What do you think holds most players back ?

[ENGLISH!]

I am close to a pro level in Foosball (baby foot), also i played good table tennis but never continued with it. May i ask why are you asking?

I was asking because in many other sports there is no real time for much thinking once the play starts. It is mostly reactionary. Now I'm not saying that one does not think in other sports. I'm just saying that when the ball is moving you have to react & your mind can not be full of thoughts that do not directly apply to the task at hand. Block that Foosbal shot. Return that table tennis slam just sent your way. When you are practicing you can think of different techniques & moves, but when you are playing it is time to play & not think about the techniques.

Pool, golf, bowling etc. are sports where YOU put the ball into motion & there is no defensive opponent to what you do with the ball. Your arsenal of what you can do with the ball can be huge. However, you can only shoot one at a time.

I think what CJ is saying, & I totally understand, is that if you shoot a 9mm hand gun every day & become proficient with it from say 40 feet away why would you need a high powered rifle from 30 feet away. Now when a shot does come up from say 100 yards away the high powered rifle is certainly more appropriate & if you have practiced with it say once a week you should be able to shoot that 100 yard shot when needed.

However, if you shoot with a different weapon everyday, are you truely proficient with any one of them or... are you just very good at all of them.

I believe, CJ is saying become proficient with one shot & you will rarely need any other shot, but when you do need another, by all means shoot it.

Just my take on it.

Best Regards,

 

[naji]

I think there are two main things that hold players back.

First, accepting the idea that there is a ceiling to how well you can play. I accepted this idea early on and while it wasn't something I was always conscious of, it was a thought that was always somewhere in the back of my mind. So when I would run into shots that would give me trouble on the practice table I wouldn't attack them with the same determination that I do now. Instead, I would just sort of think to myself, well I guess I'm just not capable of making that shot consistently. I now believe with all my heart that had I picked up this game at an earlier age I could have been as good as anybody.

Secondly, figuring out the right things to be practicing on is so very important. For me personally, I've found that since I only have a limited amount of time to practice I focus all most all of my time working on my cueing and the one thing that I try to avoid as much as possible is wasting my time shooting easy shots. One thing that I constantly find myself shaking my head at is people that do drills that do not challenge their shot making ability AT ALL.

For instance, the wagon wheel drill was mentioned in either this thread or another current thread here on AZ. Pocketing the ball in this drill is so easy; to me it's a complete waste of time. I know lots of people disagree with me on this, but I always make sure that I am testing my potting ability on all drills. One interesting thing that I like to do is play the 9 ball ghost, but before each shot I'll move the cue ball further away from the object ball (keeping the same angle).

Switching my focus from cue ball control over to ball pocketing and just solid cueing over the course of the past couple of years has improved my game (or at least my ability) so much that I almost can't believe it. Now you may not agree with my findings on drills, and shot making, and cue ball control and all that, but you will probably agree that unlocking the secret to proper practice is a crucial part of getting better at this game. We all have to figure this out for ourselves and really it's probably the most rewarding part of the game. Well, at least for me it has been.

Like i said earlier, very advanced players have different practice needs than B, C, and D players.
I agree with you 100% on how to practice and i posted a while back, you must practice potting, and i suggested set up one long shot say spot shot and shoot that every day same exact way, say 1st week no english, just role CB, what you will find out some days you miss some days you will make all attempts; this will help you narrow down the reason you miss and eventually know why you miss and adjust, will help to write notes for every day. Once that test is done move on with fast speed, then with english and so on until you reach the 4000 shots varieties

Main reason for not reaching higher level is You i quote "accepting the idea that there is a ceiling to how well you can play", also you mentioned you have limited time.

You are dead wrong about having to start young to be good; all you need a good instructor to shorten your agony and enlighten the way for you to speed the learning process and learn all secrets.

 

[naji]

I was asking because in many other sports there is no real time for much thinking once the play starts. It is mostly reactionary. Now I'm not saying that one does not think in other sports. I'm just saying that when the ball is moving you have to react & your mind can not be full of thoughts that do not directly apply to the task at hand. Block that Foosbal shot. Return that table tennis slam just sent your way. When you are practicing you can think of different techniques & moves, but when you are playing it is time to play & not think about the techniques.

Ok easy shots close to pocket a diamond or two between OB & CB close to straight not big deal, but as aim errors narrows like up table OB, or near rail shot, or you need apply english, or swerve issue, throw, squirt if you do not think there will be high probability you will miss, or make the shot. But for superior accuracy and high consistency one has to take his/her time an think of all possibilities that could go wrong. Unfortunately we pay rent for a 9x4.5 foot table and balls do spread to the far side especially one pocket game.

Pool, golf, bowling etc. are sports where YOU put the ball into motion & there is no defensive opponent to what you do with the ball. Your arsenal of what you can do with the ball can be huge. However, you can only shoot one at a time.

I find pool has much more error possibilities of making a ball than any other game, with aim complication it makes it even harder. Golf and bowling aim errors a bit forgiving when you are at the T

I think what CJ is saying, & I totally understand, is that if you shoot a 9mm hand gun every day & become proficient with it from say 40 feet away why would you need a high powered rifle from 30 feet away. Now when a shot does come up from say 100 yards away the high powered rifle is certainly more appropriate & if you have practiced with it say once a week you should be able to shoot that 100 yard shot when needed.

However, if you shoot with a different weapon everyday, are you truely proficient with any one of them or... are you just very good at all of them.

Sure i am proficient with all 4000 shots any kind of english, speed, stun, angles, english far away, close you name it, do i miss due to new cloth, dirty spot, humidity sure, and of course due to bad stroke. All it takes is learn it systematically like i did, it becomes natural after a while

I believe, CJ is saying become proficient with one shot & you will rarely need any other shot, but when you do need another, by all means shoot it.
How can you shoot a different shot with all kind of possible english without learning it and put hours into it


Just my take on it.

Best Regards,

Thanks Rick, below are items you mentioned in your post:

 

[BasementDweller]

Like i said earlier, very advanced players have different practice needs than B, C, and D players.
I agree with you 100% on how to practice and i posted a while back, you must practice potting, and i suggested set up one long shot say spot shot and shoot that every day same exact way, say 1st week no english, just role CB, what you will find out some days you miss some days you will make all attempts; this will help you narrow down the reason you miss and eventually know why you miss and adjust, will help to write notes for every day. Once that test is done move on with fast speed, then with english and so on until you reach the 4000 shots varieties

Main reason for not reaching higher level is You i quote "accepting the idea that there is a ceiling to how well you can play", also you mentioned you have limited time.

You are dead wrong about having to start young to be good; all you need a good instructor to shorten your agony and enlighten the way for you to speed the learning process and learn all secrets.

I didn't exactly say you have to start young to be good. I think the jury is still out on that. This is the only part of the natural ability conversation I'm still uncertain about.

But I wasn't even referring to that. For me, it's just simple math. When you are younger and have less responsibilities you can play more pool. More pool is a good thing Getting a later start, puts you at a huge disadvantage even if you believe there is no scientific reason that older people can't learn new skills just as well as young people can.

My hunch is that there's an advantage to being young when it comes to mastering certain physical motions. It may be the whole myelin thing but I'm not sure. I'm still open minded on that.


***Actually after rereading what I just wrote - I know that you can start late and be great. There's no doubt about this. What I'm uncertain about it how much of an advantage is it to start out at a young age. Is it just a time thing, meaning is it just a head start these young players get? Or is there a physiological advantage. My hunch is it's a bit of both.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Naji,

With all due respect, I've been shooting with all englishes very successfully for nearly 46 years and I never think about the amount of deflection or swerve unless I am purposely shooting a masse or mini masse. I only 'think' about the speed & amount of spin I want to put on the cue ball along with the amount of 'hit' I want on the OB so as to pocket the OB & then get the position I want.

The squirt & swerve compensations happen on a subconsciuos perception level. I would never 'think' to presume that I could consciously perform ALL of the technical calculations it takes to successfully execute such a shot, plus as you say the effects of the cloth & the humidity. Those things fall under the realm of 'feel' & 'touch'.

If you can handle all of those technical parameters by 'thinking' your way through them, then more power to you & you are more of an intellect than I am.

The only negative thing that comes into my mind is when the possibility of a scrath or moving a ball that I do not want to move comes into play. Then I decide how I am going to deal with it & from then on it's back to all positive thoughts. Except deep down in places that we do not want to think about or talk about, there is fear of failure. It is that fear of failure that pushes me to succeed.

I guess we just play different styles of pool.

Good Luck to you on your journey.

Best Regards,

 

[Rio19]

Natural ability.

I have to disgree with you there because one the Greatest Players today (Ralf Souquet) has often said he did not have natural ability he had to work hard to get his game to what it is today..

 

[naji]

I didn't exactly say you have to start young to be good. I think the jury is still out on that. This is the only part of the natural ability conversation I'm still uncertain about.

But I wasn't even referring to that. For me, it's just simple math. When you are younger and have less responsibilities you can play more pool. More pool is a good thing Getting a later start, puts you at a huge disadvantage even if you believe there is no scientific reason that older people can't learn new skills just as well as young people can.

My hunch is that there's an advantage to being young when it comes to mastering certain physical motions. It may be the whole myelin thing but I'm not sure. I'm still open minded on that.

I do not know your age, take my example, i just turned 52, I play for money all the time, but one day i play good, others i play bad, and i say why why damn it. So i decided to make my only goal last year or so is " Why i miss", i practice at home, take notes, and go to pool room and do life ammunition shots during money game to see if what i learned works under pressure or not, if it fails back to drawing board. My skill last year or so soared, finally i unlocked the mystery, am i a pro player, no, mainly due to my limited time, i cannot spare a week here or there to play tournaments, have two kids in college i need all the $$$$ i can. Am I playing high level of pool sure, it is reflective of how many balls i run in one pocket, i do run 9 ball racks too, 9 ball is the way to go to learn pool, once mastered one can shift to other games.

True, age bring health issues, and no doubt if one's hand, eye sight have diminished capabilities, their game will suffer, also true age bring other opportunities to flood our brain with lots of issues where ones conscious becomes clouded which takes big chunk out of the unconscious mind, one example, you are late going home, and wife is trying to call you, 1st thing that suffers is smooth follow through stroke...bye out the door!

Keep shooting do not stop, aim high you will get there.

 

[Island Drive]

I have to disgree with you there because one the Greatest Players today (Ralf Souquet) has often said he did not have natural ability he had to work hard to get his game to what it is today..

I've always felt the same way about Jeff Carter....

 

[BasementDweller]

I have to disgree with you there because one the Greatest Players today (Ralf Souquet) has often said he did not have natural ability he had to work hard to get his game to what it is today..

One thing is for sure: If you believe that you have gotten as good as you can possibly get, you will be right!

On the other hand, if you believe you can find a way to improve, you may be right or wrong.

The second approach has more possibilities. I like that one better.

 

[Rio19]

I've always felt the same way about Jeff Carter....

Don't know much about Hockey!!:smile:

 

[Rio19]

One thing is for sure: If you believe that you have gotten as good as you can possibly get, you will be right!

On the other hand, if you believe you can find a way to improve, you may be right or wrong.

The second approach has more possibilities. I like that one better.

I like the second approach a lot better as well. I remember when I could not hit a shot two inches straight in the pocket. I am sure I did not have natural ability but I did have a drive to learn. I think the biggest thing that holds players back is there pride.

Most players like to think they know everything their is to know about the game. Efren Reyes said he learned from players of all levels and that was when he was ranked number 1 in the world.

 

[naji]

Mr. Naji,

With all due respect, I've been shooting with all englishes very successfully for nearly 46 years and I never think about the amount of deflection or swerve unless I am purposely shooting a masse or mini masse. I only 'think' about the speed & amount of spin I want to put on the cue ball along with the amount of 'hit' I want on the OB so as to pocket the OB & then get the position I want.

The squirt & swerve compensations happen on a subconsciuos perception level. I would never 'think' to presume that I could consciously perform ALL of the technical calculations it takes to successfully execute such a shot, plus as you say the effects of the cloth & the humidity. Those things fall under the realm of 'feel' & 'touch'.

If you can handle all of those technical parameters by 'thinking' your way through them, then more power to you & you are more of an intellect than I am.

The only negative thing that comes into my mind is when the possibility of a scrath or moving a ball that I do not want to move comes into play. Then I decide how I am going to deal with it & from then on it's back to all positive thoughts. Except deep down in places that we do not want to think about or talk about, there is fear of failure. It is that fear of failure that pushes me to succeed.

I guess we just play different styles of pool.

Good Luck to you on your journey.

Best Regards,

No problem Rick, we talk, we address what we know, and only thing that separates us is experience, yours could be wiser than mine in certain subject and i gain knowledge, or mine could be wiser and you gain knowledge. It is hard to explain pool just in writing.

When i say think, i do not mean i spend a min or two thinking, but i stop, and consider what errors could hamper making the OB if key shot and $$$ on the line. One example i am sure you know, a shot CB far from OB that requires english, another OB is making you bridge much shorter than normal of which from Dr. Dave site, and experience it increases squirt amount, if you go down quick and just shoot it without this consideration you will miss, especially if OB is far from pocket, or the other option shoot it with what you know best, of which position play might suffer. Take another example, OB at spot shot, and you want to shoot with speed rolling, no english CB up table at kitchen, one thing can go wrong, if you hit too hard, or not used to cloth, CB could slide all the way and stun OB and miss the pot due to throw, or wants draw shot and end up stun draw
Sure the decision is instant at times, but must be considered, and many opportunities like that, that makes us inconsistent, we rush the shot, and say after the miss, oh i did not stoke it, or did not allow for throw, or, or or...4000 possibilities exists in pool game.
So for easy shots close to the hole i just go down and shoot quick too.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Naji,

I hear you. We're all good. That's what a discussion forum is all about. Discussing different topics.

CJ has helped me by adding 3 different tools to my tool box & the TOI may very well become my predominant shot, I'm not sure quite yet, but it is not going to be put on a shelf. It's in my tool box. It already won me a game a couple of weeks ago when I had to cinch a long 'straight' shot that the the money ball, my next ball, was blocking almost 1/2 the pocket. I got down to shoot & then I remembered the TOI & 3 part pocket that goes with it, so I got up, & immediately got back down & cinched it & then shot the money ball right in behind it. It works very well.

Best Regards,

 

[naji]

I have to disgree with you there because one the Greatest Players today (Ralf Souquet) has often said he did not have natural ability he had to work hard to get his game to what it is today..

Thanks, Rio19, Natural Abilities, is really hard subject to deal with, i grabbed this from WWW

natural abilities? They are the inborn talents that are always accessible for you to use, any time and any place. By the time you are 14 or 15 years old, your natural abilities have stabilized and, barring any serious disease or physical injury that affects your brain, they will remain with you, unchanging, for your entire life. You don’t have to practice or even use them regularly to maintain them.
They often drive you into certain kinds of activities. For some people, it’s a gift for music or design, or a talent for theoretical thought. Other’s talents are more generalized, such as managing people, or abilities that make writing or teaching easy. There are certain abilities that are the most powerful and influential talents: The Driving Abilities.


Does pool requires special Natural Abilities other than a stabilized and free from any brain injuries of which majority of population have, i want to distinguish between gifted abilities (good voice, beauty) from natural ability here.

I see pool like trying to learn how to type, or play chess of which practice is the only thing that makes the unconscious mind perfect.

I guess one ability "The Driving Abilities" does it influence how far one needs to reach in pool or any other thing? not sure maybe!

 

[naji]

Mr. Naji,

I hear you. We're all good. That's what a discussion forum is all about. Discussing different topics.

CJ has helped me by adding 3 different tools to my tool box & the TOI may very well become my predominant shot, I'm not sure quite yet, but it is not going to be put on a shelf. Its' in my tool box. It already won me a game a couple of weeks ago when I had to cinch a long 'straight' shot that the the money ball, my next ball, ws blocking almost 1/2 the pocket. I got down to shot & then I remembered the TOI & 3 part pocket that goes with it so I got up & immediately got back down & cinch it & then shot the money ball right in behind it. it works very well.

Best Regards,

I always have high respect to CJ talent after all he is a pro, so what he says should be taken seriously, he puts a lot of time in it and highly appreciate him sharing it.
I like the tool box analogy it is perfect fit, just do not use metric instead of english!!!!!for the fun!!
Thanks Rick.

 

[Jaden]

No there is no such thing as a natural at the game...

Woud you then say that those with the most natural ability can afford to practice less than others? They are naturals at the game, so they have no need for hourly practice. Is this the premise you agree with?

I recently had a top tier pro tell me that I had more natural talent than most people could ever hope...

At first I was offended because, I was thinking I have worked so hard to develop the knowledge and ability that I have, but as I got to thinking about it, he wasn't saying that I was a natural at the game, there is no such thing IMO...

He was saying that I had the INNATE ability to be a top player and that I was close to being there.

Very few people have that innate ability, even fewer take the time and have the mentors and can get the knowledge in order put it into use, or they don't have enough of a love for the game to put in the time seeing that the potential reward for doing so is so pathetic.

Me, I love the game and am addicted to it. Kim and Johnny were asking me a couple of weeks ago how I can play so much pool and all I could say was that once I get on a table I can't stop playing. I am literally addicted to playing pool.

A couple of weeks ago I played 14 hours straight without ever stopping for more than 45 seconds. I didn't even take a bathroom break for 12 of the hours.

Jaden

All that being what it is, I have had a VERY hard time playing the game I am capable of under pressure (meaning any time I feel I have something to prove), I have made some recent headway in that regard thanks to someone who shall remain nameless for the time being.

 

[THE FLASH]

Me.... It's desire now.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I always have high respect to CJ talent after all he is a pro, so what he says should be taken seriously, he puts a lot of time in it and highly appreciate him sharing it.
I like the tool box analogy it is perfect fit, just do not use metric instead of english!!!!!for the fun!!
Thanks Rick.

Mr. Naji,

Thanks for the chuckle.:rotflmao1: I totally agree that playing with english is very much fun. That is partly why I will never abandon it. What is also fun is winning. If TOI can add one(1) percentage point to my winning percentage it's well worth the effort to learn it properly.

In fact if had it back in the day, I would have won even more run out trophies & MVP's. Who knows, if I had it back in the day, I might have hit the road & never have gotten married & my 4 children would not even exsist.

I'm glad I did not have it back in the day. But...I'm glad I ran into now. I just wish I would have ran into it a little bit earlier.

Thanks again for the chuckle.
Best Regards,

 

[Jaden]

Let me answer the ops question...

Me.... It's desire now.

I don't think that it's innate ability or natural talent that holds most people back from becoming better. I think it is personal choice, lack of true desire, dedication.

Almost everyone can become better and or more consistent than they are. I think innate ability prevents people from becoming top players and in some cases just super strong players.

It surely isn't practice. There are APA bangers out there that play 20-40 hours a week that will never get better than a C or B player.

It could be a combination of lack of knowledge and lack of GOOD practice for most people I would think.

But I think that the biggest hurdle for most people is DESIRE... and Dedication.

Jaden

 

[naji]

I recently had a top tier pro tell me that I had more natural talent than most people could ever hope...

At first I was offended because, I was thinking I have worked so hard to develop the knowledge and ability that I have, but as I got to thinking about it, he wasn't saying that I was a natural at the game, there is no such thing IMO...

He was saying that I had the INNATE ability to be a top player and that I was close to being there.

Very few people have that innate ability, even fewer take the time and have the mentors and can get the knowledge in order put it into use, or they don't have enough of a love for the game to put in the time seeing that the potential reward for doing so is so pathetic.

Me, I love the game and am addicted to it. Kim and Johnny were asking me a couple of weeks ago how I can play so much pool and all I could say was that once I get on a table I can't stop playing. I am literally addicted to playing pool.

A couple of weeks ago I played 14 hours straight without ever stopping for more than 45 seconds. I didn't even take a bathroom break for 12 of the hours.

Jaden

All that being what it is, I have had a VERY hard time playing the game I am capable of under pressure (meaning any time I feel I have something to prove), I have made some recent headway in that regard thanks to someone who shall remain nameless for the time being.

Hi Jaden,
"have more natural talent than most people could ever hope" did this guy win every tournament he enters in, certainly not, is he up there for sure yes.
If two pros of equal strengths play each other, i can assure you the one that have more continuous sleep that night will dominate
Other factor, free conscious, no one bothers you, no wife, no kids, no bills unpaid, employer looking for you...etc
Then level of knowledge
then how much they practice, and the proper timing between practice and the match, too much practice you will stress your brain, if it is two or three days before a match it might not be beneficial, because at this level you saturated you unconscious mind and cannot take any more learning.

Later