What Do You Look For in a Pool Instructor

lfigueroa said:
One comment I would like to make is that I believe the higher the playing level of the student the fewer instructors there are out there who can effectively help them.

At the lower levels almost any decent player can help the tyro. Moderately skilled players can be helped by good instructors. Higher speed guys need to be careful whom they pick because they’re already pretty good playing the way they do. The wrong instruction can actually set them back.

I have seen and heard of this happening to several guys. They go to an instructor with good or even great credentials and then they either struggle and eventually go back to what they were doing or develop a permanent hitch in their stoke and never find their way back.

Lou Figueroa
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Ye you see this in golf all the time. A talented guy doing a lot of winning goes to a coach, they try to overhaul their technique and it fails then the guy never gets his original form back and he's done. Countless guys went through this. One, Mike Malaska, turned into an instructor of the year because of it. Sadly, he found his own secret sauce he had as a young player once his career was already stolen from him. Bobby Clampett is another one who was told his swing had more moving parts than an orchestra. Too bad once they took out all the extra movement they broke his swing and ruined his game.

Same can easily happen in pool. A lot of guys have talent and find a natural way to play. Then they get lured by statements like "if you can play this well like that, if you stand and stroke 'right' you could be an all timer".... aaaaaaand it's gone.

I think there is entirely too much stroke overhauling done by most instructors. And like I said, it's not like they are changing things that don't work, it's just that what one master instructor teaches as gospel, another deems a stroke flaw.
 
BasementDweller said:
I've never encountered a single player that got that much better in a day, in any sport, or in any other personal endeavor. Life doesn't work like that. I suppose many players don't know this, but us players on AZ Billiards do.

To be taken seriously, your claim should be that you can identify the changes needed in order to quickly improve your game which can lead to you climbing up the rankings.
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Ye but you get much more than a mere glimpse in the first lesson. I've seen it in my own students in several sports. Obv, the lower the initial level, the bigger jump can be made in a single lesson, but big jumps can be made.

You are right though.... the real improvement and level up happens over a period of weeks after the lesson. But the skill level up is apparent day of.

I have a student right now that is up to an SL5 and a strong one at that. He started playing last summer and was a 3 when I met him in January. We had several lessons but two stand out as clear level-up lessons where he was stroking it much better almost instantly. One was stance and grip related. The other was all about the shoulder and the transition and effortless force production.

If a player has issues with grip, stance, force production, which can be remedied quickly, there is no reason why they couldn't basically be playing like a level higher player the next day. This guy did. Twice. Other similarly (un)skilled players can as well. I believe Matt's claim 100%. Seen it myself in pool, golf, and basketball.
 
Notice part 1 is after a couple of lessons. Notice the work still required on stance then the introduction to The Grip. All of which can be covered in an hour. However it's not absorbed completely. Start over and spend a week rebuilding the stance and how you get into it. Then have coach review. Coach decides if you're ready to rebuild the Grip.
 
poolnut7879 said:
The reality is most people don't understand how much time it takes to become proficient to master a craft or aren't willing to put the time in.
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And neither does Billiards About. If he had a clue maybe he'd wouldn't make absurd claims about B's becoming A's after a one day group clinic.
Would anyone like to buy any swampland?
 
Lost count long ago, or never kept one but I have had dozens of instructors. Obviously not all in pool. I need to respect the instructor. He needs to respect me enough to listen to what I am saying. If I don't have good two-way communication with someone we are unlikely to get anywhere.

Some good instructors I can tell we would be oil and water. Far too different personalities. I get that impression of the man responsible for this thread, Mr Beeler. He might be the best instructor in the world however my impression is that we wouldn't work well together. I would jump at a chance to take lessons from Joe Villalpando. First, he understands pool as few do. Second, we get along well together having similar backgrounds.

Locally our own JoeyA is an excellent instructor for starting to midlevel players. He has been a student of the game for longer than most on here have been born. He is patient, softspoken, an excellent communicator.

Something I haven't seen in this thread yet, an instructor needs multiple ways to explain something. When playing instructor I had three to five ways to approach anything I was trying to teach. If one explanation didn't click with a person, another would.

A chuckle about instructing, I was sent up the state to train two in-house men for eight or ten weeks. The first day we had just met then we went out. First thing, I decided to teach them how to spread insulating cement, fan mud. It takes a specialized trowel and I had enough tools in my box that I could supply them with two of the smaller size while I demonstrated with a larger trowel. While they weren't saying anything, I couldn't help noticing they were unhappy and getting more unhappy all the time. I asked what was the matter. "It is easier with the big trowel." "Yeah." I handed over the big trowel without a word. I made each of them stay with it for about five minutes. The big trowel is about ten times harder to use than the little one. From then on they knew I wasn't trying to showboat at their expense and we got along well and teaching went well. One became a lifelong friend.

When I helped them put together a pair of tool kits one thing missing from the list was the big trowel!(grin)

Hu
 
sparkle84 said:
And neither does Billiards About. If he had a clue maybe he'd wouldn't make absurd claims about B's becoming A's after a one day group clinic.
Would anyone like to buy any swampland?
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I agree!

Trial and error has taken me from a sears pool cue to black boar to my current javelin cue!

Went from 18 ounces to 26 ounces trying to get my weight and balance correct?

Went from Balance point 6 inches before my grip to 6 inches behind!

Went from wrapless to elephant ear to lizard to Irish linen which I hated! Hands sweat too much and the linen gets soaking wet versus leather being able to wipe down and not get damp.

I went from playing by feel to ghost ball to make up for being a weekend warrior! I go long periods of time with out hitting pool balls! Got to work to pay the bills!

Best to find a group of like minded people and share information! Test hit each other's equipment! Learn various tips and training systems! I even bought the wrist stabilizer to experiment! Tried too many gloves to name! Tried aiming systems! Tried side arm like Keith and Bustamante!

It's been fun!

Kd



Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
 
WobblyStroke said:
Ye but you get much more than a mere glimpse in the first lesson. I've seen it in my own students in several sports. Obv, the lower the initial level, the bigger jump can be made in a single lesson, but big jumps can be made.

You are right though.... the real improvement and level up happens over a period of weeks after the lesson. But the skill level up is apparent day of.

I have a student right now that is up to an SL5 and a strong one at that. He started playing last summer and was a 3 when I met him in January. We had several lessons but two stand out as clear level-up lessons where he was stroking it much better almost instantly. One was stance and grip related. The other was all about the shoulder and the transition and effortless force production.

If a player has issues with grip, stance, force production, which can be remedied quickly, there is no reason why they couldn't basically be playing like a level higher player the next day. This guy did. Twice. Other similarly (un)skilled players can as well. I believe Matt's claim 100%. Seen it myself in pool, golf, and basketball.
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That's fair but his guarantee was directed at Lou, who's been playing a very respectable game of pool for -- I'd guess over 50 years. If you think about it, it's actually audaciously presumptuous to tell a player like him that you could for sure make them better in just an hour. I mean -- maybe you could (which I doubt), but maybe you have no clue what they've already encountered on their pool-playing journey. Maybe just maybe, Lou could help him become a better instructor in just an hour.
 
BasementDweller said:
That's fair but his guarantee was directed at Lou, who's been playing a very respectable game of pool for -- I'd guess over 50 years. If you think about it, it's actually audaciously presumptuous to tell a player like him that you could for sure make them better in just an hour. I mean -- maybe you could (which I doubt), but maybe you have no clue what they've already encountered on their pool-playing journey. Maybe just maybe, Lou could help him become a better instructor in just an hour.
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Ah, I missed the context.
For an experienced player we run into that diminishing returns problem as far as development goes.

I'd say it is likely and even easy to turn a 3 into a 4 or a 4 into a 5. But if a guy has a respectable game of pool, there's barely anything you can do in a day that will be more than barely noticeable...and even that is an achievement.
 
WobblyStroke said:
Ah, I missed the context.
For an experienced player we run into that diminishing returns problem as far as development goes.

I'd say it is likely and even easy to turn a 3 into a 4 or a 4 into a 5. But if a guy has a respectable game of pool, there's barely anything you can do in a day that will be more than barely noticeable...and even that is an achievement.
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I do lose sight of the learning curve. I guess I don't consider the plight of the lower skilled players while I'm on AZ. I think AZ has a nice collection of more advanced players, along with lesser skilled but knowledgeable players. This isn't your typical Wednesday night APA group.
 
WobblyStroke said:
Ah, I missed the context.
For an experienced player we run into that diminishing returns problem as far as development goes.

I'd say it is likely and even easy to turn a 3 into a 4 or a 4 into a 5. But if a guy has a respectable game of pool, there's barely anything you can do in a day that will be more than barely noticeable...and even that is an achievement.
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From what I've seen I always thought the most important thing was to turn a 3 into a 4 but then teach him to play like a 2.
 
BasementDweller said:
I do lose sight of the learning curve. I guess I don't consider the plight of the lower skilled players while I'm on AZ. I think AZ has a nice collection of more advanced players, along with lesser skilled but knowledgeable players. This isn't your typical Wednesday night APA group.
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Ye it is absolutely amazing to me some people stay as 4s for years... some decades. Mind boggling. But hey, some kids are fielding grounders and throwing out runners at first when they are 7 and others are falling out of their school desks. Those kids grow up too. And they need much guidance to make it past an SL4.
 
BasementDweller said:
That's fair but his guarantee was directed at Lou, who's been playing a very respectable game of pool for -- I'd guess over 50 years. If you think about it, it's actually audaciously presumptuous to tell a player like him that you could for sure make them better in just an hour. I mean -- maybe you could (which I doubt), but maybe you have no clue what they've already encountered on their pool-playing journey. Maybe just maybe, Lou could help him become a better instructor in just an hour.
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This is the upshot of the instructor problem. What you have is one highly configured system, meets another highly configured system for repairs and upgrades.

I wanna say "not gonna happen" (oops, said it) but that's my view...
 
lfigueroa said:
There's also a 14.1 guy on the East Coast but his name escapes me at the moment.
Lou Figueroa
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I assume you’re referring to the great Ray Martin?

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. For a player looking to really improve their fundamentals, they need to choose one of the known, proven, reputable instructors who have made a successful career of teaching pool, including having helped pro level players.

For a more advanced player looking for help with patterns, strategy and game management, a proven pro level or former pro level player with proven communication skills as an instructor is what I’d be looking for.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
I think it depends on what you’re looking for. For a player looking to really improve their fundamentals, they need to choose one of the known, proven, reputable instructors who have made a successful career of teaching pool, including having helped pro level players.
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Barry Stark has the credentials with Kyren Wilson as a student.
ChristianNC also said:
For a more advanced player looking for help with patterns, strategy and game management, a proven pro level or former pro level player with proven communication skills as an instructor is what I’d be looking for.
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Stephen Hendry provides a variety of personal insights as well as from multiple guest authorities. He has proven his communication skills as a commentator.
 
Podunker said:
My two cents, I would choose Mark Wilson. Mark has been up down and all around in this billiard world. This man has experienced the whole spectrum. He worked hard to attain personal stature as a Mosconi player, has been Mosconi coach, is a college coach, has been a commentator on some of the most historic matches, his clinics involve the likes of Buddy Hall, John Schmidt, Nick Varner. Allison Fisher visits for tune-ups. If you ever take time to listen to him, he doesn't sell bullshit and shortcut promises. Everything he stands for resonates the message of all the great coaches. How much more cred do you need?
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Yah, other than the fact you’re paying this dude $200 an hour for him to ruin your game for 2 years with his stroke obsessed nonsense.
 
lfigueroa said:
Here's a very vanilla question for the board: what are your criterion for giving an instructor you money, time, and attention?

In another thread there was list of some very talented people that offer instruction: Anthony Beeler; Mark Wilson; Tor Lory; Jerry Briesath; Bert Kinster; Stan Shuffett; Max Eberle; Randy G; Little Joe; Dave Pearson; Jackie Carol; John Schmidt; Dan Louie. I suspect there are others like Sammy Diep, Demetrius Jelatis, Tommy Kennedy, Nick Varner, and Matt Sherman. There's also a 14.1 guy on the East Coast but his name escapes me at the moment.

They all have something to offer the aspiring pool player. So I am asking: what is it that you look for and would lead you to pick *one* instructor over another.

Lou Figueroa
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Can I be in the list as well please ?
Alex Lely and available for online or occasionally in USA

I think communication is most important (assuming the instructors knowledge is sufficient...or even when insufficient, that he or she knows and is still able to help with good questions)
What, when...but mostly how
 
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plague said:
Can I be in the list as well please ?
Alex Lely and available for online or occasionally in USA

I think communication is most important (assuming the instructors knowledge is sufficient...or even when insufficient, that he or she knows and is still able to help with good questions)
What, when...but mostly how
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Lol. Why would you go by plague?
 
BasementDweller said:
That's fair but his guarantee was directed at Lou, who's been playing a very respectable game of pool for -- I'd guess over 50 years. If you think about it, it's actually audaciously presumptuous to tell a player like him that you could for sure make them better in just an hour. I mean -- maybe you could (which I doubt), but maybe you have no clue what they've already encountered on their pool-playing journey. Maybe just maybe, Lou could help him become a better instructor in just an hour.
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I actually didn’t take it that way on first reading, BD, but I went back and I think you’re right : -o

Lou Figueroa
shocked
shocked I say
 
ChrisinNC said:
I assume you’re referring to the great Ray Martin?

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. For a player looking to really improve their fundamentals, they need to choose one of the known, proven, reputable instructors who have made a successful career of teaching pool, including having helped pro level players.

For a more advanced player looking for help with patterns, strategy and game management, a proven pro level or former pro level player with proven communication skills as an instructor is what I’d be looking for.
Click to expand...

No, there’s a guy named Michael F-something that I was thinking about.

Lou Figueroa
 
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