that gets shared with the customer. It is rev controlled, like an engineering drawing. Both parties sign off on it. All the specs are on this drawing. Woods, size, weight, price, etc. It protects both parties. No more bs such as "I wanted xyz", or "You told me xyz". Its right there, in drawing format.
After a few back and forhts, the parties will agree to freeze the design. No further changes allowed. If the customer requests a change, charge him extra because its after the design freeze. If the cue maker does not produce what was on the drawing, the customer should not take delivery.
Drawings are the universal language of designing anything and everything. Get rid of all the verbal stuff, and back and forth emails. Put it all in a drawing.
End rant
The above is the best response yet in in this discussion.
Build sheet
Everything in writing
Extra charge for changes/additions
Signatures
AGREED!!!
I have built many houses, every single house I had to draw the designs.
Then the designs often went straight to an Engineer who I would work with and sign off on my designs or make changes. Engineering is only required on certain parts of the house.
Once the Engineer signed off, the prints were then BLUEPRINTED so they could not be changed.
Then with two copies I would go to the City and submit them for building permits, these copies are all still with the City and they keep them indefinitely.
If I changed one thing, I had to go back to the city and submit the changes.
NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH A CUSTOMER, THE CITY, THE BUILDING INSPECTORS OR THE FANTASTIC SUBCONTRACTORS that I hired year after year.
WRITING IT OUT WORKS!!!
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I never did hear from the OP,,,,,WHAT WAS SAID WHEN YOU TOLD THEM YOU GOT THE WRONG CUE?
If you made a court case like someone suggested, this would be the first question from the Judge, if you answered the way you did with me he would tell you to get out of his Courtroom, sorry to tell you this but it's meant to help you AND the cue builder in question.
I have a feeling someone out there has the Cue you ordered and you have theirs, not your fault at all but communication is your Friend.
Thanks and have a great day.
Missing Link
What is missing from almost all of these "Criticize the Cuemaker" threads is what I alluded to in my first response: It depends who you are dealing with. The other element is the customer.
Who are you dealing with? -
At last count there were close to 850 people calling themselves active cuemakers. That list ranged from full-time cuemakers with decades of experience who made hundreds and hundreds of cues, to cue assemblers buying pre-made blanks and components all the way down to people who are owners of the Hightower book and dvds and have very little experience..
Unfortunately, ALL of these people get lumped together in these Slam The Custom Cuemaker discussions and the other side of the story is seldom heard.
Many of these stories describing poor experiences are from people who have dealt with someone with limited knowledge and oftentimes no business acumen.
When I have had custom cues built, the cuemaker has provided a detailed build sheet for completion by both parties or I have sent written detailed specifications to the cuemaker.
The Customer -
The timeframe in which ANY project in ANY trade or profession is completed is flexible and a customer should not hold a cuemaker to a deadline. Things get in the way, one being life events, others pertaining to customer interruptions such as phone calls, reading and responding to emails, satisfying photo requests, plus unscheduled in-and-out repair work, machine repairs, mistakes, problems with materials, and so-on.
Pictures and updates are nice to receive but every email and every picture is time away from building a cue.
Changes should be in writing and the costs involved fully discussed. For example, if the change involves adding inlays, a different wrap, or a change in materials, it must be discussed and the upcharge determined. If you don't pin down the additional cost and only THINK it is going to be/should be X and it turns-out to be 2X that is the customer's fault.
Other changes, ones that might appear minor or simple to you, the non-cuemaker, might actually be very involved.
I would also be very careful about supplying cuemakers with materials. If you do, even with their blessing, you are taking-on responsibility for the quality and workability of those components not to mention delays and associated added labor costs.
Here is my motto: Happy cuemakers build nice cues. My recommendation is to not bother a cuemaker for progress reports, pictures, changes, etc.
But to close, I want to emphasize that there are too many people holding themselves out as cuemakers and without their bios, the public has no idea of their background and experience.
What is missing from almost all of these "Criticize the Cuemaker" threads is what I alluded to in my first response: It depends who you are dealing with. The other element is the customer.
Who are you dealing with? -
At last count there were close to 850 people calling themselves active cuemakers. That list ranged from full-time cuemakers with decades of experience who made hundreds and hundreds of cues, to cue assemblers buying pre-made blanks and components all the way down to people who are owners of the Hightower book and dvds and have very little experience..
Unfortunately, ALL of these people get lumped together in these Slam The Custom Cuemaker discussions and the other side of the story is seldom heard.
Many of these stories describing poor experiences are from people who have dealt with someone with limited knowledge and oftentimes no business acumen.
When I have had custom cues built, the cuemaker has provided a detailed build sheet for completion by both parties or I have sent written detailed specifications to the cuemaker.
The Customer -
The timeframe in which ANY project in ANY trade or profession is completed is flexible and a customer should not hold a cuemaker to a deadline. Things get in the way, one being life events, others pertaining to customer interruptions such as phone calls, reading and responding to emails, satisfying photo requests, plus unscheduled in-and-out repair work, machine repairs, mistakes, problems with materials, and so-on.
Pictures and updates are nice to receive but every email and every picture is time away from building a cue.
Changes should be in writing and the costs involved fully discussed. For example, if the change involves adding inlays, a different wrap, or a change in materials, it must be discussed and the upcharge determined. If you don't pin down the additional cost and only THINK it is going to be/should be X and it turns-out to be 2X that is the customer's fault.
Other changes, ones that might appear minor or simple to you, the non-cuemaker, might actually be very involved.
I would also be very careful about supplying cuemakers with materials. If you do, even with their blessing, you are taking-on responsibility for the quality and workability of those components not to mention delays and associated added labor costs.
Here is my motto: Happy cuemakers build nice cues. My recommendation is to not bother a cuemaker for progress reports, pictures, changes, etc.
But to close, I want to emphasize that there are too many people holding themselves out as cuemakers and without their bios, the public has no idea of their background and experience.
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